Dinarzad

It won't though. Like I'm not saying that I agree with the changes, at all. But that's just being a little disingenuous about the state of it, we both know that's not an accurate metaphor or equivalence at all, that there ARE systems at play and that doctors ARE doing those systems. They may not be systems we like, an the cloner will definitely be used more now, but to say medbay may as well be a conveyor to an from the cloner is just willfully misrepresenting the issue. Because I guess smaller injuries, surgery for things like broken bones, internal bleeding and limb reatattchment and the entire crit state just don't exist anymore, Paramedics don't exist and what is even that SR thing. Like. Yes. The Cloner will be used more, too much in the eyes of many, it's less realistic, etc. But god damn, y'all act like reviving dead people was your ONLY job and that with this change, all non-dead people will cease to exist, in a perpetuial state of being not quite dead, but also dead, a Schrodinger's Hellscape will overcome us all an doom will fall onto our station as Nar-sie nibbles on our meaty bits. Yes. The system's got some serious problems. But let's stop playing pretend that dead people being revived was the ONLY thing Medical did and that removing defibs suddenly DELETED those other non-dead players. It's exaggeration beyond the point of being worthwhile to the discussion. It adds nothing but noise at this, it just muddies the issue on both sides and makes it actively harder to debate and discuss. The strong emotional response has been noted, but now we need more then an emotional response, now we need more depth and criticism to be had about it.

I agree. That's why my response on the neuro kits was "If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary." If Medical vendors already have mannitol pills in them, I am unsure why those kits are necessary.

https://i.imgur.com/KnNrnzL.png The above is the image Fox put up on the PR in question of his medivend changes. I felt it was worth copying over here for people that may not check the git themselves all that much, and because a few things I wanna note about the tweaks made, an it's easier to have al ink here for reference then to ask people to go to the PR. Healing/Burn patches: Nice to have, though with the sleepers giving saline-glucose and the medical vendor giving saline-glucose, unsure how needed it is. But still nice. *thumbs up Diphenhydramine Bottle: Nice to have but not wholly sure how necessary it is, I personally don't see Histamine come up that much, but I know Fox mentioned that some chemicals were gonna be a lot more scary in the new system, like Sarin. So perhaps Histamine is one of those, but just putting it out there I don't run into it much. Salicylic Acid Bottle: Nice to have. Potassium Iodide Bottle: Not sure Radiation is a common enough occurance to need to be default in the medi-vend, but it's a brain dead chem recipe as it is an a chemist can make one in a couple seconds, so I suppose just having it by default won't change much. Saline-Glucose bottle: Not sure if needed, given sleepers produce the stuff. Though, I guess since it can be used to treat the first stages of shock, having a few bottles to carry around won't be remiss. Not sure if we need 5 though, 3 per medi-vend should be plenty given we have a LOT of medivends. Atropine Bottle: Good to have in case there's no chem, such as low-pop rounds. Oculine Bottle: Same as Atropine, good to have in case a total lack of chemistry, given Sleepers no longer produce the stuff. Small enough in quantity you could run out though, which will still give Chem incentive to make some, just nothing they need to rush out. Calomel Pill: Given Fox's claim that chems can be a lot scarier in this new system, probably worth having. Though I for see a lot of toxin deaths the first few weeks after being merged (Calomel will rapidly fuck your day if over 20 HP) Salbutomal pills: Not sure if needed because of sleepers, could just as easily put in some oxy-dep first aid kids into medical storage. Might lighten the load on them edivend, as the list of things it has is now pretty big. Mannitol Pills: Probably necessary given Brain damage during critical condition is now a thing and is what dictates death. Mutadone pills: I don't think this is necessary to have on hand in the medical vendor, unless it plays a new role in the system that I have overlooked somewhere. Now to address some of the other changes: If the Medivends have mannitol, I'm not sure why Neuro-kits would be necessary. No real opinion on this. Having more use to Fix-O-Vein is nice, and it's something you can't run out of (I don't think it took a use of a trauma kit to heal an organ though.) Not really any major medical changes here though, just swapping one tool for another. Could make ghetto surgery harder, as you could Trauma Kits here an there in maint. This is a little more where I have problems. Plasmemes have precious little going for them as it is (Aside a dope as fuck style.) and slimes having no organs and no breathing is a big deal. They were originally supposed to not have bones either, an that's already been compromised on, I'd really prefer not pulling back even more on that. Their blood is water, not because they have 'blood' like a circulatory system, but because they're made of slime, a gelatinous liquid substance. The 'skin' is just like a membrane holding the stuff inside. (And also for mechanical reasons.) A grander scale rework of Diona is probably in the cards, yes, but until then, removing their no breathe ability I'm sketchy on, not without also pulling back on how much slowdown they suffer at least. That seems like sometihng that should happen WITH a diona rework, and not in this particular system overhaul, since there's grander balance concerns to be had. Ultiamtely though, this stumbling point here is probably why this crit system is going to have a lot of issues. It's a goon-based system, and on Goon humans are the only species you can reliably play as. This system has a lot of depth, could be very nice IF we were an all-human kind of server, but we're not. And the only solutions are to either snowflake the other species real hard to make it work/ignore the system; to dramatically alter those species just to fit this system in, and like Fox said, conjure up compensating buffs/changes, which isn't always easy; or to leave both of them alone.

Validhunting is a problem with Blues, but I don't think that's a reason to deny the featurei n question. However, the validhunt problem is real, but the thing is, in my mind anyway, the Blueshield is a 30 karma role. Magistrate is 45 Karma, and it costs that much because it is a "Trusted" role. It's something you don't just give to randos because they'll abuse it, and it is held to a higher standard then other jobs, it's easy to get a ding dong bannu out of Magistrate if you abuse it's authority. But it's authority/power you are given out of trust since you got enough karma for it, you demonstrated you understand how Paradise works a little bit, the dos and don'ts. Blueshield, IMO, should be similar. They can be trusted with things like Krav Maga or what have you, because it's a 30 karma role, you're being given a measure of trust that you won't abuse it. And if you do, then the job-bans will come swift and hard, harder then other jobs. A blue has no reason to not be at the bridge or at a Head of Staff's side, if you are wandering maint on your own, and are not actively trying to find the captain's corpse to recover and take to medical, then you abused that trust you were given, full stop, and it can and should be rescinded via job ban.

I'm not opposed to the idea. It'd be kinda strong, might upend balance a little bit, but I mean... It's also fuckin cool, an that's what matters most, so.

Tell you what. Let's do a test. Do 1 day where Defibs/SR isn't available, an then you tell me how super duper fast cloning is and how it has no problems what so ever. Especially when it gets bombed. You also did nothing to even slightly address any point my post brought up whatsoever, in favor of a massive passive-aggressive salt pit, which is super helpful and absolutely benefits a discussion and will in no way sabotage feedback at all and is SUPER professional coming from an administrator. But yeah. You're right. Everyone else is the problem. TG, Bay, Goon, every other major codebase? Fools. Foolish fools who are foolishly believing their own foolishness as they seem to all agree a mechanic works across High, Medium and Low RP spectrums. They're all just to dumb to see the way, clearly, it could in no way be the minority opinion is wrong. Y'all are gonna do what you want anyway, feedback or otherwise, an apparently get you meme'd on if you disagree, so just like... do whatever, man. I'm done puttin' in effort, lemme know when you're done ruining the medical department though.

I'm going to echo what I said before in response to the talks about Cloning. Cloning is not the issue, has never been the issue and will continue to not be the issue. cloning exists on TG, on Bay and Goon, it exists in almost every single codebase out there, but you think, for some reason, it's magically a problem on this one single codebase. Cloning has clear and obvious downsides. That being, it is easily overwhelmed and tampered with. It works on one person at a time, when it was the only method of revival it very easily formed a queue. The problem is that over the years we've added more and more alternatives to cloning, so those downsides are now null. You can Defib most people, clone them when that fails or if it's too inconvenient and SR things that can't be cloned at all, or just if you want a challenge mode, I guess. The downsides of cloning were predicated on it being the primary source of revival, the more alternative methods of unkilling someone you make, the more you make cloning into a tool that can be used selectively when convenient, which is WHY so many doctors take the 'just clone them' mindset these days. Because these days it's almost always not in use so it's a massive time saver. When you had conga lines of corpses in waiting, it was a lot more imperative to keep someone from dying at all, lest they be potentially dead for several minutes before their turn came up. Times have changed. Something has to change to match it. Either Cloning needs a TOTAL overhaul, a complete remake, which in a personal opinion would be absolutely silly, given NO OTHER MAJOR CODEBASE agrees with that idea. (That sorta tells me this is a personal problem and not a problem with the mechanic as it remains, to this day, a baseline feature in all the major codebases. If Goon, TG and Bay can all agree on something, despite how disparate they all are, that carries some major weight.) OR. The other forms of revival need to be looked at, mostly the defib units. SR could do with a recipe tweak, but it's niche in being primarily targeted at Vox/Slimes is fine pretty much as is. Defib units should not be able to revive a person who died ages ago, that's not how they work. They jump start a heart that has stopped within a very short time frame, they do not magically make a long cold body start living again. The body is already dead, the brain has died from lack of oxygen. No amount of electrical impulses will change that the brain has suffocated. Cloning might be easy if you don't attempt anything like Hypercloning, but it's straight forward and has clear downsides. A new doctor can pick up the role and, if nothing else, understand cloning. That's not a bad thing, not everyone in medical is gonna be a 16 year Space 'Nam veteran. The basics of the department should probably be relatively easy to grasp in short order. You can whack at it if you really, really want to, but I am telling you now, the more tedious and obnoxious you make death on the doctors themselves, the more you're gonna see people give up half way through when they get tired of handling it, especially in crisis situations where people are dying constantly. It's gonna get real fun real fast having to deal with hyper lethal war ops or blobs when you're gonna be dead for the next 5 minutes, along with a hefty chunk of crew/the entire sec team, as you're rebuilt like the bionic man, just so you can do it again. As for the PR feedback itself: I don't think this fits Paradise. Goon crit is a system that is predicated on everyone being human, because on goon there's no alien races like we have and are known for. The fact we have to make snowflake exceptions to it so that it won't utterly break the system is a telling point of that. I feel that we need to pick ONE system overhaul an focus on that. We can't do both an SR/Revivability overhaul and a crit overhaul at the same time, that's too many major systems changes at once. If one of these gets merged, the other definitely shouldn't until we see how things shake up.

I might ask, how is that a bad thing? As it stand right now, Mining frequently hits a poitn where they can have the ORM so impossibly stocked for materials that at around the 1 hour mark, they can fuck about on station an never need do their job ever again, barring some massive catastrophe. ((I myself have hit a point where we had over 500 of every single mineral, several thousand metal, glass and plasma and well over a hundred diamonds.)) If more resources get used by more departments then just Science then that's a GOOD thing. It means mining actually has a job and is a boon to every department beyond just Science. Medical can pull out gold/silver for possible viruses, Engineering can reliably print out sheets of plasteel, etc. And it means Science doesn't get to loot the ORM an fuck off with your ENTIRE haul moments after depositing, so people stop shrieking at miners to get them things because Science stole it all for themselves when they only needed maybe half of it. Similarly, I've seen science man the RnD console, be perfectly capable of hearing me, an simply ignore me or tell me to fuck off. Even as a miner asking for mining upgrades so I can get them more ore. With Departmental lathes, that possibility is entirely removed. You need something? go to the lathe for your department that is restricted to blueprints you need (The Cargo lathe can't make AEGs for example) and just make it. You want machine upgrades, Science still has to do that, but now at least, medical could print additional huds or their own surgical tool upgrades,etc. The pros to the Ore silo and Departmental Protolathes VASTLY outweigh the cons.

NGL this is one of my favorite features tg has. It makes life so goddamn convenient for everyone, Science isn't constant having to print shit out for people, more time for them to be massive nerds and do insane frankenstein shit. The only thing you really have left to do is go upgrade people's machines an then you're good to fuck off unless something specific comes up. Though it'd likely need the Ore Silo implemented alongside it to properly function.

Pretty sure it used to work on slimes, I'm not too sure why it doesn't. Half the point of sentience potion is to give exotic creatures over to ghosts to control, with restrictions to keep them from going nuts (Having to obey the one who gave you sentience)

IPC currently are one of, if not the, most unique of the karma races. They have the most day to day differences in their mechanics, using APCs/Cyborg rechargers for 'food', the utterly different way they have to heal themselves, feeling no pain, no breathing, such on an such forth. This is mostly what draws people to them, the very different playing experience and RP that they provide over being human or most the other organic races. To give other lesser played races a similar treatment is something I absolutely whole-heartedly agree, on, the more of those kinds of differences we can introduce to races the better I'd feel. I'd LOVE have weird shit with slime people that emphasizes they ARE made of sentient goo, or to emphasize the insect nature of the Kidan, use of pheromones or something. Not even necessarily BUFFS, just weird unique interactions. You'd be surprised how much more I wanted to play Kidan when they got the click-clack sound emotes. IPCs suffer horrible downsides from EMOPs and yet tons of people still play them because of those unique interactions and systems. Kidan, as an example, however, don't really have much of interest to make up for their big bug eyes. Yeah they have the armor, but that's very passive, there's little there that makes them FEEL different, you instead just feel like a human who can't wear goggles. That's the problem, as designing systems like that for so many species is going to be hard, but I think it's the best thing. People are a lot more willing to deal with even intense negatives, so long as the final result is different and provides a unique perspective. Personal opinion would be to, either among staff members or the community as a whole, open threads for the current race being looked at and put forth ideas that would make sense for the creature, ignore balance and work backwards from there. Like Grey having telekinesis. Makes sense. As ideas pile up, so there's a pool to work from, then administration can sort out via internal discussion of "I mean this makes sense and WOULD be cool, but that's broken af" Because ultimately, at the end of the day, this has been a very talked about subject for a long time, and the end call is made with the people coding those changes and the people approving them.

I wanna put this out there right now, that if this is the direction Paradise goes, I will be the first one out the door. To clarify, I'm not saying this as some kind of threat to prevent admins from going that direction, I'm an on again, off again player, me leaving is gonna cause no problems. But I AM saying is so that staff members know that it very much is an extreme position to some. The entire appeal to paradise from my side as well as others, is that the various alien races, are actually alien in some regard. They don't play identically to a human, because that's dumb. There's no reason a robot should be identical to a human, nor why a living space bird cyborg should be identical to a bipedal cat, and so on. That is, to me, the main draw. It's what helps make things unique and while it does cause balance issues, also helps encourage immersion because you're not just acting like "Oh*beep boo;* no, the EMP is *beep boop* hurting me!" You are actually, as a player, kind of scared of EMPs because they'll ACTUALLY destroy your hopes and dreams as an IPC/Cyborg/etc. So I put this out there here and now, you'll lose players if you take that route. If you still feel that's the best path and this is what staff/community agree is best for the server, hey, I can respect that, you gotta do what you think is the right move, and I sure hell don't know what is anymore then anyone else does. But you should be prepared to alienate a few people in the act.

Mmm. Instead of just gathering money, what if the objective were to empty the station's account? It's a harder feat to accomplish then just getting money, and fits the syndicate narrative of corporation espionage/sabotage by going for NT's pocketbook.

Target sign isn't a problem, when it's a target sign for someone else, now is it? All you need is for someone to NOT know who you REALLY are, you don't give a good God damn if they think you're Jim-Bob the Maintenance Hobo who was fired for being a dick to half the crew. Cargo turns on the trash grinder AT ALL, maybe once every three rounds? more then half the time I wander in there, it's not even fucked with, you'd be absolutely stupefied the amount of high-grade stuff I pull out of disposals. If a Traitor wants it, great. That's not the subject of this discussion, the subject of the discussion is an ID Disposal tool, for the Head of Staff whose ENTIRE JOB revolves around properly handing out, upgrading, downgrading and disposing of Identification Cards. It's sort of the HoP's job to do this, and preferably without causing casual security breaches by dumping ID tags that can still be used to fuck with Security, into public trash bins. You said there was no reason not to disposal them, and I simply provided a reason why putting them into a public area, even Terminated, is not something a HoP should be doing, to say nothing of the RP reasons like facilitating identity theft an shit that could be sued for. Imagine if an IRL company or bank just threw away old ID tags into the dumpster outside that anyone had access to. Are they invalid? Sure. Do the Security guards know that casually at a glance? Probably not. Could they be used to cause problems? You bet. Paper shredders and shit exist for a reason in offices that handle people's identification. (And before anyone mentions Sec HUDs, Terminated IDs do not have an icon of their own, they simply show up as an unrecognized ID, same as if someone had a custom title. Something not visible at a glance an would involve browsing through the manifest to bring it up first.) So there you go. It's not only adding to RP because it makes sense in-universe, it's no worse then disposaling it as we just established and it's a quality of life bump for the HoP. Small perks in it;s favor, with nothing really against it.

According to SoP it's technically murder to do so without a signed form. However, if this was genuinely accidental, and the roboticist in question was willing to put the brain back into the body and see it off to cloning, I feel a sentence of perma or exile would be ludicrously over-kill. Demotion could be appropriate and probably the most likely outcome. People make mistakes. Fucking someone over for an hour and a half for a mistake they were very much willing to fix, seems like it'd be ... a little much. People seem to forget you can "De-borg" someone, and make them fleshy again. And if nobody is willing to cut someone slack for an honest mistake that they're willing to fix, then you really aren't giving them a reason to cooperate in any regard.

Not entirely, as they can still be used to hide one's identity. While the ID itself has no access, the fact the ID has a name on it, means someone can use it to disguise themselves. And someone who wants a disguise is the kind of person who won't care if the ID is terminated, they either have the tools to break in to places or have something like an e-mag. In general, putting IDs anywhere public is asking for trouble, terminated or not.

Being emagged by itself is not terrible. Being told "Welp gg no re you have 5 minutes to live then a 10 minute wait period, no matter what you do" is a problem. While some may not seek out being converted, it's not like there are players who would despise the sudden freedom to be an antag. There is actually a middle ground that exists between "Run at people and ask to be made antag" and "I never want to be converted ever." Personally, I don't like being emagged, don't like being antag period, but that doesn't mean I suddenly like what was done, because I'm thinking beyond my own personal feelings on the matter. The problem is, right now an emagged drone serves to be fun for no one. It;s not fun for the traitor, it;s not fun for the drone player, even someone who might be able to get into the "I am an evil sabotage bot" role and have fun with it, can't, because they have a whole 5 minutes to live. It is a change that benefits no one, harms a majority of players in multiple playstyles and does nothing to impair the one type of rule-breaking player that it was intended to stop.

Just to put this out there, since most people didn;t read that PR in question by all accounts... My original argument (And still my current stance) is that if drones are going to be nerfed this hard and it;s the ONLY state that current staff will allow Emagged drones to be in, then yes I'd rather have them removed utterly. Better to remove them, then leave them as this broken, mess that is more of an active impediment and misery that they are in now. This was, is and will continue to be, my stance. Either tune it back, or just remove the option altogether, better that then to unintentionally fuck with people's heads.

Because there's a big difference between removing a suicide pill, an item only designed to kill you to avoid capture, a pill that is very clearly labeled (It even has a skull an crossbones on it now). It is working as it is intended, it is SUPPOSED to kill you so that you won't be captured, or you can feed it to someone else if you so choose. And a device that has all the appearances of being a helpful tool for your agenda, that not only does nothing, but is an active detriment. It's the difference of me selling you something, the first one is a product I tell you flat out "This bottle is full of poison, so be careful with it." The next one is me telling you, it's a bottle of shampoo that will make your hair fabulous, and then it turns out to be Nair. You don't see where that just might be a little bit of an issue?

Do you mean like the way I said it was a painful experience to play as, said that it did nothing to stop the actual problem but punished the people playing regularly, that it turned it into a noob trap for new antags to screw themselves over with? That the restrictions put on were horrifying? You mean THAT discussion of what was changed and how it made the server a worse place? Because I am pretty sure I did all that. So. No, I'm pretty sure you're looking for a reason to shut down my argument without ever having to address it. Moving goalposts isn't necessary here. Your comparison is flawed. You liken it to driving to a T intersection where you can only pick the pre-existing paths, but that's not what happens when a PR is made, is it? A PR is about CHANGING something, you are adding, removing or tweaking something. To work off your analogy, it is more similar to BUILDING that road, or in this case going back to a road already built and discussing with people how it should be changed. So again this binary logic does not work and I am still not sure where and how you are getting there. This was not a paid commission of code, this was not a set in stone truth of the universe, it was a PR providing a smorgasbord of options to do a thing, in this case to nerf Emagged maintenance drones. At no point, is someone obligated to push their PR EXACTLY as initially submitted, it can be changed. If you don't believe me, you can go read through older closed PRs and see how many of them were changed and tweaked from their initial submissions. So no, at no point did ALL OF THOSE things need to happen at the same time. And while you might not like this line of debate, you might deem it "of no substance" and irrelevant. It is actually, really really important we acknowledge this flaw, and acknowledge why it was bad, so that going forward we can, perhaps, not repeat the mistakes of the past. Something something not knowing history and being doomed to repeat it? Because this PR has already come and gone, it's a done deal. The least we can do is learn why it was a shit storm, so that we avoid future shit storms of that nature, going forward. And in the process we all learn the problems that shit storm has caused, but since you seem to think I didn't address this already, I'll indulge you with playing the broken record and repeating myself. The changes harm the server, because it's no good to the player base. It punishes the drone player for doing nothing wrong. It seeks to prevent people from intentionally being converted, and to make the drone far far less impactful when it IS emagged. In the former, it doesn't do a single thing. Someone who will intentionally be converted, will still do that, for a chance at a 5 minute murder/antag spree, no fuss, no muss. The latter was done so intensely that it has been left in a worthless/nigh worthless state. 5 minutes is not enough time to coordinate a plan from the traitor who emagged you, it is barely enough time to travel the station and begin your sabotage, it is all but impossible to do this quietly as you are painted with a giant "I AM EVIL" sign, and it is a clear giveaway that someone has an emag and is fucking with synths. So, stealthy sabotage bot is not quite in the cards, but their combat ability was also tanked as well on top. You cannot sneak. You cannot survive an attack. So what GOOD are you? This all, in addition. puts people on high alert REAL fast, so it actively strips some of your element of surprise away. It is a Noob Trap. Looks good on paper, but in actuality is inefficent and terrible, serving only to make people more guarded then if you had just left the Drone alone and just emagged into some location to do the sabotage manually. Drones may or may not have needed A nerf, but they did not need ALL the nerfs. TL;DR: It doesn't punish the people it is specifically trying to punish, instead it punishes the average joe who played the way they are supposed to. There is, after all, no way to know someone is holding an emag until he is emagging you, and running away is not an option, given you are slower and vent crawling takes time. In addition to punishing players with a shitty experience it punishes the traitor for doing it, by instead screwing him over, in the IDEAL case of the drone listening to his master, you get some minor sabotage at best, and your job made harder. In the case of someone just fucking off into the blue, you get nothing, and your job made harder.

... What? What.... does this even mean? You realize the PR was to apply a general nerf to emagged drones, right? Like thE PR was literally called a "Menu of Drone Nerfs", like a menu to pick from. As in... it wasn't to specifically do any one thing. It's not a binary state of "Everything" or "Nothing". It is... it is entirely possible to do ONE thing and not the other thens based on feedback given from other people looking at your PR. You can order just ONE item from a menu, you don;t need to order the entire thing. It's not like adding a feature, where you either add it or do not add it. This is a balance change. There's a LOT of numbers to tweak. You could add the 5 minute timer in isolation, or do one of the other nerfs first an then see how that effects balance before proceeding further with further changes if it proves necessary. A Suggestion can be options. They are suggested alternatives to what is being proposed in the present state. This entire suggestions sub-forum is to suggest options and ideas for code-savvy people to jump if they so choose. I... I don't understand where this binary thinking of "You either leave it alone or do five different changes in one PR" thinking is coming from, man, I need help here.

It was always an option, there were a ton of suggestions when that PR was active and relevant. Most of those suggestions were not taken and the one that WAS taken, the 5 minute lifetime, ignored the critical second half of that suggestion, that the 5 minute duration would be enacted to the exclusion of the other nerfs. Instead it was rolled into the other existing ones, and followed up with a PR that made E-magged drones very very obvious, by giving them red eyes. So, another nerf on top of already game-changing nerfs before they had even settled. (Red-eye PR may actually have preceded the nerf PR, I cannot recall which came first.) Going back in time to change it is not an option. Acknowledging it was handled horribly during the affair so that it can be avoided going forward, is, however, very much an option. The key problem here is how many nerfs were made, massive balance changes, done in so short an order with little to no time for consideration or seeing what was necessary. It would not have killed people to take it slow, nor would it kill them going forward. Baby steps are better then yanking out 4 things at one time, because then if things go south, you have no idea which one of those things was the problem and which one was the vital component that made it all work. To draw a parallel, Fox recently added the Gloves of the North Star, letting them work with Hulk. He did this because he was already working on refactoring our Hulk code to be generally better all around, and when that refactor was done, the gloves would no longer work with Hulk. The consequence: This meant for a while Hulk + North Star was broken. You could kill people from 100 to dead in sub 3 seconds. It was timed. This was objectively broken more then Emagged drones ever could be. But it was a process that had time taken on it, because the end result was healthier for the game. What happened here was instead of each nerf being it's own PR, or each step taken bit by bit to get things done properly, overtime. Instead of asking people to live with it a little bit (They'd been just fine with it up to then, it wouldn't kill them to take it at a slower, deliberate pace), it was all lumped into one PR and jammed out of the gate as fast as possible, to the dismissal of everyone that was arguing it was going too far. This is the core problem. Not that it was nerfed, that it was nerfed too much and done so faster then any other PR, most other PR's get chided and finger wagged at for trying to jam through multiple major changes with that kind of speed, this one should have been no different but for some reason was.

You're also comparing TG style drones to our more Bay-style drones, those are RADICALLY different systems. for one, Drone shells had to be built by crew, and secondly TG style drones DID NOT have a "Drone management console" like our more Bay-style does. They were, essentially, spiderbots with hands. Anyone who has ever made a spider-bot can tell you all the ways that can fucking go wrong. TG-style drones also had no inbuilt tools at all, they had storage, and everything else they had they had to go pick up around the station, which is also WAY easier to "Interfere" with, when you are looting engineering/science of it's resources. This is a comparison of apples to oranges. Just because they share the name "Drone" and had the same goal, the functions they took to get there were wildly different. And, as has been pointed out a lot over the years, we're not TG. We have a very different player base with a very different mentality, with a very different stance taken from administrators. These things do not compare beyond a superficial manner of comparison. So, yes. I decry the removal of game systems when the opportunity to improve them and work them into a more healthy state with minimal effort was right there, and I wasn't the only one decrying it. The temptation to do 'bad things' is all over SS13 as a base game, let alone in Paradise's serverbase. If we're going to start coding things out because "People might be tempted" then you better gear up for a whole lot of coding because boy-howdy there's a LOT of systems in this game that give you the chance to be an asshole that kinda just works on the honor system that people won't abuse it, or face the pain train of a banhammer. But you don't go around doing that because that is usually an objectively terrible idea that NEVER works out for the better. You cannot empirically prove a single thing, because the very nature of what you are saying is subjective. In your own argument, and in that PR it says as much that what was "Interfering" to one admin, was kosher with another, that's very damned definition of 'Subjective' so don't try and make it out like your opinion is an objective fact, because it is just that. It is not some scientifically proven fact, don't pretend otherwise. The 'Observation' you're trying to pass off as evidence isn't really applicable when the huge variation of settings exists.

I've gotten Golem slimes done in sub-30 minutes, you go from grey to metal, to gold to admantine, each slime takes 2 monkeys, 1 to have it hit adult and 1 to split. If luck is on your side, you have adamantine slimes before you even need a single monkey cube refill, just using starter equipment. Both boils down to a waiting game and random chance, golems can take longer if luck isn;t on your side, Drones might never appear, both of them involve a bare minimum of effort put in by the antagonist. To say they're leagues apart is just completely ridiculous. It's pretty easy to make ANYTHING sound silly when you play the spin game.

Xeno-bio comes down to "How lucky are you?" when it comes to getting the color of slimes you want. That's not "Work" that's RNGsus, that's rolling dice to see how fast you get adamantine slimes. And since most xeno-biologists make Adamantine slimes fairly regularly, monitoring xenobiology does absolutely nothing to counter anything. That's like seeing and stopping an engineer form doing the solars because he COULD be trying to overload the power system. All you do is pop the golem rune in maintenance or in the cult lair instead of in the camera filled lab and congrats, free cultists. And 1 adamantine slime can easily pop out 9 cores, when Science does upgrades to the machines as they almost always do, again with no work on the part of that cultist. That's about as much work as buying an Emag and rolling the dice that a drone joins into the game and that you happen to run into it early on enough to be a help. And emagging a drone makes it VERY obvious something is amiss, given it gives drones literally evil red eyes, so it also, more often then not, gives up a portion of your element of surprise. If all you're looking for was "Counterplay" then these nerfs do absolutely nothing to achieve the goal you're laying out. It does nothing to prevent how "easy" it is to do, it just makes the act of doing it at all a noob trap to the antag, and a giant pain in the ass for the drone player. All you need for counterplay is to put emagged drones on the drone console, same as an emagged cyborg, so that if it becomes clear it is emagged, you remotely blow it. THAT is counterplay. It also subtly encourages certain playre behaviours without being an active misery, because it encourages "Sabotage bot" playstyles, which was, according to the PR, the goal if the entire thing. A stealthy saboteur is less likely to be caught and blown, a murder-bot is going to get got reeeeeeeeal fast. What we got was a sledgehammer to the entire concept because "I personally don't like it so it should go away". And THAT is faulty design work when far better or less invasive alternatives were presented, and not even my own suggests, LOTS of people weighed in with solutiosn that were far more palatable then this.