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As a looooong term medical player I can tell you, removing cloning not only won't fix anything, it'll make things worse. Cloning is not the problem. Cloning is a simple revival method, sure, but it doesn't work on every race, and it is easily sabotaged and destroyed. Cloning takes a long time, spits out people with brain damage and genetic defects and in the case of Vox/Slimes doesn't even work, and is extremely hard in the case of Plasmamen. Cloning has been in SS13 a VERY long time, and as someone from former H-RP Servers, it was never a source of problems. The problem we have is player mentality and the sheer NUMBER of revives you have. A Body can't be cloned for reasons? No problem SR/Defib it. Normally that's the sort of thing requiring science to really upgrade the Cloner to perform (Cloning husks for example), but as it is now Medical can do that on their own with very little issue. They Start with Defibs and SR is easy enough for chemists to make on their own. Again. Cloning itself is NOT the issue, it's oversaturation of revives coupled with a very high Power Game mentality of :"More effective to do X then Y" as opposed to roleplay. Removing cloning will not fix that nor make people roleplay, it'll just encourage them to power game even harder to avoid death. Until Mentality/Community gets more on the same page about Medium RP needing both RP -and- gamepaly, as opposed to a min-max mentality, this problem isn't gonan be fixed by a silver bullet.

Hello. Thanks for taking the time to read my suggestion! As the title states, I would like to remove cloning from medical. Reason why to removing cloning is because players now are way to dependent on it and ruining the very little roleplay we have by not taking being alive more seriously. Players (grey tides, security, and civillians) just act without the consequences of their actions, knowing full well that if they die, someone will just drag their corpse to medbay and clone them back to life. I feel like if we removed cloning, roleplay would increase, medical doctors will have more of a role on this station instead of just fixing broken ribs, chemists would be more depended on instead of making space drugs and meth all of the time. If not, maybe have it as a research thing, were they need to research whatever category it belongs too and unlock the cloning circuits and have engineering build the cloning room. TLDR: Cloning ruining role-play as players do not care about their life as cloning will bring them back to life instantly. Sorry if this was poorly written. I am here to answer any questions if I left out anything..

I'm not sure how realistic it is to do this mechanically but the idea is this: When you use the Give Karma command, instead of the person being awarded the Karma immediately, they become your "Karma Target." They are not actually rewarded Karma until the end of the round. If you use the Give Karma command again, the person you target becomes your new "Karma Target." You can switch targets as many times as you want, but only the last person you targeted gets a Karma point at the end of the round. This way, you can award Karma early in the round without having to worry about not being able to give your Karma to someone more deserving later, and you'll never be in a position where you want to award Karma to someone but you can't. I think this would encourage people to give Karma a bit more freely overall. One potential problem I can see is if people disconnect or leave a round early, I'm not sure how easy it would be to still make sure the Karma goes through in that case.

Cloning, mechanically is not a problem and in the effort to not sound like a broken record I'll skip on to elaborate other points. The primary issue we have, as I and others have said is really "Mentality. The Min-max mentality that a lot of players have had lately, exists both in departments (Scientists who deride anyone not getting RnD done in sub 5 picoseconds, Doctors who opt to just let people die and clone them cuz they can't be assed to fix their skeleton, etc.) and more in general, such as antags who focus so hard on greentexting and "Winning the game" to the point that they effectively make the game moot to begin with, because nothing happens. Like a game of DnD where the party min-maxxed and power gamed and killed their Big villain in the first session and now are left with nothing to fucking do. But the secondary and tertiary issues we have lumped onto that Community Mentality issue is, like Birdtalon said, nobody is going to take dying in a Space Fart simulator that seriously. Odds are you're gonna go "Aw god damn it..." as you death-gasp and start up youtube or salt around in D-chat until you either get revived or round ends. The Tertiary problem is simply innate to the fact we're Medium RP, we're middle between very *VERY* Different groups of people. On most RP focused or HRP servers, Death and cloning tends to be pretty strictly enforced. Clone Memory Disorder is administratively enforced, if you pop out of a clone tube going 'BOB MCDOUGLAS KILLED ME!' Odds are you;re gonna get bwoinked an told not to do that. We do not do that here. Nor do I think we should, but it's also foolish to dismiss it as a problem that brings down RP Standards overall, it's pretty hard to be immersed sometimes when people go do things like "Wow I was a nuke op just an hour ago!" Higher RP inclined crowds EXPECT that sort of stuff though, because they feel fundamentally basic to keeping a good RP environment, there has to be -some- order in the chaos, in the sameway a DM sometimes has to interject and tell his players "You would have no knowledge of that, sorry." when they start acting out of character and generally fishy. But Lower RP crowds don't want that that. They're not here to write a fuckin space novella or take part in a space soap opera, they're here to play the fuckin game, and that's just as acceptable a style too. But right now we're a "Wild West" when it comes to that sort of thing, everyone can do everything and do it all the time and it's turning into a cacophony of just utter *NOISE*, everyone is playing their own instrument to their own beat. At some point, a standard has to be developed, a point where not just staff but the community as a whole has to do something *REALLY* Hard and find a middle ground, a standard of RP procedure that the LRP crowds can accept and endure to keep from alienating the HRP crowds, and the HRP crowds need to be willing to bend a little here and there for the people are are just here to play a game. Because at some point you DO have to lay down a gentle "I'm sorry, that makes no sense for you or the theme of things." Otherwise players WILL keep running with that inch you gave them. TL;DR: There is no TLDR, and I'm sorry I made a wall.

I think that's why many here keep focusing on the RP aspect. When RPing you are trying to imagine how your character feels and how they would react based on the situation they are in as opposed to how you feel and react based on the fact that you are playing a game. But again not everyone enjoys RP...which is fine. The blessing and curse of a MRP server, you get a bit of both LRP and HRP players. I imagine as much as HRPers look at the LRPers and think "Ugh...this shit..." the LRPers look at the HRPers and think "Ugh...this shit..." It's still a more stable environment than a pure LRP server and it's not as slow and cringey as a HRP server.

The problem is that -is- removing Cloning in practicality. The state you're talking about is exactly the same state that Telescience exists in, and I can count on one hand the number of times I see that reconstructed in a month. If you make Cloning require construction it is effectively removed because everyone is going to use SR and Defibs, which are almost universally superior options in every case of revival, save for when someone has broken their entire skeleton. No one is going to be bothered to construct a usually inferior form of revival, and Geneticists will have literally no responsibilities but to fuck off in their lab (They're supposed to create and distribute Clean SR's for cloned dudes, and are SUPPOSED to handle cloning in the first place.) Cloning is already the WORST option to use in reviving someone in most circumstances, not the least because you can only revive a single body at a time, unless someone makes additional cloning pods and the time it takes to fully clone someone is not a short one (Speed-cloning is on the slate to be nerfed if it hasn't gone through already.) Consider the amount of corpse back up that medical gets when shit storms happen. Back when Cloning was the only form of revival that was a big deal, you could REALLY get bogged down in revives, especially in Blob or nuke op tier shitstorms. And there's a few ways of killing someone that leaves them unable to be cloned unless science has upgraded the machine. Reliance on Cloning isn't a problem with Cloning that's a problem with MENTALITY, that's people being LAZY and min-maxing in the same fashion as a DnD player making a Dwarf Fighter for 2 levels to get special perks before going strait Barb for max damage, strictly for numbers and not for roleplay. That's a PLAYER problem, not a mechanical one.

Tetra n Tay decking out Brigbay! @Tayswift STILL trying to wash the blood from that grey off my hands!!!

So, I do not know if such a thing like this have ever existed and got removed or something, but I just found this idea rather interesting so I thought I would share. Also, I am not sure how hard would it be to program this, but I imagine it wouldn't be too easy. Long story: So, first it would start like every normal shift. I am not entirely surely how or why, but about 15 minutes into the round the power would go off. If there are any engines online they would shut down. So no power at all. Mining, engineering, research and labor camp shuttles would also become powerless, therefore unusable. A few randomly selected people (about 5% of the station crew) would get transformed into some zombie-like creatures. They can force airlocks open and they must bite people to transform them also. Their ultimate task is to transform everyone onboard. The crew must survive without getting transformed. Around 2 hours into the round power would return (I don’t know how yet, but the crew maybe can make power return faster), and thus enabling them to call the shuttle. Alternate version is that no power comes back, but a shuttle arrives. Long story short: - No power - Zombie takeover: spread the virus vs protect the crew - Power comes back and/or shuttle arrives Victory conditions: - Crew major victory: all zombies die (nuking the station counts) - Crew minor victory: shuttle leaves with humans and no zombies on board - Stalemate: everybody dies - Zombie minor victory: shuttle leaves with no humans onboard - Zombie major victory: everyone is a zombie People in lockers and on other z-levels of course don’t count. Notes: - Shall the PDA servers go down? - Shall telecoms go down? Feel free to add anything, this is idea is... very experimental.

This, pretty much. Also, you have people who are solidly medium roleplay and are annoyed at things both the higher and lower RPers engage in. This is a concept that probably isn't ever going to change, unless we choose to go fully one direction or another. As for "well, it's obvious they're powergamers because they're overly paranoid or don't take the cloning process/dying seriously." I Kinda object to this notion. While I can understand not liking that behavior, I think this is an example of "not liking something and using roleplay as a false justification to stamp out said behavior". Much like any roleplay game, such as D&D, there's established paradigms and "laws of physics" within that universe. For SS13, there's a few things that are very clearly established. For one, cloning is available, doesn't cost anything from your paycheck, and is viable----for another, souls do exist and this fact is only going to be more cemented into Para, going forward (ie: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/5890). Given these two fact, it's fairly logical that people treat death in a nonchalant; dying is going to hurt, sure, but the fact that you are the same person you died as and the fact that "revival is cheap", well, it's going to absolutely cause people to behave differently. Again, I can understand if some people don't like this, but to say that "remembering everything and treating death as trivial is bad roleplay", I would argue, is patently false. On that similar line, due to the fact that shifts are, in some form and light, interconnected, it's also fairly reasonable that characters invariably would become paranoid over time. Not a day goes by without at least 15-20 crewmembers dying, someone shooting up medbay, nuke ops attempting to bomb the station, or aliens trying to dissect you. The frequency of this events happening is extremely high, to say the least. Due to the frequency of these events and the fact that all shifts are interconnected, again, it's only logical that, even from a roleplay perspective, people become paranoid and defensive. Again, I'll repeat; I can understand if someone doesn't like those effects, but again, labeling this as "poor roleplay", comes across as playing D&D then complaining about the wizard using magic (because you don't personally like magic or the impacts it has on roleplay in said game). Now to get on to the main point. Removal of revival methods is only going to further serve to entrench paranoid behavior. Recall that I said that "revival is cheap", earlier; note that I didn't say "death was cheap", because in SS13 death is very expensive; there's a lot of situations where you can die and be out of the game for the next hour (or more). Making revival more "expensive" is going to make death more "expensive", which means people are going to do even more to avoid it, which will include paranoid/overly-suspecting behaviors. This is one reason why I don't think removing cloning is going to have the impact suggested; it's going to make players more paranoid than they already are (and thus going even further in their mechanical proceedings to stay alive) while simultaneously making revival even more expensive. The latter of which, I don't think is needed; as pointed out, death is already extremely expensive in SS13--it makes sense that if is easy to come by and you're likely to stay that way, that if you are under the circumstances to be found, revival should probably be a little bit easier. It's a way of keeping players active and engaged in a game that is a 2 hour slog between rounds. So, at the end of the day, I don't think removal of cloning is going to have nearly the "positive" impact on roleplay as some think; it ultimately requires a very very strict ruleset to address all the behaviors associated with it which are often illogically contradictory in nature (ie: cross round relationships/friendships are allowed, but experiences and events around the relationship are not), as seen on stations like Polaris or Bay. This is an insane level of administrative involvement that isn't going to happen on Paradise because of how taxing and time-involved it is, not to mention, the idea of "feigning stupidity" in a lot of situations isn't too popular with the majority of the community (or admins), either.

Name: Nicholas Rafferty Age: 38 Gender: Male Race: Human Blood Type: O- General Occupational Role(s): Medical Doctor, Surgeon, Paramedic, Chemist, Brig Physician, Chief Medical Officer, Virologist, Geneticist Biography Born into a life of poverty and destitution on the ruins of Earth, Nicholas faced a bleak future with few opportunities. He was able to escape from his humble beginnings when NanoTrasen funded a select few public schools in low income areas in exchange for permission to issue some ‘aptitude tests’ to students. Nicholas' school was one of those chosen, and he scored highly on these tests, being identified as a possibly gifted individual who qualified for a new NanoTrasen employment program. The premise was simple: NanoTrasen will pay for relocation off Earth to pursue education in the field of the student's choice. In exchange, the student, upon graduation, enters a mandatory 16 year tour of indentured servitude to repay these costs, after which they are free and clear to do as they wish… except for a standard non-compete clause, of course. Nicholas accepted the deal, seeing it as probably his only opportunity to escape a life of poverty. He chose Medicine as his field, as qualified doctors are always in high demand on remote outposts and deep space exploration vessels. He enrolled in Lunar University of Medical Science in 2542. After graduating and beginning to serve, he quickly became somewhat embittered by NanoTrasen’s soulless corporate philosophy, as well as the realization that he had sold the best years of his life to a company that viewed him as simply a moderately expensive piece of equipment. It didn't help when later he learned the 'non-compete' clause of his contract was so expansive that it would all but guarantee he would either work for NanoTrasen for the rest of his life, or never work again at all. While somewhat cold to NanoTrasen in general, he takes his oath as a medical doctor very seriously. He will always treat anyone in his care to the best of his ability. Qualifications Degree and year of attainment: Doctor of Medicine (MD): 2546 Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D): 2548 Master of Medicine (MMed): 2550 Master of Surgery (M.S): 2552 Basic self-defense training. Post-placement training in Virology and Genetics equipment employed by NT. Employment Records Began mandatory assignment in 2553, which will end in 2569. Has served on the Cyberaid for just under 2 months. Dr. Rafferty is a skilled physician and surgeon, although there are some incidents of him cutting corners for the sake of expediency. Dr. Rafferty is competent at following instructions and working in a team. When no leadership is present, he is capable of working independently. He has the necessary technical skills and knowledge to perform the role of Chief Medical Officer, but a lack of assertiveness as well as a tendency to place the well-being of individual employees above the interests of the greater corporation limits his leadership potential. Security Records No incidents on file. Medical Records 2542 - Surgical correction for Myopia. No complications. 2546 - Blood type alteration: From A+ to O-. Voluntary experimental program designed to allow doctors assigned to remote locations with limited blood banks to become universal donors. Personnel Photo [To be added] Commendations [only to be added by admin]: Reprimands [only to be added by admin]:

I'm still fairly new to SS13 but I DMed/Developed for a NWN persistent world RP server for 5-6 years. Making players fear death was a pretty big issue because clearly people were not on our server. And after struggling with it for a long time, I've come to the conclusion that you have to pick your battles and this particular hill is not one you want to die on. Players don't fear death. They fear boredom. That's why players are always going to charge into dangerous situations. Because sitting in a locker instead is boring. Safe is boring. A server full of people doing the safe thing is boring. People won't play a boring server. It's okay that people are reckless. Chock it up to the fact that the type of person who signs on to work at a deep space plasma research station in a world of cults, space carp, vampires, shadowlings, changelings, terror spiders and Xenos are probably not people who shy away from danger. We're all a bit crazy if we decided to be on the Cyberaid in the first place. As for Cloning roleplay, the problem here is that mechanics and roleplay are in conflict. Fixing this problem means putting the two back into sync. When I play MD, my patients are real players with their own agendas and their own things they want to be doing. Now occasionally, you get the guy who wants to RP his trip to Medbay and those players are great and I will definitely take the time to chat with them and tell them what is going on, ask them how they got injured and describe the treatment I'm giving them. But, often I will have a patient who has things to do and they just want me to fix them and get them back into the round as quickly as possible. And this is why the Cloning versus Treatment debate is more like a balance than treatment being always the correct choice. Yes, I will roleplay that Cloning is a last resort because it means the person died and a replacement is now walking around. But at the same time, if I have a player who just wants to get back into the round, and I know I can get him back into the round twice as quickly by cloning him as I can be reviving and treating him, is it really right for me to force my own roleplay preferences onto them, to enhance my experience at the cost of theirs? I'm not so sure it is. The solution to this problem is to change design so that the roleplay motivations and mechanics motivations lead to the same behavior, rather than different ones. This can be done by either changing roleplay or changing mechanics to bring the two into sync. To change it mechanically: if we want Cloning to be a last resort in terms of roleplay, then it must also be a last resort mechanically. That is, it must be the most difficult and time consuming way to revive someone. How exactly to go about accomplishing that, I'll leave to people more experienced in ss13 mechanics than I am. To change the roleplay: Give roleplay reasons to clone over treating. For example, add fluff about how science proved ghosts exist and migrate to a new body. Or make NT SOP say you have to use the least expense and time consuming methods of treatment and even though we don't like it, we all signed the NT contract so we have to do it. My preference would be to fix it mechanically by making cloning more time consuming and difficult. When I play MD I want to do more than just throw people into Cryotubs or Cloners. I want there to be a reason for long, complicated surgical procedures. That said, it's less work to fix the issue from the roleplay perspective, and while doctors might like longer and more complicated treatments, patients typically don't.

And we're up on Github: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/7059

I think you are attributing the issue that people don't take dying seriously falsely. I would imagine that people not taking it seriously is a result from the fact that this is a video game and not from the fact that you can be cloned. I play an unclonable race anyway so this wouldn't impact me, but I don't think removing cloning will be the magic fix you believe it to be.

I'm aware that in most plane crashes, everyone dies instantly on impact with the ground, but that's beside the point. I'm just giving an example of where morbid "jokes" would be inappropriate. "Max your suit sensors so we can find your mangled corpse in maint!" isn't that much different. In the worst case, a very thorough antag would render suit sensors as useless as seatbelts in a plane crash.

Chemists would prioritize SR. Again talking about min/maxing, if the CMO gives the omnizine from their spray gun to chemist, you'll have 90 SR pills within the first 5 minutes. I play chemist primarily when I play medical and I honestly hate SR because it feels too easy, but if you don't make it you have ravenous doctors going REEEEEE kicking your door down. If you want to do an experiment about people caring about dying, remove the magic pill Mind you I don't even think doing that will accomplish what you are hoping it would. I agree with the others that it's just about people needing to be more invested in RP. There's no way to force that. People need to want to do it because they enjoy doing it, and realistically it's not something everyone enjoys.

Tough but we finally got it! Also nice rhyme! Of course, credit to @Citinited for teaching me piping in mentorhelp

Working security primarily, I have regularly gotten booped by admins asking me why I did something, whether it's arresting, imprisoning, executing, etc. I've gotten warned once or twice because I did accidentally mess something up, but in most instances after I've explained myself the admin either says "Okay you are good" or just stops booping me to which I assume I'm good and they've moved onto something more important. I know this is all to prevent security from being abusive due to the power they wield. There are very specific rules and SOP in place that are to be adhered to. My question. Are antagonists being held to the same standards? I'm not actually talking about murderboning antags, I know people who push it too far on that end are dealt with, I'm talking about the opposite spectrum. From the rules: "Rule 6: Play Antagonists Responsibly Remember the goal of an Antagonist is to make the round exciting, fun, and dangerous, within limits. You should make an effort to add to the round, as opposed to simply completing your objectives and carrying on normally." I'm frequently in rounds, especially with particular antags (vampires, cult, sometimes traitors) where the round is boring as hell because the antags are just stealthily completing their objectives but doing nothing or little to make the round interesting. Are these antags getting booped by admins telling them to pick up the pace because they aren't fulfilling what the rules describe they are meant to do? Are they threatened with an antag ban when they don't perform up to expectations? These are all things that security is threatened with and we all have in the back of our minds every round. This concern spawns from me playing too many rounds where either nothing or almost nothing goes on for over an hour...sometimes even till the shuttle...and many people run to cryo because they are bored. Aside from rounds like this where I'm in the presence of others who enjoy RP, these rounds are the absolute worst. At the end when I see the antags objectives come up I just blink and think to myself "Oh...that wasn't extended?" To paraphrase a wise man wearing makeup and a purple suit: This station deserves a better class of criminals. Help us out here people. Admins...start enforcing ALL the aspect of rule 6...not just the side where people are being excessive. Antags, try to be more creative. You don't get a damned thing for getting green text other than possibly some self satisfaction for uh..."winning". Nobody is keeping track of how many times you've won (unless you are keeping track of yourself?), there's no stats here, only memories. Nobody can name the countless traitors who wait till the shuttle arrives to quickly break into the captain's office and steal his gun. BE. MORE. INTERESTING!

Alright another story from me about one of my own flukes that led to a memorable shift. This is actually the longer version of the Major Crime part of Tetra's security record. I go to join an early low population shift that is about 10 minutes in...depleted security force...I decide that having SOMEONE as HOS is better than nobody, so I take the job. This was my first time as HOS aside from 1 or 2 shifts where I was Acting HOS for a short while. I'm very inexperienced and inform command of this but they (which was literally just a captain and HOP) are glad to have me. Mostly had only dealt with cultists and traitors at this point. There are vampires on the station. Okay I've got this. Call the chaplain, get a tank blessed, 2 fire extinguishers in processing, we are good to go. My officers bring in our first vamp. Due to my experience with cultists I proceed to force feed this vamp enough holy water to de-convert a cultists. Despite emptying both extinguishers on the vampire they continue to burn. After we clean up that mess the magistrate bring me aside and informs me that I'm being demoted and arrested for manslaughter. I'm unhappy with this but accept my punishment without much resistance. Served the rest of the shift in perma. My officers did a good job making me comfortable, didn't put me in prison gear, giving me cigs and a botany bag. Kept me company and even still consulted with me about things. Eventually got a few vampire roommates that attempted to eat me and led to a lock down, one of them being executed, and the other agreeing to be a civil roommate with me. Appealed to central after working with IAA. Denied. I was super salty about this at the time but looking back now, just yet another unique experience given to me by SS13.

I did a whole bunch of these on Discord last night. I'm gonna post 'em below. Thanks for finding a few of them, Joonasm. Feel free to tell me to move this to a different thread if it's not suitable for guides, even as a little IC joke. RISSA on Transfers: RISSA on her favourite HoS: RISSA on Robotics: Cooking with RISSA!: Genetics with RISSA!: Rolling Antags: TOP SECRET TIPS:

These are awesome and you should feel awesome.

Learning was never so cute!