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As a test, I used an admin spawned human and used admin tools to deal 200 burn damage, then timed how long it took for them to die. These times aren't precise as I don't have a stopwatch and had to alt tab back and forth, but are generally accurate within 1-2s. Test 1: 2:28. Subject started taking brain damage after 1:47. Died with 664 respiration damage and 75 brain damage Test 2: 0:56. Subject started taking brain damage after 0:35. Died with 297 respsiration damage and 36 brain damage. Test 3 0:18. Subject started taking brain damage after 0:08. Died with 139 respiration damage and 18 brain damage. Test 4: 1:33. Byond bugged and didn't update the scanner so I don't know when brain damage started. Died with 818 respiration damage and 102 brain damage. Test 5: 1:43. Subject started taking brain damage after 1:05. Died with 530 respiration damage and 60 brain damage. I'd hazard a guess that in a real scenario the odds any of those test dummies could have been saved by medical, even if it was staffed by the best medical players in existence is practically zero, simply because none of them would likely have made it to medical before dying. Keep in mind, these numbers are withn me using admin tools to deal 200 burn damage. In a realistic scenario where someone is taking brute by an antag or atmos death blender, it's probably going to be a lot worse. There definitely needs to be some adjustments made on the time til death, and there certainly needs to be a floor so patients can't just randomly die in 20 seconds. Edit: For some practical advice to anyone playing medical. At round start acquire a bucket. Go to the mendvend. Vend a bottle of Epi, Sal-Glu, Atropine, and Salylic Acid. Then vend 1 pill of Mannitol and 1 pill of Salbumtol. Add 20 of each bottle to the bucket, then disolve both pills in it. Grab a syringe and fill it. Inject literally everyone who comes into medical in crit with that. If you're the CMO, use your hypo instead of a syringe, it's faster. Normal hypos won't take atropine sadly, and if you have to give it separately it kind of defeats the point of the hypo being faster. Edit 2: Actually, forget all that. Just carry Atropine, it's all you need. They can't die unless they suffer cardiac arrest, and they can't suffer cardiac arrest if they have Atropine in them. Defib if their heart is already stopped. Once atropine is in them, treat as normal to get them out of critical. In fact, it should generally be safe to just inject 15u of atropine from a syringe and then dump them into cryo as long as their heart isn't already stopped. Edit 3: Theoretically, you should be able to just add atropine to the cryomix and just cryo everyone. Will require testing. Once that's done, your biggest issue will be your fellow doctors trying to drag your patients away and throw them into cryo. I would recommend murdering them with a hatchet.

I don't much see the point of discussing these merges if the maintainers/administrators won't take it into consideration to begin with.

Don't know if it is intended or not, but with the new crit system, as a terror spider, it was impossible to kill someone to the point of being able to web them, without waiting for 2 minutes after they had entered crit, regardless to how badly damaged they were.

You just get forced into being locked into crit for 2 minutes, then die... but that is inconveniant for everyone because:- You can't do anything really while in crit, then are dead . If you are a terror and get someone in crit you need to wait for the 2 minutes to be up for them to "properly die", so you can cocoon them. Culty healing things can't bring you out of crit Changeling fleshmend, doesn't bring you out of crit. This all needs to be fixed, or ideally just revert to old crit.

Well at least that's something. I still think the new system is horrible, however.

Fix O vein

Also don't get me started on the fact that corazone is removed. The ONE chemical that would actually be super helpful is removed. Like, seriously?

Trauma patches removed I think, so what is used in surgery now to fix organ damage?

It really does break a lot of stuff beyond making medical annoying. Terrors have to wait ages to be able to cocoon victims, cult don't get healed properly by pylons and unholy water. Those are just the problems I have encountered so far, who knows how many more issues there are.

Been saying this for some time.

Current state of optimisations Sprites up at https://github.com/timegrinder/SS13-Paradise/tree/optim-img Sounds up at https://github.com/timegrinder/SS13-Paradise/tree/optim-snd Sprites: Resource file size reduced to 99.022MB (11.477MB less than current master) The files have also been tested for 100% match using the following methods: - PSNR (how the decoded image visually compares to the original in a 'signal to noise ratio' number 0 being none, infinite being 100%) - They all come up infinite/100% - DMI Metadata was hashed (extract the DMI chunk as text, run the text result through MD5, spit out a hash. Do the same to the optimised version and if the hashes match (or are not the default 'empty string' hash) they match) As I'm not an expert or even regular player in BYOND games there may be unforeseen issues with transparencies and how objects are applied on mobs or effects applied, but I've loaded a server using them and run around the station for a while, the basics all seem to look normal compared to the hosted server. Sounds: Resource file size reduced to 85.694MB (24.805MB less than current master) We'll see how these turn out based on opinion, they may end up larger if they seem to be different to the originals. Some audio files are actually higher quality after processing the original sources (and not the versions available in the master repo or other SS13 forks) E1M1 will sound pretty different as it's the full range original source material, not the cut down version that ended up in the game (upper frequencies are cut drastically). I can however replicate that same frequency range cut in the lower file size version based on preferences. New resource file size (for both optimisations): 74.216MB (36.283MB less than current master) See how we go from here!

Try the frequency test, I worked out on my system that is rated up to 20KHz I can't hear above 16KHz (I can still feel the sound to about 18KHz though), I got someone else to try it out and they can't hear above about 15KHz but can feel it up to 16KHz. The audio might be stored in a higher range but it's still assumed humans can't hear above 22KHz at the upper extreme. This is why I went back over the changes I'd previously made when I first started and re-did them to include all frequencies until there's enough feedback / an executive decision to remove above frequency x, so there's still a lot of data savings without cutting into the actual content wherever possible. After some of the cleanup on the source media some of the files have ended up with more clarity for similar (or lower) file sizes as the silence is actually closer to silence (or the noise floor at least) instead of them having a faint 'washy' sound in the background. As a side note, it's amusing to hide pictures in the audio / in the frequencies above 22KHz. Not that I'd do it here ?

1 meddling admeme ruining our sweet line-

That's right, yes, sample rate is always max audible frequency (KHz) * 2, so the sample rate's are only being lowered (or were when I was originally testing, but are not any more unless the sound is extremely low frequency) down to above audible KHz *2. 44KHz being the general standard (nowadays it's 48KHz) for general digital audio, for up to 22-24KHz of audible frequencies. The optimisations regarding sample rate were strictly if, say, we had a sound effect that was stored in 44KHz+ sample rate, but the sound itself was only 2KHz, meaning taking it down to 8KHz sample rate would still give it plenty of headroom. However I've done away with those changes where possible and left everything at 44KHz and let the encoder handle it, because the encoder handles higher sample rates more efficiently for lower frequencies in use. If I lower the sample rate because the frequencies used are lower, the encoder begins to damage the audio and start notching (band stop) frequencies that are too close together for humans to generally be able to differentiate, which regardless of whether I can hear the difference (or others) I can see the difference when monitoring the spectrum plot and spectrogram, both of which are objective comparisons vs a subjective listening test. The concept of lowering the sample rates is kind of done away with for the most part since I continued work on the optimisations because of issues / efficiency losses I encountered when handling them that way as the Vorbis encoder encodes more efficienctly (higher quality for lower data size) if I leave the sample rate at 44-48 (22-24KHz audible) even if the content is lower, and just let the encoder do the low pass filter itself based on quality level where appropriate or manually do the low pass / delete above a frequency if nothing audible is actually there. In these cases through my testing and findings while playing with it, the sample rate changes aren't necessary at all until you hit extremely low audible frequencies, if we find there is an upper cap to audible frequencies that we can remove data with, anything that gets cut off the top will be done by flat deleting the content (if it's far beyond audible gain levels and there's nothing audible near it) or with a low pass filter without changing the sample rate. Bit depth should never be touched, the masters should always be kept in whatever the max bit depth they were in is as lossy encoding doesn't have a fixed bit depth, it just encodes based on the content and storing the master in a lower bit depth will give the encoder less accurate audio to handle. Overall, most of these changes are simply: - Someone has a piece of audio containing 0-10KHz audible (by volume) frequencies + a bunch of frequencies that are too quiet to be heard ever, encoded in 48-90KHz sample rate (24KHz-45KHz audible) at a data rate in some cases of of 500kbit/s - 1000kbit/s. - The encoder encodes the entire frequency range even if a large portion of it is too quiet to ever be heard above SNR, and provides more bits than the audio actually contains because it was told to (because 'quality / VBR' settings are fixed between a lower and upper bound, even if that lower bound is still much higher than the actual upper bound of the audio. - The audio itself only contains 20KHz sample rate worth of actual useful audio data, and 100kbit/s of actual data when encoded optimally - We remove the overhead that is genuinely wasted space, saving a large portion of file size For proper mono-stereo it should be output the same in both ears vs mono, though as I go removing those I tweak the new mono track (instead of mixing them down I just delete one) and change the gain to match the perceptual gain level of the mono-stereo version, so the output should be 'the same' to within enough accuracy it should be indifferent to the audience. Problem with most of the mono-stereo tracks is that they're already so small (and there's so many of them) I haven't undertaken the work because I feel like the data savings are too small for the effort (we're talking maybe at a guess 500KB saved to process 181 effects if I can't do it automatically). Hell, some of these mono-stereo effects could even be upgraded to add some phase variance so that they sound fuller, as at the size they're at it won't be a huge increase in data size, but that depends entirely on the effect and how long it plays for. My intention is to not ever touch the heard audio, just remove the overhead, so there's no 'compression' or other changes being done to the decoded audio, we're simply altering and optimising how that audio is packed into the file. A lot of these changes are actually also to institute a 'best practice' (assuming people are interested in following one) for when people add new audio to the game so that it can be handled from whatever quality master they can get a hold of and optimised before it's added, then there's no double handling or risk of players getting 'used to a sound' then having it changed later as well.

So upon further testing: You can use a 60/60 atropine/Cryox mix in your cryotubes. It won't save everyone but with how much RNG there is in the system, nothing will. The only caveat is that you have to make sure their heart doesn't stop, so if damage is below -100 or so, eject them every so often to check. It'll be pretty rare anyone that hurt makes it to medical alive, though. The other option is atropine and then use a sleeper to inject salgu, salb, and epine. This will eventually stabilize them. Or in the field, atropine and treat the damage like you'd normally do. I hope a pattern is developing here. Carry syringes of Atropine round. Although patients don't instantly die at -100, much beyond that they die so fast that they might as well. I wasn't able to save anyone with more than -200 HP even giving them immediate treatment with defibs and atropine, they still just randomly die, even without cardiac arrest hitting stage 3.

The defib reviving is not realistic yes, but not being able to restart a heart is incredibly unrealistic. As I've said multiple times, if real doctors in real ERs are working on a critical patient and their heart stops, they can and frequently do revive them. A shot of epinephrine and chest compressions can restart a heart. So I agree changing the defibrillator was a good idea as a one click revive like that is dumb, but there are times when trying to stabilize someone where restarting their heart is apart of the process. Needing to clone everyone who's heart stops or use a really hard to make chemical to do so is unrealistic and not fun. Not to mention heart transplants, head and brain situations. You need to remember, just because the system works when Admins test it, that does not mean players will be efficient smart or play properly. Have you actually played ss13 before? They don't call it malpractice bay for nothing. You need to build it for the community not yourself. You need to think about how it will be played not how it should be played. The new crit system has lots of positives but it has massive problems that I guarantee won't be adressed because let's be real, this thread is less a feedback discussion thread and more a "suggestion box" sign over a paper shredder.

4 bottles of vodka in Boris's office

Personally, I liked the rework after playing in medbay for a few high-pop rounds. The update seems to be aimed at making medbay more highly skilled, and I can see how this could be detrimental in the eyes of most players. There is an adjustment period, and anyone NOT playing medbay might have to spend more time until they are resuscitated ( Considering that most doctors aren't knowledgeable enough to perform increasingly more complex procedures without making it take forever ( which is very not fun for the dead players )), however, for those who are well-versed in medbay resuscitation times shouldn't be affected, but antagonists will now have more incentive to carry a saline/epinephrine mix if they intend to get in combat. As a big fan of SR, the fact that it doesn't cause any more genetic damage in the light of these changes is a huge appeal to me, since treating brain damage if a patient has been dead for too long is quick and easy with mitocholide anyway.

I really just need to say I agree that making slimes and dionae change to fit the new system is... not ideal. Slimes are the race I play as so they're the ones I will comment on. Not having organs is the point of playing a slime, and having a heart isn't even unrealistic. Many species in real life have no heart or have a very simple one, and slimes appear to be modeled on essentially being a giant amoeba which don't need to circulate their cytoplasm to get chemicals where they need to be. Additionally, they are entirely immune to respiratory damage, hence taking toxin instead while in crit, and it sounds like either that will change too (in which case why not just play human?) or it won't (in which case why mess with slimes at all?) Also, slimes are already weak to brain damage and can't be cloned. If a brain damage and cloning reliant medical system is applied to them they will need to be reworked.

I haven't gotten a chance to really sink my teeth into the New Crit system. My only medical rounds have been in chemistry and I just know I'm pumping out chems all shift with barely any free time. However my big gripe currently is not all the changes are centralized in one place. Its hard to tell whats change and what hasn't. Can we have a end all location where all these changes are listed. Discord points to the guide and the guide doesn't mention a lot of the smaller changes. Almost every round the CMO will still give me their hypospray not realising it contains mitochloride instead of omni. The only place that seems to be mentioned is halfway down the PR. I only learned Corazone was disabled by reading the feedback thread. I was adding rezadone to my SR pills to help combat the clone damage without realising that that detriment to SR no longer exists. Its going to be a hard pill to swallow either way but can we at least get all the changes transparent and centralized?

Alright so they are forcing the medical system to be far less realistic and less fun. Neat. Imagine going to the ER and the doctors where like "sorry their heart stopped in the ambulance so we just body bagged them because there was nothing we could do, chest compression are witchcraft" They should put a conveyor system into and out of the cloning pod because that's all med bay will be now.

The new crit system has good aspects, I just think a revival method should be available if someone dies as you're working on them or if they die right before the paramedic arrives. The defibrillator reviving people with the click of a button was kind of dumb, but having no quick revival options is sketchy and un realistic. Again if anyone is taking suggestions I still think if someone dies they should be able to be revived by getting an epinephrine shot and chest compressions. Make it so it only works if they have been dead for no more than 1 or 2 minutes so it's not OP. Or have it the longer they are dead the more brain damage they accumulate until they can't be revived at all. I also like the idea of adding cardiac massage so if someone dies during emergency surgery you can start their heart manually but that's probably too specific. Epinephrine and chest compressions to revive is my suggestion. It's more involved than the defibrillator, would add to paramedic, is more realistic, would make triage more flexible during massive injury situations. As a small addition, giving the paramedic epinephrine at round start in this system would be good. Also I didn't realize until now but as said above, without the defibrillator heart, head and brain transplants can't be done. That's something to keep in mind.

What did you re-use them for then? Why were they even removed? They were the only means of reliably treating brute and burn damage if chemistry was entirely inept. Now they've been replaced with single use patches that really do not heal all that much whatsoever. It'll now be even harder, if not impossible, to effectively treat someone heavily damaged. Especially Vox or Slime People. Unless of course the intention was to make them harder to revive while also making it harder to treat others, since you and others are in favor of making them harder/impossible to revive outside of transplanting? I'm not accusing or anything like that, I'm genuinely asking if that was one of the key reasons the kits were removed.

The change is university unpopular, so it will be implemented and the community will have 0 say.

I'm not opting for a poll at all, but to seemingly dismiss feelings about the change as not being part of the discussion or feedback feels a little rash, to me.

To be fair, isn't how people feel about the changes part of the feedback and discussion?

We're not interested in peoples general feelings or votes over a few days of a system that's a work in progress. We want feedback and discussion about the specifics of the changes. Not a poll that indicates how people feel.

I unfortunately cannot follow the logic of the sample size on the forums being inadequate. But I can think of a solution. Run a poll in-game over this three- or four-day weekend, including a link for uninformed players to be able to read up on the changes. That will certainly provide a better sample size.

You have to give your players some credit. That other post regarding the PR merge speaks volumes to how the majority feels, yet it seems as though you simply do not care. And now here, when you're the one asking for people to discuss it, you seem to be dismissing genuine criticisms as "sarcasm and passive aggression". If I didn't know any better I'd say you were high on power and ignoring us all in favor of backers. All for the money, as it were. But I do know better, and I've seen better from all the staff on these forums. It does seem we're all on edge, as this is a contentious issue for all of us; players and staff alike. We need to be able to break bread and have a genuine discussion on how the community feels, and what the community wants. And don't be surprised when people get emotional about it. This game provides for some genuinely amazing experiences. So when an update may well result in more players spending whole rounds dead, it's easy to understand why people are upset. I'm not going to say there is a perfect solution, as a perfect solution for anything is an impossibility. But one thing that can majorly improve the standings here is opening up to much more community feedback. More polls, more threads like this one, more effort to stay in touch with the player base.

In reality cloning isn't an issue many regular medbay players use cloning on people who are way to far gone or have insane levels of body damage to where it is not practical, The problem with cloning is that its easy and yeah it is sure but it is a way for newer doctors to contribute because it's simple, They learn how to do simple things and then move on to using more advanced methods. I mean would you rather have new doctors playing with Sr? Or saying I am of no use here and just leaving? Because that will happen. Defibs do not need to be messed with either if you take away their ability to revive someone then you take away a method of getting them back in and playing sooner and why would you want that? For realisim? If so then why play ss13 its not realistic and it doesn't have to be. To make death have an impact? Well if someone can come back then it doesn't have impact it's a timer and nobody likes waiting on a timer much less one that is frustratingly long, Death in this game doesn't have impact because someone has to wait longer it has to have impact because of how you died or who your death affects and that requires roleplaying and not needless changes. You do not have to make it harder to treat people to add value to death in game and it's a poor argument to say you do, And oddly enough if you don't like cloning then don't let yourself be cloned. You do not have to accept being cloned its completely voluntary nobody is forcing you to be cloned. If you want to mitigate cloning then add more methods like the replica pods or sr you don't need to hamstring an entire department to do so. At the end of the day yes it is a game so why make it less fun to play and why make players pay the penalty for something they did not ask for nor want, Any other game that does something the community does not agree with gets slammed by the same community I do not see why it is not the same here.

The idea to move away from the more common TG medical of “Fuck they died, cloning time” was and is a noble move. Except everything done has done the complete opposite. I am genuinely impressed at the absolute ineptitude displayed in understanding of the game systems and how they interact with one another in regards to player culture. If I'm not mistaken part of these updates have also been echoed to move the codebase further towards MRP. While yes, one can use mechanics to inform roleplay, roleplay is always secondary to mechanical systems. One falls into the fallacy of Dungeons and Dragons, wherein you have persons that play the game to smash and kill things with big dice rolls, while the few others at the table wish to roleplay and speak to the NPCs primarily. When the game systems are built around mechanical interaction (The game doesn't prompt you a moral question before you slam a toolbox into your co-worker, it just encourages you with screaming), roleplay becomes secondary to the moment to moment systems. This is further exacerbated by the fact that this is a video game. A video game that inherits most of it's tonal themes in regards to gamemodes from social games like Mafia, Werewolf, Town of Salem, Trouble in Terrorist Town, and others. The list goes on, but primarily, when players understand this mindset that x is not with y, and it's their job (specifically as a medical player) to prevent x from eliminating y through their practice alone, you'll see a trend towards the stereotypical silent super doctor who will wordless slam you onto the operating table and cut your septic spleen out not expecting thanks. And you, non the wiser will wake up from surgery, and impatiently wait for them to open the door to the operating room so you can continue with your round. Exceptional roleplay, 10/10 very robust everyone. Even the Head of Security stood up and clapped. You cannot enforce roleplay through heavy handed mechanics. Full stop. Please stop trying. Roleplay is suggested and informed via mechanics, not controlled by it. Seriously. In regards to the actual mechanical changes themselves? Well personally I'm a fan of Goon crit, and more specifically I'm a big fan of CM pain mechanics, however those systems specific to their codebases and style of gameplay work very well. They fit because they were designed with their player culture and other systems in mind. Here? Well first, you can't discount the other medical changes that have happened in respect to the critical state changes; and everyone has already said it. Medical was fine the way it was. Sure a little tedious at times, and yeah no one wants to make morphine but someone's gotta do it. But it was fine for what it was. It worked, it had interplay with other systems. It was fine. However this reminds me more of attempts to port Lavaland, which inherently is flawed for Paradise player culture do to the culture and codebase it was designed towards (TG). To make an analogy, you can't put a Prius Electric Engine into your 1990 Honda Civic and expect it to work. Goon is a Prius and we're a 1990 Honda Civic made out of spare parts that TG and Bay left behind. What's happened here boils down to: “Cloning bad, but other revival method bad, roleplay good... cannot roleplay if dead. Fuck” By obfuscating the systems instead of actually creating complexity off of what was already present, these updates have done the exact opposite of what was intended, and instead have exacerbated the outlying issues already present and brought in a whole slew of new ones. I guess we can all get participation medals though, this has been quite fun to talk about. I am very interested in how the player concerns are eventually addressed if at all, as right now if I'm not mistaken, no one wants this that regularly plays medical. Take what I say with a grain of salt, as we all should do with everyone, as it is just an atmospherics simulator with too many layers to count. Sorry if I've stepped on any toes, be they big or small.

I'd also like to say as a more general note: no one likes dying, and no one likes to stay dead. Please don't make reviving people too hard. That's just telling people they can't play for the next hour and that's often really galling.