Dinarzad

1: They regenerate limbs at TREMENDOUS cost to time and nutrition investment, and as far as I know, you can't really move or take action during that time or it's all for naught. 2: They have no organs to take damage, but they still have a 'brain' which takes A metric ton more brain damage then usual. 3: Water as blood is a double-edged sword, because you can slip on your own blood as easily as someone can slip on yours, as for it being "Unlimited" medical has a ton of blood bags and you can order more at cargo. In addition, because slimes don't leave "Blood" behind, there's not really anything for a detective to scan or anyone to notice if you were beaten to death somewhere and then moved. No blood trail and water dries up. This is in ADDITION to being unable to be cloned as well as taking far more cold damage. Slimes are not better then Vox. Vox meanwhile: Are immune to atmospherics, due to having their own brand of internals. They also catch a case of the deads if those masks are removed, but this process can take a looooooooong time. Can prance through space with few to no issues, without a spacesuit and due to roundstart and constant internals, means you can always run into the void where few people can follow you. Vox have fragile bird bones and their bones break easier then humans, taking in general 5% more brute damage. If this is the thing that is pushign them ;over the edge' I remind you Grey take *25%* more brute damage and their only perk is they can do brain talk. Vox don't need buffs in any aspect. Vox have plenty going for them and a pair of giant downsides against them in exchange for them.

I give it a Dank/10 But in a more feedback-y serious comment, there's not much of anything I can think of to change or add so far, it all looks pretty fuckin top-tier to me, and with any luck the review will go smoothly an it'll be sooner rather then later that we can get it in a playable state. Cuz I am hype for having a roomier station again.

Pretty sure they mean a cosmetic-only version of them. Which still is rife with problems and makes no sense, but worth clarifying.

Probably because they get hauled into the chapel for Vamp testing anyway, so they just use the incinerator while there. Why sec takes them all the way from brig to the chapel though, no idea.

It wasn't really intended to direct the conversation, which is why I didn't end my post on that note, it was intended to put into perspective how silly it is to try and assume someone's state of mind because they selectively emphasis certain words or use a crass vocabulary.

I didn't know using the shift key for sub-five seconds to stress words or sentences or having a crass vocabulary gave you foresight into my mindset. Holy shit that's cool, are you an X-man? I mean you're also totally fuckin' wrong, but you've got mind reader powers so you got that goin'. Then again I did just say the word "Fuck" so I'm probably about to have a aneurysm from pure rage and not even know it yet. Which is why I refer you to 'rule-lawyer' and 'asinine' comments. Because if you deem just dragging a slab of mental indoors during a repair to be interacting, then you have to also consider doing the repairs in the first place, to be interacting, or cleaning up messes to be interacting. Because if dragging an object into an unoccupied room is "Interacting" then how is repairing a hull breach or doing anything at all, not fucking interacting? It changes the entire course of a events, if an antag bombed it, you're undoing their work. If you clean anything, you're doing the janitor's job for them, thus are interacting with/affecting things, interacting with them the same amount you did that engineer/crewman for dragging a slate of plasteel from space into an empty room to drop. Or the same amount as the crew who can now enter that room that is no longer venting into space. You did absolutely nothing to them, with them or around them. But THAT somehow, is NOT interaction. And yet, putting a pre-existing hunk of metal into place before leaving, is somehow just the most direct action there ever was, like I may as well be asking for drones to speak and have hands. These ideas do not and CANNOT Co-exist. You cannot say one thing and then say the other, the logic does NOT go both ways. If something THAT indirect is "Interaction" then those other things, by that same exact standard are ALSO "Interaction". So yes. That is "Rule lawyering" the drones laws, by reading them in the absolute worst and most frustratingly literal sense that can be possibly take, to a fun-murdering degree. Because if THAT precedent is true, then almost every single thing a drone does is interaction. Which it -is-. Because they are PLAYERS who have a want and a right to do stuff. Which is why there is a common sense limit on these things you're totally disregarding for a sheer, complete literal interpretation that does not benefit anyone. Side note: Since some people are apparently of the mindset I am flailing at my keyboard foaming in rage, I will clarify. Long posts =/= unfathomable rage. Posting in this meidum has the benefit that someone can take all the time in the world piecing together a response, unlike an instant messanger, forums don;t typically go anywhere fast. Which I use to the fullest. If that is somehow upsetting, I'm sorry but you're gonna have to live with that. I also make profuse use of words like "Fuck" and "Hell" and "Cock". That again, doesn't mean I'm angry. I just am/have a crass vocabulary. If both of these things together cause you to believe that I am a foaming at the mouth zealot who can only speaks in "AAUUUGHUGH" 's, that is entirely incorrect but I can't stop you from thinking it and I'll just have to live with that.

Do you make it a personal habit of intentional misconstruing what people say? Because for the last several posts, I have SPECIFICALLY stated "Bringing them inside for engineers to later pick up whenever they get there" Not bringing directly to them, not bringing them into engineering, nor even just outside of the bloody department. Just into the station proper and not floating in the god damned void. I'm not sure how that can be stated clearer then it already has been. Damn good thing that was literally never said then, isn't it? 1: lolwhat Cabal? Citation very much needed, because I neither implied a cabal, nor a grand conspiracy theory, like, what are you talking about here, other then trying to discredit my argument via making me look like a loon, of course. 2: A toxic mindset in the community is what I said was rampaging not people. Please actually read the posts you're responding to, if you're going to, because it does neither of us any favors if you refuse to do that. And yes, it very much IS present at the moment. It's one of a few reasons I've distanced myself from the server lately in addition to a mild burnout, but because trying to do anything yields a torrent of shitlers and people giving a collective whine because they're don't always get their way. The sodium levels are lethal around here lately. You're actually correct, it wasn't rules lawyering, it's now become much more apparent you've -completely- misunderstood or entirely failed to actually read what was posted and assumed from there. Because if you'll go back and actually read through my posts, I have never made a single mention of Drones being allowed to hand-feed resources to any crew member, simply extracting them from space to be brought indoors where it can later be taken, by whomever will take them, ideally Engineers. Again. Never at any point where Drones implied to be given full crew power/capability and Borgs were not even mentioned. All that has been requested, is the ability to move certain materials. Not a blanket ability to drag everything like a normal crewmember. But if we're going to make judgments based on "But people might not use it benevolently" we better start axing HUGE chunks of the codebase, because hoo boy, there's a LOT of stuff in the codebase that are rarely, if ever used for anything good. If a Drone wanted to be a shitter, he has far more effective means then 'lol i taek ur glas' and if he's actively taking from people, then he's breaching laws and thus is going to be A-helped. It's not some new burden on administration, like a whole new feature or avenue of potential grief, because if a drone is aiming to cause shit, he can always waste materials, but using metal to just craft a ton of useless junk in maintenance, move to EVA or Engineering and start slurping up metal/glass to repeat. Please, assume my mental state more. And you have yet to provide evidence for this "Contention" of drones existing in the first place, even after it being requested. So far, the *only* discussion of it I have been able to find is the contention of Drones being able to be E-MAGGED, *NOT* the Drones themselves. So unless you can cite your source of this and let other people weigh in on their opinions, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Could you please cite me where that conversation is taking place? Because so far, I have only seen discussion about removing E-MAGGED Drones, or the ability to e-mag them, not Drones altogether. Yes, the cleaning/maintenance bot doing maintenance issue.Which refers to my original point, If a drone does nothing it is breaking it's laws. If a drone does stuff it is, apparently, also breaking it's laws. Maintenance is their JOB. They are specifically given Soap and Space cleaner,... to... clean things. The trick to handling this is "Git gud" and "Stop whining, because it's a fucking game, not an olympian contest" and "You have a computer console that can specifically target and blow up maintenance drones that are acting up/are being a bother. Leaving materials in a fucking hallway or someplace NOT space, is not "Working in concert with them". Anymore then you putting out your trash bin on the curb is you working in concert as a city employee for garbage pick up. This argument is, I'm sorry, completely asinine and is reaching farther then Mr. Fantastic. Because on the one hand you're saying "Be oblivious to your surroundings" and on the other you are saying "But don't be oblivious to surrounding crew." That doesn't play. Either you are so oblivious that you leave shit in space, thus wasting NT profits, and are oblivious to the doings of crew, which also means cleaning up blood and unwelding vents regardless because by law you have to clean, repair and improve the station. Or you are NOT so oblivious to do those things that annoy people, and moving repairs inside is a sensible action. di·rect·ly diˈrektlē,dīˈrektlē/ adverb adverb: directly "with nothing or no one in between" in·volve inˈvälv/ verb "cause (a person or group) to experience or participate in an activity or situation." By that logic you have just thoroughly explained how drones shouldn't do anything. They should stand perfectly still and stare at their surroundings, because otherwise any action, ANY action, is involving yourself in a tangential sense. If you clean a mess? you involved yourself in the janitor's work. Did you repair a wall? Well shit you just involved yourself in the task of engineers. Did you step into a cyborg recharger, well shit, you just involved yourself in that borg's goings on as you;re taking up his recharger. It should be pretty god damned obvious to sensible minds that there *IS* a limit on the wording of a law, and rule lawyering in either direction should be (and IS) extremely frowned upon. DIRECTLY involving yourself does NOT include leaving shit laying around in a place others can get to it. You cannot lead peopel to it, you cannot indiciate it is there, but you sure as HELL can drag it into a place that is accessible. And frankly this goes beyond something so stupidly mundane as "Why not drag stuff?" It's this entire toxic mindset people have of "But my fun is more important! You can't do things because my fun!" that is on a fucking rampage lately. God forbid someone not me be able to do a thing that might mildly inconvenience me in a fucking video game. TL;DR: There isn;t one, I'm not fucking sorry.

1: So I suppose a Drone should stand perfectly still and do nothing? Because by virtue of doing ANYTHING you are involving yourself in the matters of someone else. By virtue of doing repairs, improvements or making sure things are powered you are affecting things. This is being EXTREMELY pedantic and micromanaged of wording as opposed to the spirit of the law which is "Don't do things that make sweeping changes on a round in-progress" such as trying to out the antag or actively helping someone. So no. It is not indirect opposition to my laws. It is COMPLETELY within them as leaving materials for engineers to pick up later is not actively helping them, it is ensuring materials are not wasted. It would be against my laws to actually NOT respond to calls of station damage. 2: Who the hell mentioned Drones should be given plasteel...? Neither I nor anyone else implied or mentioned they should be given plasteel or even needed it. I said they should be able to DRAG it, so I can move them into the station when doing repairs so that engineers can collect the supplies whenever. If we're seriously going to start considering responding to calls of station breaches to do repairs, and moving the excess materials for proper engineers to pick up when they get there as "You're involving yourself, ding-dong bannu!" then just do everyone a favor and remove maintenance drones altogether, cuz I'm gettin' REAL sick of people flailing around everytime a drone does -anything- because it mildly affected them because god forbid someone ELSE be able to fun amirite?

Agree with everything else but this, there -are- a few things drones can't drag that are sometimes needed. Materials being one. If, as a drone, I am responding to a call to repair an explosion site, I cannot in anyway, shape or form, move the plasteel into a spot engineers can reclaim it to reinforce the walls or to just take the plasteel. Nor can I move the excess metal around, if I am at or above 50 Metal sheets in my stack. I know it's because "But Drones will yakkity sax away with vital materials and be a general shit-head" But isn't this also why the Drone console exists to remotely explode/shutdone drones that are being fuck heads? And if a drone is dismantling that, while not e-magged that'd be a huge A-helpable red flag, no?

Yeah The thing with that is, I said 'The NT Rep is the IAA of Command' not that they should do that for entire crew. Allow me to put it in a different way. A CE is the "Engineer" of command, he does everything a normal engineer, but also provides oversight and does a few special duties. The CMO is a "Super Doctor", they do everything a doctor does, but also manage the regular doctors. The RD is Scientist+, trying to keep science nerds from exploding everything but making sure science gets done, typically helping to achieve that. In all these cases, the underlings of these bosses dhave the same job as said boss, just in a less responsible and less managerial form. an MD is the doctor of the crew, but if someone gets fucked in the Command staff, it is usually the CMO or the Blueshield that are personally responsible for those treatments. Engineers do work in most areas with the crew, but if Command wants something special modified, it's the CE who gets that done. Similarly, the IAA is the complaint office of the standard crew, to make sure SoP and Space Law are properly applied. And the NT Rep is capable of providing that same role *IF* no IAA are present in the round, but otherwise? They are the IAA of command, they make sure the other heads are on task and doing things legally, with NT's best interests at heart. They both have the same job in that sense. And one can "Take over" the other's job if required because of a lack of the other, They overlap to the point the NT Rep is far better suited to the goal and task of IAA's then the Magistrate whose authority is Space Law and ONLY Space Law, to the point he can make almost any decree about Space Law.

This is almost literally saying that the NT Rep is the IAA of Command and the IAA handles everyone else. That's *far* from "Little crossover" if anything that's an almost complete crossover, and even MORE reason the NT Rep should be the one to oversee the IAA in addition to/instead of the Magistrate.

Wouldn't be sad in the slightest if Sec Borgs were obliterated from the code. They may have counters, but in a vast majority of rounds I play or watch, Security borgs tend to be the cause of a majority of the salt in a round, and generally cause a lot of shit or tow the line on their laws an excrutiatingly high amount. But. That said. The code doesn't revolve around me or my personal hatreds, and they DO have a selection of counters. I'd say it's not too extreme to up the cell cost of their stuff, so they can't spam into oblivion.... but then again Bluespace Cells exist, so. /shrug

Cloning, mechanically is not a problem and in the effort to not sound like a broken record I'll skip on to elaborate other points. The primary issue we have, as I and others have said is really "Mentality. The Min-max mentality that a lot of players have had lately, exists both in departments (Scientists who deride anyone not getting RnD done in sub 5 picoseconds, Doctors who opt to just let people die and clone them cuz they can't be assed to fix their skeleton, etc.) and more in general, such as antags who focus so hard on greentexting and "Winning the game" to the point that they effectively make the game moot to begin with, because nothing happens. Like a game of DnD where the party min-maxxed and power gamed and killed their Big villain in the first session and now are left with nothing to fucking do. But the secondary and tertiary issues we have lumped onto that Community Mentality issue is, like Birdtalon said, nobody is going to take dying in a Space Fart simulator that seriously. Odds are you're gonna go "Aw god damn it..." as you death-gasp and start up youtube or salt around in D-chat until you either get revived or round ends. The Tertiary problem is simply innate to the fact we're Medium RP, we're middle between very *VERY* Different groups of people. On most RP focused or HRP servers, Death and cloning tends to be pretty strictly enforced. Clone Memory Disorder is administratively enforced, if you pop out of a clone tube going 'BOB MCDOUGLAS KILLED ME!' Odds are you;re gonna get bwoinked an told not to do that. We do not do that here. Nor do I think we should, but it's also foolish to dismiss it as a problem that brings down RP Standards overall, it's pretty hard to be immersed sometimes when people go do things like "Wow I was a nuke op just an hour ago!" Higher RP inclined crowds EXPECT that sort of stuff though, because they feel fundamentally basic to keeping a good RP environment, there has to be -some- order in the chaos, in the sameway a DM sometimes has to interject and tell his players "You would have no knowledge of that, sorry." when they start acting out of character and generally fishy. But Lower RP crowds don't want that that. They're not here to write a fuckin space novella or take part in a space soap opera, they're here to play the fuckin game, and that's just as acceptable a style too. But right now we're a "Wild West" when it comes to that sort of thing, everyone can do everything and do it all the time and it's turning into a cacophony of just utter *NOISE*, everyone is playing their own instrument to their own beat. At some point, a standard has to be developed, a point where not just staff but the community as a whole has to do something *REALLY* Hard and find a middle ground, a standard of RP procedure that the LRP crowds can accept and endure to keep from alienating the HRP crowds, and the HRP crowds need to be willing to bend a little here and there for the people are are just here to play a game. Because at some point you DO have to lay down a gentle "I'm sorry, that makes no sense for you or the theme of things." Otherwise players WILL keep running with that inch you gave them. TL;DR: There is no TLDR, and I'm sorry I made a wall.

It's not that simple. That requires map edits, and loading that map onto the server, or an Admin to go in right as a round starts to remove the cloner. This is like saying "Sec is way too reliant on executing antagonists, they should have to BUILD their execution chamber to encourage more use of Perma."

The problem is that -is- removing Cloning in practicality. The state you're talking about is exactly the same state that Telescience exists in, and I can count on one hand the number of times I see that reconstructed in a month. If you make Cloning require construction it is effectively removed because everyone is going to use SR and Defibs, which are almost universally superior options in every case of revival, save for when someone has broken their entire skeleton. No one is going to be bothered to construct a usually inferior form of revival, and Geneticists will have literally no responsibilities but to fuck off in their lab (They're supposed to create and distribute Clean SR's for cloned dudes, and are SUPPOSED to handle cloning in the first place.) Cloning is already the WORST option to use in reviving someone in most circumstances, not the least because you can only revive a single body at a time, unless someone makes additional cloning pods and the time it takes to fully clone someone is not a short one (Speed-cloning is on the slate to be nerfed if it hasn't gone through already.) Consider the amount of corpse back up that medical gets when shit storms happen. Back when Cloning was the only form of revival that was a big deal, you could REALLY get bogged down in revives, especially in Blob or nuke op tier shitstorms. And there's a few ways of killing someone that leaves them unable to be cloned unless science has upgraded the machine. Reliance on Cloning isn't a problem with Cloning that's a problem with MENTALITY, that's people being LAZY and min-maxing in the same fashion as a DnD player making a Dwarf Fighter for 2 levels to get special perks before going strait Barb for max damage, strictly for numbers and not for roleplay. That's a PLAYER problem, not a mechanical one.

As a looooong term medical player I can tell you, removing cloning not only won't fix anything, it'll make things worse. Cloning is not the problem. Cloning is a simple revival method, sure, but it doesn't work on every race, and it is easily sabotaged and destroyed. Cloning takes a long time, spits out people with brain damage and genetic defects and in the case of Vox/Slimes doesn't even work, and is extremely hard in the case of Plasmamen. Cloning has been in SS13 a VERY long time, and as someone from former H-RP Servers, it was never a source of problems. The problem we have is player mentality and the sheer NUMBER of revives you have. A Body can't be cloned for reasons? No problem SR/Defib it. Normally that's the sort of thing requiring science to really upgrade the Cloner to perform (Cloning husks for example), but as it is now Medical can do that on their own with very little issue. They Start with Defibs and SR is easy enough for chemists to make on their own. Again. Cloning itself is NOT the issue, it's oversaturation of revives coupled with a very high Power Game mentality of :"More effective to do X then Y" as opposed to roleplay. Removing cloning will not fix that nor make people roleplay, it'll just encourage them to power game even harder to avoid death. Until Mentality/Community gets more on the same page about Medium RP needing both RP -and- gamepaly, as opposed to a min-max mentality, this problem isn't gonan be fixed by a silver bullet.

Fucking please. I'm always upset everytime my Kidan talks like a normie cuz I forgot to click the button. :< +1

1) That's on people, not the objectives. That's not any different then people completing an assassination with zero trail and leading to boring stagnancy. That's just am indsset, not a problem with either style of objectives. 2) Traitors an Lings have a LOT of options to leave someone unable to scream for help, and to do so quietly. The Parapen's exact purpose is for that kind of thing, not to mention how easily you can get Neurotoxin or memechems involved. 3) People are advocating for Theft, primarily because that's just what we have to work with right now. I don't think it SHOULD be limited to theft, and new styles of objectives would open this up further, but for the immediate future, there's not THAT much to pick from. 4) Theft objectives are boring because people MAKE them boring, which refers back to point 1. People go for some shitty green text, not for something fun an interesting for everyone involved. This is again not a probem for or against ANY objective type it's a really shitty and really rampant attitude in the playerbase right now. 5) I never meant to insinuate they SHOULD be stolen, but there's lots of little acts of sabotage or theft that can be done to add to the round, even if just helping other more murderous antags, by providing distraction or lookout. Just because you opt out of pacifist objectives, doesn't mean you can't help non-pacifists in your own way. I would also agree that more vareity or jazzed up objectives would help, but I don't think this has to be an "Either-or" kind of solution, I think it's perfectly acceptable and viable to do both.

You keep using the term "Uninteresting" to describe non-lethal objectives. That is an EXCEPTIONALLY Subjective opinion, especially considering the wealth of a variety of media focusing on thieves, cat burglars and generally savvy bastards that go about activities without marking a single kill. There's clearly potential for it to be interesting, it's all in execution. Is the chaplain killing his target in the first 2 minutes of the round to cremate the body and wash away the ashes, really that interesting? Doesn't sound interesting to me, but you would also argue, very much correctly, that's a really shitty execution of the 'Assassination' objective, in terms of making the round fun for more people. Just because someone got rubbed out doesn't make it better. Conversely, someone just perfect stealthing their way to stealing the CE's blueprints is not innately interesting either (It's super fuckin dull actually.) But with proper execution and the willingness to take a risk, to leave enough of a trail for people to follow, it CAN be interesting. Especially if you don't stop with a single theft. Keep going. Probably best not to steal other antag objectives, but you can still very much nab things people will notice and make sure they don't forget you've got a Grade A Spy/thief on the loose. The problem here is attitude. "Greentext over memetext" mindset that people gotta get that DANK VICTORY SKOER instead of actually making things fun even if it means you might be caught or put you at greater chance of losing in the end.

Personally, I'd leave a more barebones skeleton of it in place, if it's implemented and leave it to Engineering to finish constructing the rest. It gives engineering something to construct, a goal to work towards when nothing is going wrong and one that not only they, but the entire crew can reap the rewards of, so you can SEE the engineers work first hand and experience a QoL boost because of it. It's something you WANT them to build, as opposed to them making a personal fortress and so people may be less inclined to fuck with the project if it means trashing your own fast travel system. (Or it'll be a beacon for fuck heads, iunno.)

The title doesn't matter that much though. Just because an MD has spawned in as a Coroner doesn't mean he stops being a doctor, if Medical is shorted staffed, you're damned right the Coroner should be leaving the Morgue to help out. Just because a Nurse isn't expected to do surgery, doesn't mean they -can't-. What alternate titles do is either provide flavor, or they announce a specialized task you wanna focus on. If I spawn in as a Surgeon I am basically telling medical "Hey guys, I have Surgery covered." Freeing MD's up for other things. A Security Guard, for example, is basically saying he's volunteering or preferring to stay in the Brig and help the warden with prisoners and manage records, keeping it orderly. But just because that is what he WANTS to do, doesn't mean he's absolved of normal Security Officer duties if there are too few or no Officers on staff, you'll be expected to step up because it -is- still very much your job.

Mostly we just have the imgur links at the bottom of twin's post.

Autopsies give you the probable source of the damage, any chems present inside of them at time of death and the possible Cause of Said death. If someone was beaten into crit and left to suffocate or if they flat out beat them to death. Combined with a Detective's forensics, you usually get a pretty damn good picture of who did what. The only problem is sec usually doesn't wait on those reports and by the time the Coroner does his job, Sec has already moved on. Which is partially why shortening autopsy time is kind of ideal, because then it can be done in that 10 minute holding window security has for suspects without taking forever and leaving said person locked in a room for a millenia.

First of: Bless you, you crazy bastard, for doing this. It's SORELY needed and a lot of work and time to do it. As for suggestions: so far the only real one I have to make would be, in your medical image to swap the Psychiatrist and CMO's office, imo. The CMO being against a maintenance wall gives antags a possible venue to carve their way in to steal objectives (Like the RD's office is now) And MOSTLY because I think the more visible and forefront the psychiatrist is, the more likely they'll be to see actual, real use. His new office is already a big improvement, but that's just my personal 2 cents. Also, is the Detective going to be able to reach the Morgue back there or is he losing access? Because it seems like he'd need Medical access to get that far, not just Morgue access.