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There does seem to be a lot of miscommunication based on telescience within the topic, much like Jazz said. I think trying to break each and every complaint / pros for telescience will show that it's not as "Robust" and "Broken" as people claim it to be. Telescience is nearly broken by itself from the start, unless you're a super computer that knows everything wrong / right and how to do telescience immediately, you'll never successfully do it without a program. But a program itself doesn't even help you to begin with, the programs that you are talking about only help you with coordinates that you ALREADY have.. and even then, nearly every program (Such as one that I've used myself) you need to calibrate both the program and the telescience in-game to even make it successful. Fun fact: You know that calibrate in telescience for the crystals? There's a chance that after every teleport, that the calibration turns wrong, especially if you re-calibrate the crystals, as it will change the whole of telescience, meaning you have to redo from the start. "Sadly, teleportations (the exact number is randomized every calibration) the Telepad will decalibrate. This means that the telepad simply will not work, and when you hit recalibrate again, you will have to recalibrate your offsets." In a way, it certainly can help traitors but this is ENTIRELY subjective. You can say that a traitor can use telescience for anything.. stealing an item / object, stealing a locker, stealing <insert whatever here>, teleporting a person or even teleporting a bomb onto someone to blow them up. But EVERYTHING is subjective in this way. Let's just magically say that you know the coordinates for where an item you have to steal is.. what's to say the item is still there? What's to say someone hasn't already taken it or walking around with it? What's to even say you got the right coordinates? How are you going to take it off the person constantly walking around, with their coordinates changing every second? Another fun fact: Unless that person has sensors onto full, they'll NEVER have full coordinates to figure out where you even are. And even if you did manage to get lucky and say teleport a bomb onto someone / somewhere and it goes off, if that person survives / is SR'd / cloned, they'll scream of a magical teleporting bomb, and who does that point the finger to? Whoever is in science, meaning a full crackdown on science and telescience being deconstructed. And there is a delay on teleporting, both in receive and send.. of at least 3-5 seconds, enough time for anything to go wrong or happen. As Jazz pointed out, this can easily be fixed by marking an area with the teleportation block flag, which most important areas in the game usually do have. Plus what exactly are you going to do? You're a traitor or just someone mucking about, and you teleport yourself to any of theses locations (And their respected outcomes): Syndie Outpost: You teleport over, 1) You die to a syndie NPC. 2) You get shot to death by a turret. 3) You just realized you stranded yourself on a place with no communication, no space suit, and didn't tell anyone you were doing this because you wanted the selfish loot to yourself. 4) You have someone to help you back, but mucked up by moving and forgot which tile exactly pulls you back, as there's no communication at all. Armory: You teleport over, 1) You get robusted by Armsky and announce your presense to every officer in security, you get arrested. 2) You teleport guns to yourself.. infront of all your co-workers who then report you to security. 3) You do it stealthy like, until security notices their stuff is missing and comes to the conclusion. Vault: You teleport over, 1) Realize your an idiot and got yourself stuck for the Ai to find and get arrested. 2) You bring the nuke to you, good job.. now how are you going to hide it from everyone? AI Upload: You teleport over, 1) Immediately stunned by turrets and robusted by the heads on the bridge. Everything is subjective in the location you choose and the preparations you make for it, and even if you are FULLY prepared, there's nothing to say you'll ever succeed or win. Especially if you're doing it alone. And as stated before, EVERY z level is designed to change. Maybe one round you have the white ship in z level 1 near the station.. maybe another round it's at z level 3 near the engi outpost. And some z level specific stuff don't spawn at all, it's all randomized, the locations too. No, the same situations happen as described above. How are you going to save someone from a spider if they are constantly moving? And as far as I'm aware, you can't teleport cocoons, meaning whatever people the spiders have.. will be stuck there unless freed. And what exactly are you going to use telescience for against the spiders or xenos? Trying to teleport someone to you, one spider stands on the tile.. you have a new friend come to bite your face off. It's really not.. do you know the materials and such needed for it? 1x Telepad Control Board 1x Telepad board 1x Console screen 11x Cable Coil 10x Metal Sheets 2x Glass 5x Bluespace Crystals 1x Quadratic Capacitor So not only do you need the glass and materials to make the telepad boards, you also need Bluespace crystals.. which is rare on mining to find, requiring a full 5 meesh, xenobiology to be ontop of slimes or artifical bluespace crystals which even then costs diamonds and uranium. But also a Quadratic Capactior, which you can only get by Power level 6/7, which also requires xenobiology. And then there's the random off-shoots of when you even make it. It just seems like there's a lot of miscommunication, and not taking into account various factors, while complaining about something because "It's OP". Robotists with materials in 30 minutes, can make Gygax's for all of security. Science with materials in 40-50 minutes, can make enough AEGs, X-ray implants and various other stuff for security to last them all shift. Chemisty + Science chem + Toxins can make enough bombs, explosives, grenades and the like (Especially Science Chem with reusable cases) in a flat 5 minutes to destroy, kill, or breach multiple areas on the station, especially with the latest update to chem dispensers. Medical, with sciences help, can have 4-6 cloning pod cloning people all at once. Genetists can randomly fire hulk and start smashing everything in sight. A traitor with the right know how can literally build themselves an AI upload. And those situations are deliberate and happen every single round, yet, no one calls them "OP" for the sake of "They help" when they literally make certain people / crew / antag's life a living hell. Imagine you're an antag, got all the best loot, best gear, holopara, suit to survive in space while taunting and having ago at security about how you're getting away with things. Then all of a sudden one the officer has an x-ray laser gun, with x-ray vision / implant and manages to get you into crit within a few shots that you can barely react too. Telescience is constantly random, it's barely OP.

Yeah, clearly this deserves a code 600. Such an unabashed crime carries a weight above Capital.

There, fixed it. Right? Right? 7

My god the bricks of replies this post is getting.... Alright lemme just knock out some conjectures out there about robusting helpless antags with telescience. I have never ever won terror spiders or xenomorphs while doing telescience paramedic, nor have I ever seen anyone besides myself participate in telescience during such events. Literally friggen everybody ghosts to try and posses spider bodies and xeno bodies, which is probably the only reason they win a good portion of the time. I have done telescience paramedic with my own self sustaining cloning setup multiple times during crisis, and every single time the crew lost. Because I don't know if anyones noticed but do terror spiders and xenomorphs have a hard time winning? Have you ever actually legitimately yourself in game seen someone use telescience to robust a spider or xenomorph in such a gamebreaking way that you actually took the time to think to yourself, "hot damn telescience is really making it difficult for these antagonists..." Also just to be clear there already exists a flag that can be applied to any area that prevents any and all teleportation, hence replacing this "jammer" yall keep talking about. If you want to add a jammer for actual players in science to go and build to protect the AI then by all means I'll code it for ya. Fun fact, mining ruin locations are not proceduaral and that toolbox you speak of is on that google doc I posted previously. Also fun fact, precious metal spawns are also not procedular (however it works by probability so it may or may not spawn in the pre coded locations). I got some private mixes that I spent hours on if yall wanna see instant death.... I even teleported one of those mixes onto my target once and it was messy... Chemistry is omega broke but again it's still around because it takes practice, motivation, knowledge, and access to actually use it to your advantage. Same with telescience. I said you can't teleport people being pulled by spiders... By the way this is how you robust the AI via telescience (imagine I swiped it with an intellicard). That's using a bluespace wormhole projector by the way.

Imo, we should not rely on OOC factors to ensure an interesting play experience. Right now, telescience's power is only offset by the fact that it's obscure and not many people bother with it. But like with telecomms, we reduced the complexity and also its power to make it more accessible and less frustrating to deal with when someone who knows the system too well comes along. There definitely have to be IC limits for instant teleportation from anywhere. Maybe it costs resources and has a cooldown or it can't teleport alive mobs or things above a certain mass or size. Maybe only pocket size items can be teleported. Teleporting a GPS in and then using the BSA is frustrating for the AI player but it also seems kind of creative and potentially interesting, as it's using resources that aren't always available. However, teleporting in a player into a wall behind the AI is kind of boring and gamey. It might be nice to find a way to limit telescience enough so that we can get rid of the frustrating parts but keep some of the more interesting uses, if possible. Nevertheless, "improve don't remove" is not always practical, and in my opinion, as it stands right now, telescience's removal seems like a net benefit to the gameplay experience. If we can't figure out a way to make telescience a fun mechanic, then it should be removed.

It absolutely is the topic at hand. You can't just ignore those other systems, that have the EXACT same problems as the system you are focused on when suggesting it. You need to justify and explain why this one system is different and needs to be removed entirely compared to those other ones. Particularly when Chemistry is not exclusive to Science and Botany can be just as broken to the point it was recently nerfed down. If all the things about Telescience you listed are problems, then why is it NOT problems over there, why has nobody ever suggested we delete those systems but you are suggesting we delete this one? What makes it a special case? That's the point of it. It's a counter. You can't exactly do anything against flashbangs as a Blob either, or EMPs as an IPC, Cyborg or AI, or do much about thermite and tossing in a bomb into the satellite. These things exist, you're not supposed to be omni-powerful with no chance of failure. And, again, that's why the proposed idea of a "Jammer" exists solves this very problem of yours, so it is no longer a problem. So it doesn't need to be removed because the problem is now solved, no? It's knowledge that anyone is capable of learning by game experience. Is it cheesey to know the exact same information about mining ruins? Cuz I can tell you exactly where to get a suspicious toolbox with free combat gloves on the mining asteroid, or where ruins tend to be at (Which chould include scarab eggs, so free holoparasite) That information is inevitable because them ore someone plays the more they are going to memorize and learn this kind of stuff. As for /tg/, as people are so fond of reiterating, we are NOT /tg/ and we have the people willing to put in the tools to prevent all the issues you just brought up, but the idea is being instantly shot down for what reason exactly?

Alright let me open up my comment with I have spent dozens of hours mastering telescience along with every single aspect of it (from hubs to quantum pads to z level loot to the depot etc). I've even edited the wiki and wrote the majority of the page itself. And yes, I am the guy who makes that "public hub" that has been mentioned before, so I can most definitely touch on that as well. I'm Crangus Pangaria btw. After reading both the original post and people's comments, there are some discrepancies that need to be corrected. 1.) The telepad can only teleport objects from z levels 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6. So no, you can't teleport anything you want from any z level. And, as I will touch on with depot, there are areas where telescience is not permitted. 2.) A large amount of space ruins are procedurally generated, all non-procedural telesciencable loot can be found by a google doc I created here. After using telescience dozens and dozens of times for multiple rounds, I've found that the combat gloves are the most teleported item I get from space ruins (even though there's a free double barrel shotgun, white ship circuit board, infinite hardsuits, and abandoned crates). 3.) Anything important that should not be telescience accessible that is not procedural are on z level 2 (admin ship, abductor ship, golem ship default spawn). All procedural space ruins are on levels 7-whatever the max z level is, which again is not possible with the limited 1, 3, 4, 5, 6. 4.) As far as "if your suit sensors are maxed you can get anyone," this is true unless the target is inside something with density, say a terror spider cocoon or being buckled to the ambulance. That or they're on a z level not listed above, therefore making it impossible to even use the teleporter. They're called quantum pads to be specific, and yes they can only be linked to eachother hence their harmless nature and the reason why I use them as a "public hub" rather than say an actual teleporter hub or a public telepad setup. There is a flag that can applied to an area that, when attempted to teleport to, will make the console bleep "ERROR! Target destination unreachable due to interference." This flag can be found in places like cent com, I believe the escape shuttle, the syndie depot, and probably more random places. ALL AREAS ON THE CYBERIAD ITSELF ARE NOT PROTECTED BY THIS FLAG. Yea the flag added to an area is the map altering bit that was specifically designed to prevent teleporting, so it kinda already exists.... As for the topic of calculators nobody friggen does the math by hand. It's not a question of "they're out there, and some scumbags are using them to robust telescience" its just plainly a part of telescience as it is. The actual reason why this hinders a telescience user is not difficult math but the fact that you have to manually enter target coordinates, press calculate, then enter the bearing and elevation. This stops users from pulling moving targets, as has been a real pain in the ass when I'm trying to pull a dead body being dragged by a spider... Also, absolutley nothing can stop people from using calculators, literally nothing within the realm of possibility. Ok now for me bein mad Whoever thinks that telescience has no non-antag purposes is absolutly undeniaably unequivalally wrong. There is no debate, there is a 100% productive and legitamte use for telescience. Telescience paramedic. If anyone wants to argue with me I will literally join any round, fire open telescience with a one-way quantum pad leading to medbay next to the telepad (or have my own cloning setup next to the telescience setup) and count the number of bodies I save from otherwise permanent death. There is a good chance somebody who commented on this thread has been saved by me, or has used my quantum pad network, or has been unlucky enough to be a rogue AI. As for telescience being easy to setup, yea it's stupid easy to setup. As soon as you get 6 bluespace crystals your friggen done, literally 3 minutes to build and calibrate the offsets. As an antagonist I find telescience as an omega cheese, but only in certain circumstances. In order to properly use telescience to complete objectves, you have create stuff (eg bombs) to actually use it. This makes it slightely less robust, however still powerful. Personally after 500 hours of paradise I have never once been killed by telescience; however, I have used telescience to greentext myself as well as subvert rogue AIs. My suggestion to nerf telescience (speaking from massive amounts of experience) prevents two of the most powerful aspects of telescience that I personally abuse. 1.) There is no area on the cyberiad thats protected with the no tele flag 2.) You get 20 something teleports per calibration My suggestion: Make it so you have to re-calibrate for every teleport and add the flag to certain places like the armory and the AI sat. If anyone has any questions regarding telescience or science in general, I am walking encyclopedia.

A new office seems overkill - they should be out in the field. A cool beret to make them look cooler for sure. One issue I have (and this has come up with various ideas for things like "senior doctor" etc) - is eliteness. What could we do to make sure people using this role don't have an elitist attitude about it, and aren't going to wave their authority around?

You do make a good case. I've been considering creating an item/structure that, when powered, blocks all teleporting effects into/out of an area. Primarily I was considering doing it for the syndie depot, but it could also work to balance telescience by making it impossible to just beam things out of the armory, for example. Problem is, if we're at the point of altering the map (adding jammers) specifically to counter telescience, perhaps you're right that we should just remove telescience instead.

Alright, there was already a recent proposal to nerf it. This isn't the same, so please read my proposal carefully before bashing it to hell and back. What is Telescience? Telescience is a Science mechanism that allows teleportation to and from a telepad to any given coordinates. If this sounds overpowered, that's because it is. For this reason, it requires a lot of math and is absent from Science roundstart, as a balance mechanism. My proposal is that it is still overpowered, and should be removed, as the core concept of it is fairly flawed. External Programs As Telescience is mostly mathematical, it is possible for someone to create a spreadsheet or external program that does the math for you. In fact, this actually did happen on /tg/. "But Tar," you say, "You're being a clown right now. Just ban external programs!" Well yes, this could be done, and kind of already is thanks to the metagaming ban, except this would also ban scientific calculators. You know. The intended method of using telescience. Unless someone writes down the math on an ingame sheet of paper or something, we can't very well go around bwoinking people saying "HOW DID YOU FIGURE OUT THE DIFFERENTIALS LAWBREAKING SCUM?". Legitimate Uses There aren't really that many legitimate uses for telescience. Basically just things like looting the armory, teleporting bombs into the AI core, teleporting bombs elsewhere... Unless the AI is malfunctioning, there's not that many reasons for non-antags to actually use telescience. It's a solution without a problem. I'm not sure if space loot is randomized (I've never gone exploring space before), but if it isn't then that's also a problem because you can essentially use telescience to get space loot without any effort. Furthermore, there also isn't a real way to counter telescience. A traitor scientist armed with the math (or maybe one of those external programs) and the willpower to build a telescience set (which isn't that hard, it's just a telepad or two and a computer last time I checked) can snap their fingers and wipe out anything with practically no effort. Can Telescience Be Saved? Yes, Telescience is very overpowered. This is why it has been given it's downsides. Making it very hard has already been tried, and as I have shown, that won't necessarily work. There aren't that many other ways to nerf it. You could, perhaps, make it frustratingly random, but then no one would use it and you might as well just remove it. In conclusion, telescience is very easily exploited, is difficult to balance due to the very nature of it, has no real reason to be used by nonantags, and the main balancer (math) can be worked around. For this reason, I am requesting that the telescience machines be made unavailable for building by the crew. Thank you for reading.