Dinarzad

This event is what took Paradise from good to great for me. I was a new Captain, maybe my second shift. Val was my HoP. Orders came in from CC, I was ordered to marry a queen to come aboard imminently, for the sake of NT's agenda. When this order came in, my thought was to ahelp "no thanks, I'm uncomfortable with this" and cryo. I didn't feel comfortable RPing at a higher level than I had been. But I persisted. I called a meeting of the senior staff, told them that I was certainly not going to be forced into such a marriage, and if they didn't support that, I'd resign. I retained command. I gave an impassioned speech about the importance of freedom to choose. The NT Rep and I went back and forth. Johann showed up and was incredulous. I mobilized the station to fight CC over it. And then, as we were waiting for the death squad to show up, Val stepped forward, against my orders, and offered himself as a husband to the queen, to save the crew. I was in chains at the back of the Chapel as it happened screaming my protests. I had so much fun that round. That storyline would continue with Val's divorce later on. I made in-game friendships with Val and my BS that round, Kayala Guttieres, among others. All because I learned to be comfortable RPing at one notch higher. I think giving admins more creative license and more leeway for the inevitable mistakes is helpful to the community. For my part, I think Elysian is a master storyteller, and the thought and level of detail he puts into his events is incredible. Best part of all that for me, was it gave me something to do that round. I was a Journalist, usually the single most boring, nothing to do, hum-drum job you can get. And that ENTIRE time it gave me free ability to make news reports and updates on the situation, an when the marriage came in, hell I even broadcasted it via the video camera. Admins having the ability to free-form stuff is the potential for some much needed busting up of the "Same old routine" that people get into, and can get a lot of fun an hilarious shit goin' down. I'd love it if something could happen with it. Not to FORCE admins to do an event every week, but if they wanna do it or have an idea, then have a day where they can freely adminbus around an do something neat they thought up.

The problem there is that is basically just the "Nurse" at that point. (The Nurse alt title is a regualr ol' MD, but it's ASSUMED that you're handling all the smaller scale stuff, to give MD's an Surgeons time to focus on the hardcore stuff.) The entire point of an intern style position would be a lack of access so that nobody can join to abuse it, and no deny staff positions. Imagine a med bay with nothing but Interns and No ACTUAL MD's or Nurses, because there's no slots left, all being filled up by interns with nobody to teach jack diddly. An intern position would be better suited as an Alt Assistant title or as a seperate thing altogether with only very basic access. An before people say "The HoP exists" it's *not* the HoP's call. The HoP is the guy giving you the title and access, but he ends up having to ask the CMO or whatever head, if it's kosher with them an that they're a trainee. So you have to gamble on TWO heads of staff not being anti-fun just to learn things. The only time a HoP can do it by himself (Without breaking SoP) is if there is no head of staff in question, then it's all on him an a judgement call. A round start alternative would be preferable, especially for Security and Medical, because Sec could always use more good players and Medical could use less "YOUR BRAIN HAS AN INFECTION I WILL AMPUTATE."

In no way shape or form was that intended as aggressive, merely what I saw it as. If you took offense to that then I apologize, that was not the intention. That being said, I feel like I've made my point in my previous posts, so I'm going to discontinue this little debate and chalk it up to differences in opinion, since this is going nowhere. I can agree to that. And I'm sorry if I saw something that wasn't there an assumed you were getting irate. In hindsight, was sorta hypocritical of me to be like "STOP ASSUMIN I AM MAD" an then assuming you were the same, so for that, I am sorry.

First off, 'D kinda appreciate if you cooled your jets a bit. You're gettin' randomly aggressive over this. Long post =/= me flailing on my keyboard in a huff, so you can totes chill out with the "In poor taste" and shit, cuz the moment this stops being a civil debate is the moment I'm just gonna peace out cuz it's *really* not worth it over minor pAI suggestions that in all likelihood are not gonna get coded in anyway. That said, moving on to the topic at hand: It's almost as if I suggested upping the tech/material cost of pAIs if some of these suggestions went through and you totally ignored those points to hammer in this one. To paraphrase "It'd be worth upping their tech/mat cost for the sake of getting some of these improvements." Add in more data and material theory (Foldy flippy forms are clearly advanced matierals if they can also become robots.) and add a Gold/Silver cost. The SEVERAL places you've directly mentioned 'Death should penalize people' is sort of mentioning it. Because that's BASICALLY saying "You lost the game, you should be punished for it with X or Y" and because you dragged that notion into the debate by bringing that subject up. But, I clearly failed in my explanation while trying and failing to make the post at small of a wall as I could and since there's uncertainty as to why it was mentioned, so I'll try to fix where I fucked up: IF you die an cannot be revived, you already HAVE your big penalty. You cannot be revived. Your time as a crewman of the Cyberiad has come to conclusion, you don't get to do crewman things anymore, that IS your penalty. Adding this "These roles shouldn't be able to do anything decent because they're minor because they're just for ghosts to rejoin the game" on top of it, is wholly unnecessary especially when it's not like the argument is to give pAI Station AI level access or power, but basic door access that literally everything on the station gets, including random animals or *CONTRACT TERMINATED CREWMAN* (AKA: Even people that have had the hammer brought down on them ICly by Admins can do this function. Why shouldn't THAT be more/as punishing then 'I am unrobust and died'?). And it's also not BOUT "But they shouldn't leave their master" That literally doesn't even SLIGHTLY factor into it, because a rogue pAI is: 1: Going to do nothing and 2: Prolly get job banned for fucking off into deep space because he got tired of the HoP an is ignoring his directive. This is something everything and EVERYONE can do. All the things forever can do it, so NOT doing it, makes no sense and is inconsistent as all hell. A fuckin' Corgi shouldn't be able to open airlocks, it's a dog that has no idea how to door, and yet it is a functioning mechanic because it is quality of life that makes someone's playtime NOT frustrating as shit an in general let's 'em play the game as long as they're not bein dicks. Does it really *REALLY* Impact the round THAT much and if so please explain why cuz I do NOT understand even SLIGHTLY why it shouldn't happen. (And no "Because they shouldn't leave their master" is not a valid reason, because mindless Dogs also shouldn't be able to open an ID-based airlock system and should stick by their master too, and yet... For the third time, this is still not valid reasoning because it applies to nothing else in the game. Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it more valid then the first time. But if you want a reason then see the above. Because "But then they'll leave." is not a valid reason because that's blatant disregard for your directive "Serve your Master" (Your ONLY ONE too, unless the owner opts to add one), if you fuck off into outer space because you don't like them, then grats on doing the exact same thing as a Drone ignoring their laws and receiving the same punishment. It's Quality of Life that is so low impact that I cannot believe THIS is one of the huge sticking points to all of this, I sort of figured it'd be the 'Crew monitor' suggestion not hallway doors. "Allowing more trouble for antags" If we're gonna pull the 'If you get forgotten you prolly suck' card, then I can pull the "If you get chased down in a hallway by a pAI an that's why you lost, you probably suck as antag." one. Solution: Kill the pAI, they're super fragile 2-3 whacks oughta do it. They're hilariously breakable in mobile form so if it wants to chase you down, you get to fulfill the antag wet dream and crush the little fucker under your heel. The problem is now solved permanently. You mean like how pAI can be unbound/have no master an is thus capable of roaming if set free or the death of their owner? "Ian Shittery" was not the point, you're arguing out semantics and ignoring the context and point. I don't think pAI's should be able to drag items, I don't think they need the ability to haul their master's into medical. The point is and was, if this DIRECTLY COMPARABLE Side role, in the form of a fuckin dog can open an airlock door so that he has quality of life to be able to walk places, then it's not asking for a tremendous power leap to CONSIDER the possibility that it might be okay for a pAI to be able to touch their face to a door too. TL;DR: IF they're going to have a mobile form AT ALL. IT probably should be able to be MOBILE. Else it's better off to kill it altogether because it's pointless. You're MORE Mobile being on their person at all times, hell encouraging pAI to be in mobile form more often is a NERF to them, because now that "Living Death alarm" can be separated from his master and not tattle on your every move.

"Have no responsibility" is not a very harsh law. Enforced, sure, but it's REALLY not a harsh one. And Posibrain has the same laws as all cyborgs, but that's just it. you return to the match as a fuckin CYBORG. That's basically a respawn button given cyborgs are a round-start role you can spawn into. Not to mention as a positronic brain you might not even be Borged, I see plenty of posi-brains be turned into a new flippin Station AI or Piloted Mechs. That's not very "Death is a penalty" unless we start REALLY nitpicking around what "Is or is not a punishment" due to the law restrictions. You're still a walkin, talkin, RP'n robot who has defined jobs an roles. And really, Death shouldn't be a "Penalty", at least not in THIS sense. There's no "I WON SS13!" Because there's nothing to win or lose or to punish, the name of the game is roleplay, even Goonstation and other low RP servers still have roleplay in there to a degree, the objectives of both crew and antags are ther eto push roleplay along, Antags are ther eto spice up the round to make for roleplay beyond "Work Simulator 2556". Having a "Penalty" is that you died and can't be cloned, why do we need more punishment then that? What purpose does it serve to point at people and go "He died, he's terribad, he shouldn't be allowed anymore fun." Setting things on tables happen, people forget to grab things, it happens a lot. Basic all-access door access is NOT asking for the moon, nor is it asking for the ability to wander the station freely. We're talking the ability to wander Hallways and the Dorms. No. They are not different. pAI are just "Minor roles" for dead people to occupy to faff around without responsibility and waste time right? Well that's the SAME ROLE as what respawning as a simple mob is for, to faff around an give dead people/observers something minor to screw with to occupy themselves. Only one of them can "Freely wander the Station" as well as manipulate objects (I have personally seen Ian's make a fuckin yakkity sax with objects to keep them away from antags or deliver shit to security.) Ian may not be able to talk (Without using some weird bugs.) But he can do way more then that. Ian can drag PEOPLE. AWAY From Antags or from dangers. You know how many times I have watched that corgi haul in a dead HoP to medical? The ONLY APPRECIABLE difference, is one has an in-built radio and doesn't need to do glitchy exploits to speak human words.

Wall of Replies, pls be prepared, there is no TL;DR on this train, because the lever broke an I can't fix it send help. Ahem. "There's only a VERY finite initial spawn of pAI and Nerfing the cost of their production is a very small price to pay to make pAI actually interesting." Ain't exactly anything preventing anyone from changing it's production values to be a little pricier or the tecg ti be harder to reach then what it is now. Or both. "You shouldn't be rewarded for being dead". I didn't know SS13 was a "Leaderboard" type of game where it was a competition and we had to punish people for things, so when can I expect the removal of Drones, Xenobiology mobs, golems, holoparasites, Positronic brains and such on? Because those all take ghosts and either you observed at the start to get those or you died. Identical to pAI in every way, some people DO Observe to join as a pAI from round-start. Also please explain to me how being able to open basic access doors that, again, even TERMINATED CREW CAN OPEN and being able to be a flashlight or a scanner is in anyway going to "Fuck the antags" because I don't understand how that's even POSSIBLE, and it sounds kind of like a knee-jerk reaction to "Pls don't buff living death alarms". Vent crawling was literally only brought up once, and frankly I don't think it's needed. Correct. Except pAI in their mobile form, are slower then their master, so they actually CAN'T stay by their master's side, especially when said master walks into the bar, and the hallway airlock closed behind them and you have to stare pitifully as even fucking Ian can open those and you can't. I also preferred the holographic forms, but we're probably not gonna re-acquire thooooooose. --------------- You don't have to. But then it's not much different then killing a guy right next to his friend and being super shocked when his friend is screaming about how you're murdering him. And it's not like EMPs are in terribly short supply among antagonists, I mean the only ones who DON'T get some form of EMP effect are really just Vamps an S-lings. Which is funny because every other "Minor role" in the game, is more involved or interesting then current iteration pAI. Drones get to talk to each other freely, build almost freely as well as do engineering work almost on the grade of an engineering borg itself. Golems can do anything a fuckin human can do more or less and I have personally been a sentient spider born from a traitor xenobiologist an started a spider uprising/invasion. Those are all "Minor Roles" and all "Reward you for being dead." Just because it's a minor role that isn't meant to have sweeping impact on the round, doesn't mean you have to make them gimped as fuck in both utility or quality of life, it just means you're never gonna quite match up to a human crew member (OR silicon one) and that's ... not what anything here is asking. It's asking for minor things like information based modules, scanners an the like or the ability to speak on the master's radio channel or respond to their PDAs. You know. Secretary things, that they cannot currently do because you can't be a secretary as a secretarial/information unit.

There's only a VERY finite initial spawn of pAI and Nerfing the cost of their production is a very small price to pay to make pAI actually interesting. Because presently, spawning as a pAI is less activity then just being an assistant with a station-bounced radio (Which are dime a dozen in the fuck tons of emergency toolboxes all over maintenance or in the several O2 lockers). Especially since nowadays, ghosts have gotten *WAY* Better respawn alternatives. Xenobiology mobs, Holoparasites, Golems have always been there, Positronic brains (Though they're harder to print out now.) The Nanotrasen minebot for miners who slot in the upgrade, yadda yadda yadda. All those compared to a Secretary who cannot be a secretary and that cannot open even basic access doors that even Terminated crew can open. pAI don't need to be Station AI: Pocket Edition. But giving them minor shit like flashlights or makin 'em tiny living encyclopedias as their niche sort is ... really not going to impact a round anymore then they already do. And if the "but lifing darth alurm is 2 op 4 skool" is a pressing concern, is there no way to make their communications instead act like a regular headset instead of a station bounced radio? So if T-comms is cut, pAI can't scream. (Might also enable the ability to insert headset keys into said pAI to enable those channels. Tator pAI able to monitor all comms an coordinate tators via Syndi-comms, pls.)

WALL OF TEXT INBOUND (Avert thine eyes): First off, Cloning doesn't NEED an alternative, because it is not the issue in the triviality of Death. Defibs and Strange Reagent are. You want Death to be more impactful, then you nuke SR and Defibs from orbit, because as long as those exist in their current state, death will never ever be a big deal unless everything can have a random chance to Ash you. (I say this as someone who has mostly played Medical, the amount of times I just Defib people casually for dying in medical is crazy.) Secondly, making it easy to render a body totally and utterly unable to be cloned or revived is a terrible idea. Death is not SUPPOSED to be this massive ordeal in any non-HRP SS13 server, it needs to be a hassle and a dice roll (Cue the 'Is Medbay Competent' Gameshow theme) Not this "fuck you, no game for you." mechanic. Cloning is a hassle for both medical and the clone-ee, especially since there is only one cloning pod, so it's a long slow process if there's a lot of dead guys. Thirdly, Enforcing RP effects is probably not gonna happen. It's done very minimally here, because we're not a High RP server, trying to fit High RP effects into an at-best Medium RP server is going to end in clusterfuck fighting, between people who actually adhere to it an people who don't leading to a mixture of "Dude what the fuck, CMD Bro" and "Medium RP server, it's not enforced man." Fourthly, Cyborgification doesn't need touching at all. Being revived as a Cyborg still counts as a VICTORY for the antagonist in question, if their goal was to murder you, an you got borged, then the antag has his happy little greentext, cuz you're still dead. You're no longer "Bob McSpaceGuy" you're now "Secbot 2124". Making it even harder to get a cyborgification going, is just being unnecessarily harsh on both the player and the roboticist who gets maybe one Cyborgification off in a week. (I have literally only ever had 1 guy ask to be borged, any borg I built was strictly from positrons) TL;DR: This is a very HRP-style idea, for a Low to Medium RP server, and is overhauling the component of reviving that was never the problem to begin with. It's a neat and cool idea. Just not fitting for the style of play Paradise has/gets.

Coning is not the problem. Cloning has never really BEEN the problem, it's the WORST way to come back into a round actually, it takes a decent amount of time to be cloned, your stuff is just lying there in the clone lab for somebody to steal it, frequently uyou pop out with disabilities or Brain damage that necessitate doctors t othen handle those things, if they're competant enough to know about them. and if they Don't, grats on your brain damage. The problem is, Cloning previously was about the only way TO Revive and now it ISN'T. You have a LOT of revivification methodologies at your finger tips and all of them objectrively faster and better then Cloning. Defibrillator an then Cryo, bam, you live again. Is the body too old to Defib? Does it have really low damage or can you get it low enough? Strange reagent and you walk once more. Cloning is a hassle, it's a hassle by design for the clone-ee and risky because you're as vulnerable as a newborn baby in there. The OTHER methods are not. Those are where your problems lie, power creep in the form of multiple forms of reviving people, in much faster and better ways then the originally "Only" form of cloning. (I discount cyborging as reviving, because that crewman is still dead for all antag purposes, they are a new cyborg unit, who they were is deceased.)

Unless you have the ability to use sign language over a radio or suddenly gain the ability to understand what other people are saying outside of sign language. That's not a "Moot point" at all. The disability is still there, but it had a mitigating factor to make it managable. You start with myopia, you get glasses that fix your vision. The disability there is no using mesons an shit, cuz you need your glasses. You start out with a fucked up leg you get a cane, or a wheelchair of both legs are fucked up, letting you move around still, but at a slower pace. The truly pure negative disabilities are Obesity, Muteness and Blindness. (I don't count mechanical hearts/eyes as disabilities, since those are under a different tab, but technically they are too.) And muteness would gain similar fluff use out of Sign Language. Now you could argue "But everyone will take sign language to powergame, so if they are deafened by explosions or what have you they can still talk via sign language. It won't be a fluff thing anymore, but a mechanical advantage." And to that I say, 'This is true' and there's no real way to get around that (at least not that I can think of), short of tying Sign Language to the Deafness disability itself. That said. I still would like to see it. The amount of power it gives you is only as powerful as the amount of people with sign language. And the inability to use radios at all is a HUGE deal, cuz you can't hear the call that Nukies are on station. (Also it's still talking in a language, so you False Mimes can just shoo.)

Xenos are also significantly more then a side-antag and more of a round ending event.

I quite like the idea of this actually, they could do with being a bit more visible TBH, if nobody is diligent enough to check disposals (as is often the case) the swarmers can easily get a massive head start, some sort of loudish sound effect when they deconstruct something maybe? Stealth munching the server rooms should probably be a bit more noticeable. Honestly, their ability to devour the RnD servers is mildly bullshit for a side antag meant to be a pest, because that's more legitimately crippling to an entire department. It should probably just be moved to the list of things they can't eat. THAT SAID Them leaving telltale signs or being loud is something I'm just "Eh" about. I don't think it would break that much if it left signs of their 'handiwork' behind or was a bit louder then typical welding noises.

Every limitation listed here (Except the increased replicate cost) is broken as all get out. Limitation to how many times they replicate, effectively makes them worthless, because after that point, you're a useless hunk of metal, devouring resources other swarmers could be using to replicate, when you can't. Limiting how many swarmers can be on station is... COMPLETELY destroying the entire purpose of the antag. I mean it's even in the name "Swarmer". And the two together, if we assume worst case scenario (And apparently since they're so OP, shouldn't be that unlikely a scenario to come across, right?) In that you have the max amount of swarmers, nobody can kill them, the salt is flowing freely.... only what then? They can no longer replicate, resources they eat are totally wasted so what then. Swarmers already can't devour vital equipment and anything they CAN devour is easily rebuilt and replaced. Hell they can't even eat the circuit boards machines/computers drop, if Science is being too lazy or obstinate to come help rebuild, that's... that's not the Swarmer's fault that's the fault of lazy scientists being too busy jerkin off in RnD to come help out the station. Swarmer vent crawl time is already large enough to easily catch them unless they have barriers up, I've not only seen it, I have had it happen to me. all it takes is a few whacks of a baton to off a swarmer, hell even just one toolbox can put them well within range of dying on the next hit unless they blow resources on repairing themselves. The simple solution is: Don;t ignore Swarmers, weld vents and they are powerless. Without vents, they have little to nothign they can effectively do. The only times people ever cry out "OP!" is during very late night rounds when we are low pop. And as I have been told time and again on other issues "We are not balanced for low pop."

You do realize that security is pretty much the equivalent of a mall cop, correct? Ehhh. Less "Mall Cop" and more like those corporate security firms/Security Guards you see at businesses an shit

that's literally the entire point, making your character more "unique" while not giving anyone an unfair advantage On that note I DO wish character select disabilities were a little less.... curable. Like I have made characters with the mute trait or wheelchair bound chairs and almost immediately people try to give me mutadone or robo legs.

Yeah, we used to use it on Unbound. Polaris MIGHT have it too, iunno. You can spawn with things like berets, hats, jackets, specific jumpsuits or shoes. Items like pAI and a cane or sunglasses and accessories like scarves an stuff. You have like 5 "Points" to spend on items you spawn with, most things costing one point, but things like pAI units costing more like 4-5. And certain loadout items don;t spawn unless you have a specific job. Example being a the Dress version of the Captain's uniform is on the loadout. But you're not gonna have the dress unless you actually SPAWN as the Captain. IF you ARE you get the dress instead of the jumpsuit, etc. So you can't really use it to spawn with shit you're not meant to have.

So sort of like a fusion of Goon's system and Bay's loadout system? (Spawning in with certain clothes or other items like a cane, zippo, usually fluff stuff. )

Ehhhhh. I guess while a harmless enough Idea, iunno. It seems weird to me that a space station owned by a corporation would just throw boxes at people who cannot live in light and go "Here, make it work." NT may not exactly be the most employee-friendly company ever, and in fact can be downright scummy, but I can't help but feel THAT would get them some reputation that they do not publicly want. I mean Tajaran in most lore sets are second class citizens and even then they don't PUBLICLY screw with them. So why would these Shadow People not just use some form of suit like the Plasma's do? The nearest comaprison I can make would be, imagine of Vox/Plasma people instead of having suits an masks an stuff, just had these little boxes full of Nitrogen/Plasma to breathe in. It'd look and be logically kind of out there. That's really where a major stopping point is for me, what justification is there logically for using just.... ordinary boxes as a life saving device that doesn't even enable this "Disabled" crewmen to properly work their environments, over just some kind of specialized suit that keeps them sheltered from Light and enables them to do whatever NT hired them for with greater ease then a box?

Depends, I mean given Diona ultimately grow to be like space station sized, depending on how old your diona char is, they could pretty easily be tall ass mofos ICly

Because, unfortunately, people like to make Security's time as hard and as terrible as possible. The moment someone dies in the brig it turns into a cacophony of "SHITCURITY LYNCH SEC!" with some people outright lying that Sec killed the guy instead of suicide. And if you think that's me exaggerating, it honestly and truly is not, I had personal experience with that when I used to play Warden. I see people punch themselves into crit in their cell and scream the warden or HoS is beating them all the time. It's not just them killing themselves an leaving the round, it's heaping a giant mess onto someone ELSE an giving the Greytide the riot excuse they look for. The problem you outlined has nothing to do with the suicide verb. As necaladun stated earlier, the suicide verb leaves a lovely note telling the observer that it was self-inflicted. However, if someone is willing to greytide based on hearing that security was beating some guy up and not seeing any evidence for it, ahelp them or brig their ass. The problem is no one reads that little note. I have seen it happen both as Sec and a LOT as Medical. To the point where, I as a Geneticist who was giving a few powers to Sec on Captain's orders, saw a mime commit suicide in the brig. I even said over Medical radio, the mime just killed himself and to expect his body. The Brig Physician comes to bring by his corpse to put in the morgue and the Doctors jumped his shit, calling the HoP and the Captain to try and get him fired for killing the mime/getting him killed. I have countless times had to stop surgeons and doctors from trying to defib/Strange Reagent/Clone corpses that are suicide cases. If Suicide verb is gonna be kept in that "THEY FUCKING KILLED THEMSELVES AND CANNOT BE REZZED" message, needs to be made a bold red text, instead of being identical to the other injury notes you get when you examine people. Because ATM no one reads it, especially doctors who really SHOULD read it.

That "I Have no mouth and I must scream" reference is on point.

Because, unfortunately, people like to make Security's time as hard and as terrible as possible. The moment someone dies in the brig it turns into a cacophony of "SHITCURITY LYNCH SEC!" with some people outright lying that Sec killed the guy instead of suicide. And if you think that's me exaggerating, it honestly and truly is not, I had personal experience with that when I used to play Warden. I see people punch themselves into crit in their cell and scream the warden or HoS is beating them all the time. It's not just them killing themselves an leaving the round, it's heaping a giant mess onto someone ELSE an giving the Greytide the riot excuse they look for.

That's totally what it is. I mean who WOULDN'T slit their throat over a vandalism charge.

To my knowledge, most surgical items are Small items. The Surgical drill might be a little larger. Don't quote me on this, I am going almost purely on the fact I have stuffed a Scalpel and such into my pockets before, which can only hold certain sized items.

Maybe like a psychic Chameleon projector-ish effect? As in you use the ability and then click an item to "Scan" it, and then when you use the ability on a tile, it makes the illusion of that object there?