SpaceTimeNow

I can see that point, but currently being security means just running around and dragging lots of people in the cell. Which i consider not being fun at all, for for both sides. If i play security i want to be able to search evidence, question people, all that stuff and then making a meaningful arrest, but the server is way to fast for that. To many crimes, most of all the small ones, but how should you differenciate if it's just someone breaking into science for the lulz or because he really an antag. Probably half the people you serarch will have questionable stuff on them, how should you start any meaningful investigation if your enviroment is full of crime. The moment you understand security and "get good" at it, is probably the same moment where the player realisies how pointless it all is and will lose interesst. In short: If i play security i want quality over quantity and if that's not given then i simply won't play it.

Somehow i cannot believe that linda is as slow on other servers as it is by us. On paradise you have to use portable scrubbers and pumps like vacuum cleaner and drag them over all the tiles. Even with how linda works, it should equalize tiles a lot faster, i believe there are just some enormous bugs in the code. If an area needs like 20 minutes to equalize than there is something really fucked up. Edit: words

Yeah i agree, but that will not happen. But maybe better Linda?

Are there any updates for Linda that could be ported?

Twitch is the way i found this game, so i am acutally curious about this. Have you every tried contacting some youtuber or twitch streamer and invited them to the Server? I allways though that the few that know about this game would not show it because of the fear that server owners won't like it.

I cannot confirm this at all, my experience is way different. After years of playing SS13 i can probably safely say that basically know what i am doing. It's going so far that even other doctors grap people away from me without a single word and run them of to cryo or god knows where. Simply because i stood infront of the patient that approached me and was typing a greeting. This is not on single incedent people do that all the time, they see a bar that is not green and grab the person, throw them in a machine and force feed some meds and then drag them out of the medbay without a single word. This is the kind community you foster here. If you can move slowly away from RP why does it not work the other way around? It is not all about speed and efficiency, i can remember some extremly long rounds which were probably some of the best rounds i have ever played. SS13/ Paradise does not come with a ton of actual content out of the box. Research and mining are the only real real jobs that have some sort of built in progression and the end of this progression can also be reached fairly quickly. The actual content of the game is the RP and you don't need to be the best and most robust player in order to RP with other people. This git gud mentallity is nothing short but toxic, i mean just read this thread: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8103. He or she is basically being told, here read the entire wiki until then, we don't really want to have to deal with you. Well, i just saw you comment in it so i guess you read it already and do you see anything wrong with that? I am not sure i can see the difference. What you are saying is that you changed the rules in order tailor them to the people who prefer powergaming. It is not suprising that RPers are a minority, it's like that in every game. Mostly because people are kinda scared of RP or they have been told that RPers are weirdos, many people just don't give it a fair chance. If you give people the freedom to completly ignore RP then they probably won't try, especially if the enviroment is so toxic to RPers.

For me It perfectly descripes the situation of paradise right now. I have been playing on this server since day one so if feel some kind of responsibility, but a lot has changed and this is sadly what the community has become. I really wish we could change again, but sadly i have not much hope for that.

So you are saying it's better to change the rules instead of enforcing them? You can't have RP without playing a role because that is literally what RP means. However you call it, hardcore, medium or low RP, you can't escape the fact that people need to have different defined roles and such roles come with certain skillsets, responsibilites and restrictions. The only roles on paradise that have at least some from of character left are the Head of Staff position, the rest ist just one grey mush of everyone doing everything. You were already allowed to change your role ingame pretty easy, you just need to head to the HoP, it is really not that difficult. It is not only unrealistic but most of all it is fucking disrespectful to run into medbay and go and heal yourself or your friend while there are like 4 Doctors waiting to do their job. It is kinda sad that admins on this server join more and more to the powergaming crowd. Edit: This is in my opinion the sane way to go, do stuff if there is actually nobody else who would do it and don't go over the top with it.

Every time you guys talk about metagaming you somehow ingore the fact that we indeed had knowledge limited and it worked fine. It was not to strict and nobody cared if a doctor did set up the engine because there was nobody in engineering, or if a civilian stepped in and helped in medbay when it was helplessly overcrowded, but those were exceptions in which those rules were bend in order to progress the round. A general knowledge of everything is just stupid, what's the point of being a doctor if everyone just runs passed you and picks the right medicine out of the fridge and leaves. It discourages interaction with other players, which is almost ever a bad thing! @Fox: I am kinda shocked, but mostly dissapointed to see this being posted by you.

Thumbs up for the great response! Very detailed and one can tell that you thought a great deal about the topics and that certain issues are already being addressed. Neat! One topics that i probably never can let go is LINDA, because for me atmos was one of "the" features that made ss13 special. I do understand that atmos code is difficult stuff and that Linda might be currently the best solution, at least code design and compatibility. Performance wise i feel it is so extremly slow that it just feels wrong and took all the "eviromental danger" from the rounds. What is the consensus on the current atmos situation, are you actually happy with where it is? I worked on a PR for this (https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/4752) but it was not popular, so I moved on to other ideas. I don't think it is so much about that we need something new in medical, but rather that we have this abundance of really powerful options to heal every condition. I think a lot of the "difficulty" in medical is lost because Chemistry simply can but out way higher quantities than ever before. Additionally Cryo has become more effective, not only the actual healing amount or cooling down speed of patients but also the fact that it very effectivly only feeds small quantities of cryosoup and is not as wasteful as before. Not to mention the new instant healings that patches provide or that the sleepers can be upgraded to just generate almost every med. There were so many new features ported and mushed together, it simply lost all coherence.

Agreed

I think it should be possible to create any race by modifying the DNA in Genetics, i think that is still not a thing and i would assume that is also the problem why Vox can't propperly changeling morph into other people. Unless that has been fixed somewhere down the line, i haven't played that much lately.

What i am kinda interessted in is, did this thread get us somewhere? I mean there are like 50 replies and like 1500 views, can we pull something out of this or did we just state our opinions and then go on as if nothing happened? Since the only people that can effect real change are admins / coders i would like to pass that question to them specifically.

I never intended to imply that sec should not arrest those people but that we need to reduce the amount actual crimes going on in order to handle every arrest that is made with way more professionalism. That is not enough for me, it can't be a gamble if you actually get some justice solely based on the fact that maybe there is a magistrate and that he actually cares. We need strictly ingame punshiments and guidelines to what and what not to do. The moment a Admin has to be involved the system has already failed. Also i have respect for how the admins operate and i think they do a good job, the moment you need to involve a admin you are speaking in out of game terms. It is not fun for anyone involved. Adminhelp is not the place to argue over evidence and make deals or spin a clever alibi. Granted my suggestions is also depending on IAAs and Magistrate being peresent, but this is sort of the chicken or the egg dilemma. You will only have people play IAA and Magistrate if they are more than just ignored fluff positions. If they are made a integral part of the justice system, then i am sure they will be around way more regulary. Additionally currently prisoners are more ofthen than not completely stripped of everything and don't even have a way to communicate with such positions. And this only happens because there are no enforced rules as to how to treat a prisoner. I played Brig Physician for a few rounds just to observe what security is going inside the brig. And most rounds i simply felt ashamed that i was part of security. People were completely stripped of everything: clothes, PDAs and even the light bulbs were mandatory removed from the cells. I mean what the actual fuck is going on there? I stood near the prisioners speechless as to how fucked up they were treated for a petty theft. I am aware of that, but as i stated in my first post, they need to be more clearly defined and contain repercussions if they are not met, otherwise they are just a mostly ignored fluff piece in some wiki. So they are kind of irrelevant for this discussion, appart from being a foundation on which to write better / stricter guidelines. In practice it seems to be completly optional until it gets to far out of hand and you have to involve admins, at which point i already lost any desire to play. That's not true, probably the best evidence is observing the crime yourself, or maybe ask the hopefully impartial AI, or collect witness testimony, everyone can question a suspect and find discrepancies or find somethin incriminating on the suspect. Of course a detective can do more than that, but a normal officer has plenty of options which are just not utilized. Also nothing is stopping you from putting something in a evidence bag and hand it to the Detective to get some fingerprints. If a person can't be bothered to write a few lines then said persion simply is not fit to play security. Yes it might suck, but everyone is allowed to deal with it in their own special way. I can't really blame those people because being brigged is not engaging at all, most of the time you don't get the option to defend yourself legally. Best case everybody ignores you, worst case you are physically and mentally violated for stealing a golden pen. You yourself complain about the people suiciding in the cell, how can you not see the gains of giving people something to do while in prision. You might have found a solution for you and just tab out, but there are probably a lot of people that don't want this disconnect from the round. I for myself want to continue playing and interacting with people, but if you are simply ignored and denied everything while stuck in a 3x3 box, what the hell are you supposed to do?

Everyone and their mother is whining about how terrible security is but why don't we change any of this? The current problem i see is the following: We have way to many meaningless crimes on the station. People stealing stuff because they can't be bothered to wait or even ask, or people that just can't accept when they are told: No! So security is overburdened with this petty crimes and handing out rushed and false charges to anyone, since a security officer has effectively no real oversight, because the often HoS has to deal with more important stuff and can't monitor everyone. As an attempt to combat all this bullshit claims, which security is in a way forced to make (because they are rushed), we changed the rules and laws so the average timer is now way lower. I think this is a terrible way to go about that, you don't get anywhere by just treating symptoms. Here are my suggestions: - Make Sec Officers accountable for what they do. There needs to be a defined operating procedure and when it is not met then the suspect / prisoner has to be released, maybe the HoS or Captain may overrule the release in case of capital crimes. - The procedures clearly define how long a suspect might be held inside security without being charged of a crime. When and if someone can be searched, or that a prisoner has to be provided with a lightbulb (ffs), just clear guidelines and instructions what and what not to do. Maybe or maybe not we inculde certain loopholes into such security procedure, like reading equivalent of reading Miranda rights like in the US. - Such procedure also requires filing out some sort of short report before someone can be put into a cell, preferrably printed by a console that has yet not been invented. Basicly pick the charges, list your evidence (ohh yes, you need evidence! If it's physical it needs to be in evidence storage) and the resulting timer. Such report has to be attached to the Cell timer in some way for quick reference. - Evidence might range from eyewitnesses to a banana peel with pruple fibers on it. The amount of evidence needs to be relative to the charge. Tresspassing might be enough if two people or a single head of staff confirms that someone came into there department uninvited, while you might need hard evidence when trying to slam someone for murder. - If avaiable, the IAA or a not yet existing job has to be involved once a suspect is been brought into security. Said person is a "neutral thrid party" which is there to ensure that the corporate procedures and interests are met. In case the officer and IAA cannot come to an agreement the Magistrate will be involved to pass final judgement. - There needs to be a law against wrongful imprisonment, incase the officer and / or the IAA are deliberately acting outside their bounds. - Code Red will override such procedure and officers may have more leeway, but they still can be held accountable afterwards if they acted way out of line. Maybe code blue is somewhere inbetween, yay for alert levels having a meaning again. Some of those things might be found somewhere in wiki, but they are not enforced inside the game. Strict guidelines that are not just words in a wiki but also enforced are extremly important, otherewise people just do what they want, currently there is very little to no oversight. Threaten with or hand out job bans if nesseary. To facilitate all those processes and extra time spend inside security and gathering evidence, we have to reduce the overall amount of crime happening on the station. Thus we need to dial up the timers for crimes again and i think it's cirtical to make resisting arrest a way more serious crime again (like 15 minutes). Let me explain why i think that is so important: Security should be more about questioning, finding enough evidence and at the end of this: arresting someone. The actual arrest should only be a small part of the work and not your main activity of an officer. A 5 minute timer on resisting arrest invites anyone to just try and run away, because it's basically free. While i from time to time appriciate a good hunt, it's not really worth if you want to arrest someone for stealing stuff from the kitchen. I think the 15 minute timer for resisting arrest did just that, because why risk 20 minutes if you could just accept your crimes and wait for 5 or ten minutes. Also, with the changes i suggested a suspect now would have a more objective person (IAA) with him when he is being processed, which i think is way more worth then a free shot to run away, just to be captured later. The ultimate goal should be that being arrested should engaging and interessting for both sides. Maybe lawyer yourself out of it or maybe make a deal to rat out someone worse than you. Currently that is impossible because officers have no time for that and are not required to make the effort. Being arrested should be more than just being shot unanounced, dragged away, stripped and put in a cell until a timer runs out, while having no say in it at all. It's an RP game so there need to be words involved otherwise it's all meaningless. Change the cells: Last but not least we need something inbetween the cells and perma brig. A location where prisoners can interact with each other in some way, because the 3x3 single person cells are boring as fuck and not suitable for anything more than a 5-10 minute stay. The cells should be able to be opened up into some sort of yard/general area. Not everyone might agree but hopefully together we can find something that works and actually change how security is done on this server. I think a working security department and law is the foundation of every ss13 round and it could be so much better.