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So the dev's hate it, it doesn't get implemented. Dev's like it, it gets implemented. That's sadly how it is. Look at medbay and all that. The blueshield does need a buff. The validhunting is NO excuse, we have a rule for that and admins to enforce the rules. If that's not possible, change the rules or get more admins. Validhunting in general needs to be punished more severely, but I'll not go into that here. The blueshield is supposed to be highly trained. CQC would fit in that. Or some other form of training. If the blueshield doens't need CQC, IMO the warden doesn't need krav maga. Because that makes even less sense IMO. Blueshield acting like redshields should get reprimanded. The captain can also just fire them. We have OOC AND IC options to deal with validhunting. Witholding the implementation of new features should not be one of them.

This was absolutely not ever a thing.

Validhunting is a problem with Blues, but I don't think that's a reason to deny the featurei n question. However, the validhunt problem is real, but the thing is, in my mind anyway, the Blueshield is a 30 karma role. Magistrate is 45 Karma, and it costs that much because it is a "Trusted" role. It's something you don't just give to randos because they'll abuse it, and it is held to a higher standard then other jobs, it's easy to get a ding dong bannu out of Magistrate if you abuse it's authority. But it's authority/power you are given out of trust since you got enough karma for it, you demonstrated you understand how Paradise works a little bit, the dos and don'ts. Blueshield, IMO, should be similar. They can be trusted with things like Krav Maga or what have you, because it's a 30 karma role, you're being given a measure of trust that you won't abuse it. And if you do, then the job-bans will come swift and hard, harder then other jobs. A blue has no reason to not be at the bridge or at a Head of Staff's side, if you are wandering maint on your own, and are not actively trying to find the captain's corpse to recover and take to medical, then you abused that trust you were given, full stop, and it can and should be rescinded via job ban.

Hello, I recently found out that back in the day the Blueshield had CQC before it was nerfed. I propose we bring it back and allow to Blueshield to have CQC, either in glove form like the Warden or just inherently known. I think we should implement this because the Blueshield is a highly trained bodyguard sent directly from centcomm. They are someone who has undergone extreme training in order to protect heads in the most hostile environments, it does not make sense to me that they don't know some form of martial arts. It is a karma bought job so the likelihood of abuse is lower I would imagine, for some people 30 karma is impossible to get. Anyways, I think this would be a great improvement and provide more roleplay aspects, being able to grab someone who runs straight for the captain with a knife or some such. Not having to rely on your advanced stun revolver and the likes. Make the Blueshield great again! If you have something to add please do, hopefully, we can get this added.

Alright so let me be more explicit in this and pitch it to you in a way that maintainers are more likely to accept, because it's not a straight buff: Here's what we had on Oracle. https://github.com/OracleStation/OracleStation/blob/2528945aad61c2892652a98da422aba2c562d2d1/code/game/objects/items/miscellaneous.dm#L23-L46 It was a box they spawned with. When they used the box in-hands, it gave them the option of: .38 Mars Special Revolver .45 Enforcer Semi Automatic Pistol Aegis SG7 Laser Gun Once they made their selection, the box disappeared and the item was left in their hands. This actually gave a little bit of personalization and options to blueshields, and it also made it so an antag wasn't always sure what the BS had if they wanted to go after command. Nice little mind game. I think you could do the same sort of deal, except add some sort of BS Krav Maga gloves to the list.

Yes. That is exactly what I'm asking for. Genuine discussion is not possible if people aren't able to control their emotions and discuss things in a reasonable, and adult way. Hyperbole is not useful. Neither is passive aggressive comments, snark, and sarcasm. What "the community" wants seems to generally ignore all of "the community" members who disagree with whoever is talking about it at the time. These discussions seem dominated by a very few people, with very loud voices. Very rarely have I ever seen a poll get anywhere near the number of admins we have, let alone players in one round. To act like you have some form of "majority" is ridiculous. If someone gets so emotional about a videogame, that they're not going to have the decency to show courtesy and be reasonable when discussing things, then I have no interest in them being part of the community. Their opinion is irrelevant. We are not going to make decisions based on how people feel, or how strongly people feel about something. Even if it was somehow shown to be a majority of however you choose to define "the community", the decision in the end will be what the maintainers and admins think is best for the server. These are the people who have guided the server over 5 years to be the place that people are this invested in. Have some faith. If people wish to give feedback, criticism, alternative proposals, etc, then I gladly welcome that. It's incredibly helpful. @Norwest @Dinarzad and @Regular Joe are a few names I can think of who have made some excellent posts about these topics. These are great examples to look at some of the posts of, and the kind of feedback we're looking for. We won't lower ourselves to matching sarcasm with sarcasm. If you're going to scream and shout in an emotional rage, you'll be met with silence. We won't indulge salt.

It would also be able to be a new objective for antags to steal the blueshield's gloves, if it were done in a gloves-way.

Most community wanted items are shut down anyways. Believe me I've tried.

This sounds great, because the current way the blueshield is makes it very underwhelming and it makes you feel like a glorified baby sitter. Who ever said smashing spines wasn't the way to protect the captain from the clown using a jaunter to get onto the bridge. I think blueshield should get the whole arsenal of Prosthetic internal arm blade, reinforced limbs and torso, and a Typhoon Explosive System (DXHR) for dispatching an entire room of threats on spawning. Also he should spawn with thermals.

Blueshield never had CQC. Would be kinda kickass tho literally

Also in favor of this. I think there's pros and cons to having a glove form - it means making the Blueshield a possible target for his gloves via traitor objectives, and that adds more variety to traitor goals, not a bad thing. On the downside, he may become too much of a target for traitors (to those who don't even have him as a target) and might want his gloves for CQC, and he's already a prime target for the captain's spare that he may or may not have. Blueshields are easier to lure out than Captains. I think I would prefer to have the Blueshield inherently know the martial arts rather than a set of gloves for this reason. He's suppose to protect the heads of staff, not walk around with a big bullseye painted on his back because he's a loot pinata and end up becoming a far more tempting target than those he's assigned to protect.

It was satirical actually, as in an attempt to use humor to prove a point. I'm sorry you didn't like it, but it wasn't a dig at you personally. Let me try to explain to you where I'm coming from here. What I hope to avoid is medical doctors on Paradise becoming simply cloner operators. To that end, I want methods to actually treat people, not put them in a machine that just makes their injures irrelevant. There are two ways to do that. One way is to nerf cloning. The other (which I personally think is the vastly superior option) is treatment methods that rival cloning. Treatment methods skilled doctors can use to get people back alive and kicking more quickly and efficiently than cloning. So when you have newbie doctors they just throw everyone in cloning and it takes awhile, but if you have skilled and robust doctors they can use other methods to get people back alive and kicking. Who is staffing the medbay becomes vitally important and has a major impact on outcomes for patients. The thing is, this is exactly what people want to get rid of. The argument there is to nerf everything BUT cloning, so everyone has to use cloning. Then cloning won't be so good because there will be a backlog. By removing or nerfing everything but cloning, we actually in effect nerf cloning by creating pressure on it. If this isn't your actual argument, please correct me to what it is. That just seems to be my impression from what you and some others have said. I don't want to misrepresent you. That argument makes sense if your perspective is solely on the overall balance of how easy or difficult it is for people to get back into the round, and you don't care at all about how fun or interesting the medical profession is. If you do care about that, even a little, this option is disastrous. I'd also argue it's inherently flawed since the bottleneck can be bypassed by building additional cloning pods, but that's getting off topic a bit. So, why is that option so bad in my opinion? Before, everyone who came into medical who was dead for less than 5 minutes could be defibbed, and then you had a patient to work on and do your job as a doctor. Now it's 2 minutes. If the new crit system passes, everyone who comes in dead will be someone doctors cannot interact with beyond throwing them in the cloner or morgue. So the window of patients we actually have to do medical work on will become incredibly thin. We'd need someone who has taken enough damage for there to be something more for us to do than a few patches, but yet not taken too much damage to die. And we need them either not in crit, or in crit but arriving in time to be saved. Will there be patients like that? Sure. But a whole heck of a lot less than there were when you could treat anyone who died in the past 5 minutes. The majority of 'patients' won't be people doctors can actually do anything with beyond throwing them in a cloner or morgue tray. On other servers that might be fine. Maybe because on Bay there is a much larger emphasis on roleplay. Maybe lethal attacks are rarer, and when people do die, it's a lot more about the aftermath of being cloned and the necessary counseling for the mental issues that arise from it, than it is about the actual medical treatment. And maybe it's okay on TG because TG is more about the antags and the action they provide than how each department operates in a bubble. And maybe the medical system is designed more to get people back into the round fast than it's designed to be fun and challenging for the doctors. I don't play on those servers regularly, so I don't know. I do know that not everything that works on other servers works here, something we agree on when it comes to this critical system. And I do know that if the critical system goes through as is, and cloning goes through as is, doctors will largely be cloner operators with a very narrow band of actual patients who need to be treated. That's going to be a massive blow to what was a fairly good and rewarding medical system. That's why I'm really, really concerned with the idea of nerfing everything but cloning in order to pressure it. I hope you can understand that, even if you can't agree with it.

You have to give your players some credit. That other post regarding the PR merge speaks volumes to how the majority feels, yet it seems as though you simply do not care. And now here, when you're the one asking for people to discuss it, you seem to be dismissing genuine criticisms as "sarcasm and passive aggression". If I didn't know any better I'd say you were high on power and ignoring us all in favor of backers. All for the money, as it were. But I do know better, and I've seen better from all the staff on these forums. It does seem we're all on edge, as this is a contentious issue for all of us; players and staff alike. We need to be able to break bread and have a genuine discussion on how the community feels, and what the community wants. And don't be surprised when people get emotional about it. This game provides for some genuinely amazing experiences. So when an update may well result in more players spending whole rounds dead, it's easy to understand why people are upset. I'm not going to say there is a perfect solution, as a perfect solution for anything is an impossibility. But one thing that can majorly improve the standings here is opening up to much more community feedback. More polls, more threads like this one, more effort to stay in touch with the player base.

Wait, they took epipen from the starting boxes too? Do they just want everyone to spend all shift dead?

If anything, Warden should be a more trusted role than Blueshield.

This sounds like it’d be fun, though I can imagine the validhunting might get annoying. The option to choose starting equipment might be a good way to go, though a lot more involved.

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/10908 done

Honestly think this'd be a good idea too. It would make playing Blueshield more fun imo than basically being a security officer that sits on the bridge and gets lethals + a holster at roundstart. CQC itself requires good timing and mechanical knowledge to fully employ as well, and you can easily just get your ass meme'd by a traitor if they have any form of ranged weapon or stun or slip. Shouldn't be too hard to add as an inherent spawn in option either rather than gloves or a manual. Alternatively if it is hard...just...give them a manual on spawn.

I'm not opposed to the idea. It'd be kinda strong, might upend balance a little bit, but I mean... It's also fuckin cool, an that's what matters most, so.

Give them a choice of options of arms at roundstart. Add something like Krav maga gloves to the options.

Tell you what. Let's do a test. Do 1 day where Defibs/SR isn't available, an then you tell me how super duper fast cloning is and how it has no problems what so ever. Especially when it gets bombed. You also did nothing to even slightly address any point my post brought up whatsoever, in favor of a massive passive-aggressive salt pit, which is super helpful and absolutely benefits a discussion and will in no way sabotage feedback at all and is SUPER professional coming from an administrator. But yeah. You're right. Everyone else is the problem. TG, Bay, Goon, every other major codebase? Fools. Foolish fools who are foolishly believing their own foolishness as they seem to all agree a mechanic works across High, Medium and Low RP spectrums. They're all just to dumb to see the way, clearly, it could in no way be the minority opinion is wrong. Y'all are gonna do what you want anyway, feedback or otherwise, an apparently get you meme'd on if you disagree, so just like... do whatever, man. I'm done puttin' in effort, lemme know when you're done ruining the medical department though.

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/10773 I'm sorry but I remember the Pr you submitted with your changes to medical, One of the changes was to sr which initially gibbed any clonable species which you later changed to does nothing to them. This would make cloning basically the only way for anyone who isn't a vox or slime person to revive that was not cloning or making it in time with a defib. Your other changes also included longer cloning times removing pre scanning and auto cloning which is an upgrade that requires science to make happen. This update would only make cloning even more important and exacerbates the problems some seem to have with cloning which is a reliance on it for some medical players. You can't suggest taking away ways to revive people while also admonishing the only methods left.

I would love the option to be able to crawl when crit, do you aren’t forgotten all round and able to least find help for yourself

I agree completely, cloning isn't a problem at all. Doctors just need to get better at using ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS when it gets overrun in extreme emergencies (the only time it ever will be overrun). I'm tired of all these baldy doctors who think the only thing they can do is clone, when we have so many viable and robust ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS available. Let me all tell you a story about how it's really done. Let's say it's terror spiders or something and cloning is overwhelmed and bodies are piling up. As an industrious doctor who knows his shit I say "Ah! The cloner is overwhelmed! It's finally my time to shine as a medical doctor! I will not just piling bodies at the cloner, I will use the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS to get everyone alive in no time and being a fucking MEDICAL HERO. Okay. So first I sift through the dead bodies. By now, most of them are ghosting. Some have respawned as terror spiders. Some have logged off. So I systematically drag them one by one to the morgue tray until I find purple lights. Ah! they're still logged in. I don't know if they want to come back to life, but hey this one has promise! So I SR them, and nothing happens, because they aren't in their body. So, I wait a bit and SR again. Still nothing. That's two SR pills down. Oh well. I move onto the next. Surely someone in this giant pile of corpses wants to come back and I'm going to be a MEDICAL HERO when I show off my ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. So finally I find one that comes back. By now I've used up 6 SR pills, but hey, I got one! I rush them to Cryo and... huh, already dead. Try to defib. Uh oh. Heart arythamwasit? Oh, their heart is dead. Well, I'll just ask the friendly and responsive genetics department for a humanized monkey, since that's their job and surely my peers are as dedicated to the medical profession as I am. Oh, there's just one geneticist and he hasn't moved in the past 45 minutes. Well, I guess it's time to go hunt down tools and break into genetics. Okay, whew, someone else already broke into cargo, so I can get a multitool easily. I just had to dodge a few spiders, no big deal. Now, just a detour to learn the wires, shocking myself in the process but no problem, I got meds4dayz. Okay, hack into genetics, disassemble the window, grab a monkey cube box. Now just put it into the empty genetics scanner, mess with the last block, and aha a humanized monkey! Now, I could have taken the heart from it as a normal monkey but I know I'm going to have to replace the limbs, so might as well humanize it now while I'm already broken in. Okay, I have what I need. It's time to practice ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. As soon as I find the body of my patient. I swear he was here just a minute ago... Well, let's go searching morgue trays. I sure hope he hasn't just logged out or respawned as a terror spider in the meantime. Oh lucky me, I found them and the tray is still purple. Okay, great, time do my thing! As soon as an OR opens up. I need to remove the heart and replace it, but both ORs are taken, because of course they are, it's a terror spider attack. So, I wait. and I wait. There's no formal queue here, and the living people are already screaming about the wait, I really can't bump them out to do surgery on a corpse. After awhile, a tiny hole opens up and I slip in and get started. The surgeon who was in the OR is now swearing at me for 'stealing their OR' and screaming to the CMO to demote me. Two patients in the waiting area with broken bones are swearing at me for treating a corpse when they're alive. The surgeon is now back trying to chain disarm me. We have an impromptu doctoral deathmatch for dominance of the OR, and the space gods favor me, and I now control the OR. Of course. I'm a MEDICAL HERO. Surely, when they see the power of my ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS, they'll all see the folly of questioning me. One of the living patients is now on the floor in critical with spiderlings pouring from them. Okay, take old heart out, put new heart in, defib... Oh right. It's been like 20 minutes now, way beyond defib range. But that's fine, more SR! Oh boy, the heart didn't die this time! Cryo them up, go back to the OR.. oh, it's taken again. Well, I'll just keep them in cryo until it opens up. Of course, since it's terrors and we have a bunch of critical people coming in, the other doctors aren't happy about me keeping a cryotube constantly occupied, and the Cryox is draining pretty fast, but that's just because they're incompetent baldies that don't know about ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. Finally get back into an OR. Patient dies 3 times on the table, but I just keep defibbing to reset and eventually I have all the septic limbs removed, I've repaired their chest and skull, both IBs, and replaced their missing blood. The patient has no legs, and I can't replace them because terror spiders have taken over genetics and someone stole my humanized monkey. But, my patient is alive. I look down at him on the roller bed as I drag him to the shuttle which has now arrived because by now it's the end of the round. I tell him he has been saved by a MEDICAL HERO using the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. He asks me why I didn't just clone him. Urgh. I calmly explain to the half a person on the roller bed that cloning has numerous drawbacks. It can be overwhelmed, or tampered with! Yes, what we just went through was a much better option, and I'm sure, any day now, the rest of my fellow doctors will come to see that and start playing medical doctor the way I do. With the power of ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS. I don't get karma. tl;dr: Cloning is fine, it just needs to get overrun so Doctors will use ALTERNATIVE REVIVAL METHODS which are completely viable in the emergency situations that would lead to the cloner being overrun in the first place. SR is OP, it needs to take at least 10u to revive someone and the recipe should require a ground up chain of command. Spaceproof races are OP, nerf slime people. Death is trivial.

I'm going to echo what I said before in response to the talks about Cloning. Cloning is not the issue, has never been the issue and will continue to not be the issue. cloning exists on TG, on Bay and Goon, it exists in almost every single codebase out there, but you think, for some reason, it's magically a problem on this one single codebase. Cloning has clear and obvious downsides. That being, it is easily overwhelmed and tampered with. It works on one person at a time, when it was the only method of revival it very easily formed a queue. The problem is that over the years we've added more and more alternatives to cloning, so those downsides are now null. You can Defib most people, clone them when that fails or if it's too inconvenient and SR things that can't be cloned at all, or just if you want a challenge mode, I guess. The downsides of cloning were predicated on it being the primary source of revival, the more alternative methods of unkilling someone you make, the more you make cloning into a tool that can be used selectively when convenient, which is WHY so many doctors take the 'just clone them' mindset these days. Because these days it's almost always not in use so it's a massive time saver. When you had conga lines of corpses in waiting, it was a lot more imperative to keep someone from dying at all, lest they be potentially dead for several minutes before their turn came up. Times have changed. Something has to change to match it. Either Cloning needs a TOTAL overhaul, a complete remake, which in a personal opinion would be absolutely silly, given NO OTHER MAJOR CODEBASE agrees with that idea. (That sorta tells me this is a personal problem and not a problem with the mechanic as it remains, to this day, a baseline feature in all the major codebases. If Goon, TG and Bay can all agree on something, despite how disparate they all are, that carries some major weight.) OR. The other forms of revival need to be looked at, mostly the defib units. SR could do with a recipe tweak, but it's niche in being primarily targeted at Vox/Slimes is fine pretty much as is. Defib units should not be able to revive a person who died ages ago, that's not how they work. They jump start a heart that has stopped within a very short time frame, they do not magically make a long cold body start living again. The body is already dead, the brain has died from lack of oxygen. No amount of electrical impulses will change that the brain has suffocated. Cloning might be easy if you don't attempt anything like Hypercloning, but it's straight forward and has clear downsides. A new doctor can pick up the role and, if nothing else, understand cloning. That's not a bad thing, not everyone in medical is gonna be a 16 year Space 'Nam veteran. The basics of the department should probably be relatively easy to grasp in short order. You can whack at it if you really, really want to, but I am telling you now, the more tedious and obnoxious you make death on the doctors themselves, the more you're gonna see people give up half way through when they get tired of handling it, especially in crisis situations where people are dying constantly. It's gonna get real fun real fast having to deal with hyper lethal war ops or blobs when you're gonna be dead for the next 5 minutes, along with a hefty chunk of crew/the entire sec team, as you're rebuilt like the bionic man, just so you can do it again. As for the PR feedback itself: I don't think this fits Paradise. Goon crit is a system that is predicated on everyone being human, because on goon there's no alien races like we have and are known for. The fact we have to make snowflake exceptions to it so that it won't utterly break the system is a telling point of that. I feel that we need to pick ONE system overhaul an focus on that. We can't do both an SR/Revivability overhaul and a crit overhaul at the same time, that's too many major systems changes at once. If one of these gets merged, the other definitely shouldn't until we see how things shake up.