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Qur! The warbling Skrell that makes me love the fact we have a sound for that emote every time I encounter them. GOOD STUFF. She's adorable.

SO, I just spend 7 straight hours putting this together. I had possibly one of my favourite rounds, or at least my favourite involving an AI, yesterday night as CE. It was a custom event, a meteor shower, and then a Giant ass meteor heading towards Sec. So, as you can imagine, as CE, I had my hands... quite full... with trying to deal with everything. I got cargo to order as many meteor shields as their shuttle could carry, and tried my best to organize my WONDERFUL engineers into action. They were great. So, we managed to patch up the station with some help from CC, and sec opened up the giant ass meteor stuck in their armory to reveal an ash drake. But, it's my job to repair the damage AFTER it is done, so I didn't get involved much. However, the highlight of the game was when the starting AI stopped... well, working. It was still present, but it didn't wipe itself. So the RD had to make a new one, and a plucky little scientist volunteered- Ava. So they took out her brain and stuck it in an AI core, and brought it to upload, much closer to bridge. I had finished with most of the repairs that needed doing, and I'd never really... talked with an AI much, as I've never had the luxury of being actually in the same room as them (much). So I decided to talk, and I knew Ava was quite a good conversationalist. It got... pretty philosophical. At first I actually thought you could take the brain back out of the AI, but after trying to do that 'decommission (try every tool you know of to de-construct it then realize you can't and just harm-welder it to death0 the previous AI, I realized it wasn't actually possible to go back to ones fleshy organic form after you get AI'd. Ava slowly turned from their normal Vulpy self to something much more synthetic, which was fun to role-play out. Asking what would happen if they had different laws, they being unable to give any sort of opinion if they wanted their laws changed or not, just finding out the limits there were being an AI after the freedom of being a crew-member. Ava questioned if Giki would decommission her like she did the other AI, and some other pretty hard question. Perhaps the most major thing is that you're not getting payed anymore, and you become less of a crew-member and more of an object. Laws also influence you, so you could never be sure if you're actually you anymore or not... It's pretty spooky if you think about it, and quite a unique problem to the usual 'Non-post-organic AI'. Anyway, at the end when the shuttle was called, I asked the RD if i could add a new law. Law 15- "You are still the Vulp you once were, don't forget that." or something to that degree, so Ava could still hold on to that personality of hers without being overcome by the torrent of synthetic signals and directives. Though an Ion law came in right after saying 'You need week berries to survive but we... fixed that. ANYWAY it was a TERRIFIC round and honestly I'm so glad I stayed up way past a reasonable hour to play it. Ava is best Vulpai.

So first off, I'm unsure if this is the correct sub-forum but at the heart of this thread will be a change of server policy that I think will make the server better so here goes. To get started, let me state how we go about admin notes for those who might not be aware. The basic idea is that when an admin sees a player do something wrong, be it an invalid murder or just poor behavior, and they message you about it they will usually leave a note on your account that other admins can see that describes what happened. It could be as simple as "Player killed some guy when he wasn't an antag, corrected behavior and issued a warning" or as complex as they like. From the little I know they are usually at least a few sentences that describe what the player did wrong and the steps that were taken to rectify the problem. These notes are kept a secret and can only be viewed by admins. Now let me talk about Colonial Marines. The basic principle is the same on CM, they see bad behavior, they correct it and make a note about it and how they handled it. The large difference is visibility. At any point if a player wanted to know about their notes all they could ahelp and the admin will show them their notes. Now, for a third example of how I've seen it done, let me talk about Bad Deathclaw, the Fallout server. Once again, the basic principle is the same except the big difference is there is a button in the OOC tab at the top right where you can just click the button and it'll pop up your admin notes, making it so that the player can view them whenever they want and see the names of the admins that left the notes so they know who to address questions to. Now, onto the problem. The last time I asked an admin, that I will not name unless asked by another admin, about what my notes were I was told that I was not allowed to know. They said that it was for admin use only and they were afraid that if players were able to view their own notes then the admins would be less likely to leave notes when they see players doing bad things. As much I can respect that thought I still disagree that it should be a barrier to players being able to know what they might have done wrong. I've been told different things in the past about my own notes but I've never been able to get a straight answer. Imagine, if you will, you were on trial before a judge. They had evidence against you but you and/or your lawyer weren't allowed to know what that evidence was and you would be judged by that evidence alone. I want to be able to know what I have done wrong in the past to eliminate that behavior for good. I want to know problems that admins have had with how I play so I can do a better job of trying to protect that behavior. Having something explained to me is never as effective as when I can just read it myself. My proposal should be obvious by this point. I suggest that we adopt one of the two systems in use by our sister servers of Bad Deathclaw or Colonial Marines. Either notes are something that the player can view whenever they want or they are something that we can just ask an admin to give to us if we feel we want to know what they are. Honestly, I doubt that the policy will change but I wanted to make a public statement on why I think they should change where others would be able to offer their own ideas and make the server better. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Something else that I wanted to address that is closely related to this but I don't think was worth it's own thread was the new policy on ban discussion on discord. I was fine with the old policy where active bans weren't to be discussed in the public discord because, honestly, that just wasn't the place for players to be discussing it with various staff members. The new policy though on no discussion of bans, past or present, is troubling to me. To me it signals a desire to shut down conversations about punitive measures that have been taken in the past and the reasons for which they were applied. If people aren't allowed to discuss what they might have done wrong in the past for others to read then how are they to know where the lines are drawn. The server rules aren't perfect and there are some grey areas in them, mainly in the self-defense area. I've seen players brutally kill antags in self-defense with no repercussions but then I've seen other situations that were vastly different. Obviously, I won't go into details for the reasons stated above. The lessons of past examples is invaluable, it allows players to share what is bannable behavior with actual in-game experiences and past admin actions. I know the ban appeal forum is there for everyone to read but it feels like it's not enough. Forums can feel dead and slow while the discord is a free forum for fast dialogue and expression that no forum will ever be able to match. I suggest that this new policy is reversed and we return to the previous policy where only current bans can't be discussed. If you've gotten to this point, thank you for reading.

Notes are an internal tool used to track various things that need to persist across players, not just warnings and bans, such as good things ("this player did a good job in this event; consider picking them for RP heavy event roles in the future") or iffy things that might not be an issue but should be thought about in the future ("this player seems to quit early a lot. Look into further if you also notice this pattern"). It would be very limiting to make them be public, since we would be facing a note appeal any time anything negative appeared. This increases bureaucracy for no good reason at all and changes the way notes would be used. Any time a note becomes consequential, you'll know about it anyways, and can dispute it then. For example, an admin might cite previous occurrences of an issue in banning someone. It's not really that big of a deal. If you're not a player who's had repeated problems with following the rules, your notes are going to be extremely boring at best. You don't need to be worried about an invisible "downward spiral", because you will know it's happening due to repeated warnings from admins. We are not here to discipline you or turn you into a better person or parent you. We're just here to try to make sure people are following the rules, and if we don't tell you what rules you're breaking, then what's the point? To have a "gotcha!" moment as we surprise ban you forever? Almost everyone gets a 2nd chance after a ban here, anyways. If you believe an admin has warned you in mistake, we've got plenty of examples of admin complaints where an incorrect warning has been rescinded (and the corresponding note also revised/removed). I would be in favor of an optional private admin complaints forum. Not everyone is comfortable complaining about staff publicly. I'm not sure which admin said this to you, but if you have logs of this, please file an admin complaint. It's my personal experience that admins generally try to explain what rule you broke, especially if you're new. If this sort of thing is happening, it's a reason to file an admin complaint and let that admin know they aren't being detailed enough, not a reason to change the notes system.

Going to use this topic to gather feedback on a concept I had in mind. Idea: Rework bleeding to happen on limbs instead of over the whole body, each limb that bleeds increases your bleed rate. Slight bleeding in general will be much less lethal but severe bleeding will be much more lethal much quicker. You will be able to use wirecutters to cut up clothing into makeshift rags that you can use to patch yourself which will reduce or stop bleeding depending on how bad the bleeding is and whether or not the wound is still damaged. Dismembered limbs will bleed a lot more but burn damage can be used to cauterize bleeding limbs at the cost of obviously causing damage. Please share thoughts and concerns

The heart of the matter, to me, is that it doesn't help the player for them to be kept secret, it only helps the admins. If you make it so that the player can read their own notes whenever they want then they have a complete record of times where they did something that they should not have. It also removes some ambiguity from when people like myself have had applications declined due to note history but then when I inquired I wasn't told what the problem was, only that it existed. Being judged publicly based on private information is a problem. It would also be nice, assuming what the admin I spoke to a while ago said, that if some admins leave positive notes to be able to see things that impressed admins about how people played.

We've had this talk a few more times since then. While I might not have given my reasoning for wanting it at the time, several other players and staff expressed their distaste for it, and have since. I'm inclined to agree with them now, four years later.

Written some lore at @farie82's request. The second draft needs further tweaking, but is as follows:

As I understand it, the general issue we're talking about here is "The Security department doesn't have enough competent regular players; how do we change this?" I can't guarantee I have a great answer, but as someone who plays HoS on a regular basis and, as a player occasionally described as "competent" by members of the community, I'll offer my two cents. I'm going to start by saying something obvious: Playing in the Security Department is very tense and nerve-wracking by its very nature. Playing as Warden or Security Officer in the early round is tense and yet also very boring, as anyone in those roles essentially needs to wait for the antags to make their first move before the action can really start. Often times I'll see the security department start with 5-6 officers, only for 3-4 of those officers to jump into cryostorage before the first 30 minutes of the round have passed. This is why I love playing HoS but cannot stand playing as a regular officer and can barely stomach warden: the HoS almost always has something to keep them busy from the start of the round to the end, but regular officers are often stuck wandering around aimlessly until they get that call of "H-H-HA-A-LP M-M-A-A-IN-T-T-T!", or they run face-first into an antag. Since antags are packed to the gills with easy methods of killing someone without warning, the average sec officer will not survive the latter scenario. This isn't a situation that necessarily can be changed, nor am I certain that it even should be changed. But it's worth keeping in mind that the feeling of vulnerability and nervousness tends to make playing regular security a pain in the ass on its own. On top of that, nobody really expects much of you as a regular sec officer: You have access to basically nothing other than a few doors in the brig, your body armor is useful for essentially jack shit since EVA boots, area-of-effect stuns and stun resistance decide the outcome of more battles than a few points of reduced brute damage ever did, and default security officer uniforms are honestly pretty ugly to look at. These are conditions that, while unfortunate, can't really be changed without asking coders to invest exorbitant amounts of free time into designing new systems from scratch, so it's less stressful in the long run to just accept them as things that cannot be changed. I cannot speak to what other "competent sec regulars" think about the above conditions, but I personally get around it by playing as HoS. That said, there's still quite a few circumstances and situations that appear repeatedly, and whittle down my enthusiasm to continue playing and often contribute to my decisions to go on hiatus from SS13. I'll outline a few below, and in each case, I've put some thought into why they generally irritate me and how I think small adjustments could make those situations easier to handle: Situation 1: Unstoppable Space Assholes The first situation I'll describe is when security has simply become outclassed by one or more antags. Either sec has lost too many officers in a single really bad engagement, or an antag has a particularly brutal gimmick that they used to systematically kill off security officers (such as a gimmick combining spacelube with holo atmos barriers and several extremely well-placed holes in maint leading into the deadly vacuum of space). The armory is empty, pod pilot's dead. Bonus points if the antag(s) in question continuously taunt security over the security radio channel using bowman headsets looted from dead security officers, additional bonus points if the antag(s) have killed the pod pilot and are camped out in EVA knowing that security cannot follow them effectively due to all EVA suits being taken. Extra-Bonus Bonus Bonus points if the antag(s) set up a security records console offstation and uses their stolen security IDs to constantly set everyone on the station to arrest with cheeky messages left in their notes. There's a specific player or two I could name who absolutely love to pull this every time they're selected for an infiltration antag role, but it's by no means exclusive to a few individuals. This is annoying when it's just one player doing it, but sometimes there'll be a round where it's two or three extremely competent changelings working together or two or three vamps who've reached fullpower. I have yet to see a security player get trapped in this sort of a situation without getting extremely tilted over it. I have a suggestion on how these situations could be made more bearable, but I'll leave it to the end. Situation 2: Mary Sue Edgelord Antagonists Shadowlings Go to youtube, crank "In the End" (or any other Linkin Park song that puts a little too much work into being "dark and edgy") at full volume, and you have a summary of your average Security experience during a Shadowling round. Except the average Linkin Park song only makes you suffer for about three to four minutes while the suffering of a Shadowling round can last anywhere from fifteen minutes to an hour and a half depending on how quickly the Shadowlings gather up thralls. More than anything else, Shadowling rounds in specific burn me out and turn me away from Paradise more than anything I've experienced in this game. (Yes, that includes rounds where I've been transform stung, cluwned, laughter demon'd, ganked by vindictive AIs moments away from the shuttle, and mindswapped by wizards who devote the rest of the round to doing the most embarrassing shit imagineable while mindswapped into my character's body). I list this as reason #2 as Shadowlings are considerably rarer than hyper-competent antagonists, but even one Shadowling round is more than any security player needs to put up with. I have had the intense misfortune of playing as HoS during multiple Shadowling rounds and not once have I ever had fun, even the few times where the Shadowlings didn't ascend and kill everyone, and not once have I ever seen a Shadowling round through to the end and seen, "OOC: Man, that shadowling round was so fun!". Nobody has ever said that. It's an antag type that, despite receiving several adjustments, was built upon horrendously and fundamentally flawed design principles. You want an example of these design principles? When Shadowlings were first added, they could use their area-of-effect stuns on people through walls with no direct line-of-sight (they still can if I'm not mistaken), Shadowling enthrallment not only skipped over mindshields completely, but was also impossible to detect and impossible to reverse, Shadowlings could use guns with no restrictions, stun and enthrall crew members without even hatching first, and even shadowling thralls used to have a single target stun+mute ability of their own that lasted several times longer than the average stun weapon or slip--this particular thrall stun worked even when the thralls were blindfolded and cuffed. Shadowlings were ported from another codebase, so our coders are not responsible for their initial state. However, while the coders have put an immense amount of work into making Shadowlings something that isn't, well, fucking bullshit, my experience of reading dchat and OOC after Shadowling rounds leads me to conclude that the only players who enjoy themselves during a Shadowling round are the Shadowlings themselves, and nobody else. My personal aversion to Shadowlings is enough that the simple possibility of being duped into playing sec during a Shadowling round often has me choosing to observe instead of play, or just to close BYOND altogether and find something off my Steam library rather than inflict a Shadowlings round on myself. Situation 3: Surprise Adminbus I initially really didn't want to make this its own entry for a few different reasons, but I still have faith that Paradise's admins prefer to hear feedback and criticism rather than let it fester silently until their players leave without a word, so I'll out and say it: Admin events often paint a giant crosshair on the security department that nobody in security is ready for, and having the department wiped out by admin-spawned or admin-controlled antags is not something that feels fun, ever. This has happened enough times in recent memory (as in, three times in one month) that I feel the need to point it out. This includes more than one situation where the admins have admitted to spawning in as Terror Spiders and giving themselves free breaks such as spawning in swarms of NPC Terrorspiders and forcing eggs to hatch instantly and mature into full-grown terrors without any delay, another round where a Syndicate Infiltration Team was spawned with the intention of assaulting the Brig in particular (and a Terrorspider batch spawned directly after the Syndicate Infiltration Team withdrew, and no ERT was called because fuck me for liking security I guess), and a round where a 'pirate raid' event basically degenerated into "five syndicate agents and five nukeops in pirate costumes are given a green light to murderbone all of sec without warning." I don't think tallying up grudges against individuals on the staff team is really worth the energy, and I don't want to burn bridges here, so I'll try to put this as directly as possible: I want to continue playing and enjoying Security. When Admin Events take that enjoyment away, I lose the desire to continue playing security. Situation 4: Greytide? To be honest, I don't actually find that I have a huge problem with greytide on the server at present. On an average shift, truly dedicated 'greytiders' never number more than 1-3 at most, and they're usually not coordinated with eachother, nor do they inflict undue harm. The admins, I find, are very active and effective when it comes to curbing more extreme and harmful Greytiders, while I perceive minor acts of Greytide as a sort of departmental inoculation, in which new officers learn how to avoid getting sucker-punched, blindsided and humiliated in safe non-catastrophic manner, without disastrous consequences for the rest of security. For instance, if an officer repeatedly refuses to listen to their HoS and fellow officers telling them that, "Dude, wandering around with a taser in one hand and your active stunbaton in your other hand on code green is a bad idea" then by all means that officer deserves to get robusted and dumpstered like the securitrash they are: Having a tolerated margin of greytide just means that when this robusting and dumpstering inevitably happens, the greytider will usually turn in their stolen gear afterwards or limit the amount of chaos that comes from testing security's weakest link. If not for Greytide, then that same officer would be getting dragged off and straight out killed by an antag without anyone in sec knowing, granting that antag free stun weapons, a sec headset and a sec ID which generally paves the way for Unstoppable Space Assholes to occur, as described above. For instance, I once had a warden who silently wandered off into maints on their own and tried to act like a security officer, silent and taser in-hand. A changeling promptly captured the warden, mindswapped into him, and nobody in sec knew until the Warden-changeling had already killed the detective and HoS, and released other lings from custody. Now if a casual greytider had intercepted the warden and given him a well-deserved asskicking before his fateful run-in with the changeling in maint, things probably wouldn't have descended into utter shit for the rest of security. It is the job of HoS to identify and deal with incompetence in sec: If I can't rely on an officer to save themselves from a literally unarmed civilian using nothing but disarm intent, that same officer is going to be nothing but a liability and a dead weight in a crisis situation where, for example, a traitor-changeling with sleeping carp, an armblade, and several beakers of meth decides they're going to give the brig a fresh coat of red paint. That situation is cancerous enough to deal with when there's a competent security team; you don't need a useless assclown Officer tasering you in the back of the head because they hadn't been tested and washed out by the greytide. Situation 5: Radio Abuse? Much like I don't have a huge problem with greytiders, I've never really had a significant issue with people screaming about shitcurity over the radio. Don't get me wrong: it can get risky if you try to simply ignore it without justifying yourself. Honestly? If someone's having trouble because they're getting yelled at by the crew the advice I give them is "suck it up, buttercup." Now, if someone is cussing you out on the comms, the worst thing you can do is lose your head over it. Nothing screams "I AM COMPLETELY IN THE WRONG AND FAIL TO JUSTIFY MYSELF" like responding to verbal criticism with physical force. It's just a pattern of human nature: How many oppressive regimes accidentally sparked violent rebellions because they tried to suppress non-violent protests using violence? If someone is accusing you of monstrous behaviour, the least useful thing you can do in that situation is gratify those accusations by acting like the monster they're accusing you of being. So, as arresting someone for screaming "shitsec" is off the table, the best thing is really to challenge and defeat them in their own arena: public debate. If someone accuses you of being shitsec, ask them to explain why with specific evidence. If they explain why and their reasons are valid then, well, unfortunately that's kind of your fault or the fault of someone in your department that you need to address. If they're just screaming shitsec because they're incompetent self-centred morons or they just want to stir shit up, then you calmly and systematically point out all the gaps and contradictions in their logic before dismissively telling them to stop embarrassing themselves. There may be a temptation to descend into ad hoc attacks or fabrications, but make sure you stick as close to objective fact as possible, and demand as much from whoever's trying to insult you. If you make your point and they don't respond for a few minutes, don't press the matter or you'll just look conceited; they'll probably resume their verbal abuse in a few minutes once they think you're distracted, but the important thing is to take them down a few pegs in the arena of public debate, which seriously hampers their ability to gather much support. If it's just a case that greytiders are causing shit and screaming verbal abuse at you and hurting your feelings because you stopped them from doing annoying stuff, just ignore them and process them in accordance to law. Do give them a chance to explain themselves. Speak calmly and politely, ask them for their side of the story. If they respond in kind or with any sort of eloquence or RP at all, then process them properly and maybe give them a few minutes off if they calm down and have any sort of plausible explanation for their behavior. If they give you an utterly shitty zero-RP response like "No U" or "FUCK YOUR MOM SHITCURITY CUNTS FUCK YOU FUCK YOU!" etc. then here's what you do: Laborcamp. Actually, laborcamp has a very unique quirk to it that you should keep secret until it gets patched, but I'll get to that in a moment. Making Security More Attractive So, enough of the kvetching about what situations make players feel punished for being security. What do I think could help Security players feel better about playing and less likely to say 'fuck it' and play another role or another server? Well I'm glad I asked me, because I've got a few suggestions. Laborcamp So, back to 'laborcamp'. You know how I said it had an unusual quirk to it? Well, here's the deal: It's broken. The Laborcamp is intended to be a system in which prisoners with temporary sentences are forced to do mining, meaning that the only way they can return to the station is if they contribute quantifiable repayment to the station in the form of mining materials. Most greytiders, when sent to the mining camp, will die. This is because greytiders have a deadly allergy to being anything other than useless pieces of shit and the sheer idea of being forced to do something that could be described as 'helpful' in order to go back to being a useless fuck is enough to make them alt+f4. Here's the rub, though: The laborcamp is literally broken. As in even if you give a prisoner a reasonable point quota, the laborcamp's shuttle airlocks are not set up properly to allow prisoners to return to the station even if they actually mine and gather minerals. It's basically a secret death sentence you can give to unrepentant greytiders, and I'll confess that if a greytider fails hard enough at RP'ing and has a clearly rule-violating name then I might end up sending them out there despite knowing full well that the laborcamp is in fact bugged and is literally impossible to complete a mining quota there in its current state without an officer actually going up to the labourcamp to tally the mineral stacks by-hand. I figure that the fact the laborcamp does not work properly is on the coder team and the admins, not me as a player, and I'll also send out an ahelp asking for permission to use the laborcamp for temporary sentences before sending anyone out there. So, that's the first item on my wishlist: Make the laborcamp actually work properly. It's a great way to separate the truly malevolent greytiders from players who just went a little too far but are willing to calm down and mine some materials for science in order to return to the round. That basically solves the more severe greytide problems right there. Note that Space Law NEEDS to be updated with a section that specifically states that laborcamp can be used for temporary sentences. Last time I tried to use the laborcamp to dispose of greytiders I got in an extremely pointless and frustrating argument with the HOP who insisted that the laborcamp could not be used for temporary sentences since spacelaw does not explicitly say so (despite the fact that prisoner IDs are supposed to have mineral quotas set for temporary labor sentences and why the fuck would the laborcamp be called the laborcamp if there is literally no incentive for the prisoners to do labor out there at all?) Reduced Powergaming Stigma in Crisis Situations So a few people have suggested giving security more special items and buffs to entice people to play: I strongly disagree. Not only are basically no coders willing to go through all that, but offering sec cool new guns, gadgets or mechanical bonuses is likely to attract exactly the wrong sort of players--namely, the ones running around with both their taser and baton in-hand on code green, ignoring radios, and wearing the default HoS armor. (As an aside, I'd love if donuts actually healed security like they used to before goonchem, but I know even that's asking for too much). Generally, security already can get access to some incredibly potent gear by the end of a productive shift: Genetics powers, RnD guns and implants, and of course robotics usually has at least 1 durand if mining wasn't spawncamped by a colossus or ashdrake. It's my opinion that durands ought to be a bit of a contentious topic, seeing as it's basically impossible for the average antag to actually take down a durand without breaking server rules regarding excessive destruction, let alone rounds where robotics just decides to crank out 5 durands in a row and give them all to sec because they've got nothing better to do (I'd actually be fine with durands being nerfed slightly or at least having a higher resource cost to prevent this sort of mass-production from ruining an antag's round, but that's for another thread). I'd prefer if security had to rely on the competency, cooperation and goodwill of other departments to obtain strong late-game gear, as it gives security a much greater incentive to protect those departments from danger, stay on good terms with the departments, and keep them operational. The main issue here is that there is a rather strong stigma discouraging security from 'powergaming' behaviour that means sec rarely gets their hands on this sort of lategame gear: genetics powers like x-ray, utilities like bags of holding, accelerator lasercannons, anti-stun tooth pills don't see very frequent use amongst security, even when the antags have availed themselves of many of these sorts of upgrades alongside their starting antag abilities and powers. Back all the way to "annoying situation 1", it'd be considerably easier to deal with a gang of fullpowered vamps or rampant changelings if security had more leeway to escalate by getting antistun dental implants or collaborate with the other departments to cook up a few nasty surprises of their own to respond to the powered antags with. TL;DR: People don't play in security because officers dumb; antags smart. Shadowlings dumber than sec most times but shadowlings win anyways because designed by edgelord coder who never wanted his precious creation to lose even when played by imbeciles. Greytide annoying but greytide can be dealt with using laborcamp. To fight smart antags officers should be allowed to escalate and meme it up just as hard as the antags with goonchem meth memes and genetics fuckery if things get far enough out of hand.