shazbot194

Small update, the one conflict with the new recharger code had been fixed and should work 100% yet again.

I do have one thing to complain about. In a lot of the text boxes such as the quotes and to a lesser extent the search bar, its a grey text on dark grey background and at least for me, its very hard to read.

I feel like this is a good idea, but I don't really see any way for it to be implemented without creating major problems. Not to mention there is no cool down on turning around so it is very possible to bypass this system by spinning around, something a few people already do.

Hello, this is my re-make of this post. I am still covering all my points and adding a couple in, but it should be a lot less long winded. We are. We are saying that rather then trying to nerf them, you should try and strategist better when fighting the borgs, there are Technics that work. I also want to start off by saying that security borgs are still security members and should follow SoP to the fullest they can. If they break SoP in a way that is way un-needed and would net them a job ban as an officer, tell an admin. Now, you say borgs are too powerful and are too hard to balance. I do think borgs are very powerful in direct combat, but lack the means of investigating and lethal combat, and when compared to other borgs, are less lethal then almost all of them. So I will list some advantages and disavatages and talk about them in the context of shadowlings. Pros space proof Armored Can spam disablers immune to some stuns Add more players to security Can move through any unwelded doors Cons can be stuned with flashes and emps cannot move over tables cannot unweld doors cannot instant stun over distance combat is very power costly cannot field lethal weapons without illegal upgrades cannot benefit from "meme" combos like x-ray vision and an x-ray gun can be locked down or blown from R&D console inherently trusts robotics cannot arm non-security members in crises cannot search people and has to bring them to an officer has to listen to ai no matter what Yes, borgs are powerful, but are super limited. Some of their most powerful features like being able to go EVA asap is wasted on enemies that always stay in station and don't blow things up. As well, while they are armored, they need someone else to heal any damage done to them, even small amounts of damage can add up, not to mention if you do damage components, you effectively make the borg have to go to robotics for surgery. Disabler spam can be a problem and out of all of this, is most deserving of a nerf. Although, I personally don't think it needs to be nerfed, but that is just me. Their ability to go though any door is mimicked by officers who have the AI watching them. Counter to the believe that they are OP is the massive amounts of downsides I have listed. Yes, a lot of these may never come into a round, but the point is you have to make it, you can't just expect to not prepare and 1v1 a borg. Thralling science is clearly the best move to counter borgs as a shadowling. EMP shells might not be the most effective way to deal with borgs, but 3 shots hitting them from homemade shotguns will take a massive amount of energy from any borg, making them leave a fight early, not to mention if you thrall robotics, you can just have them de-brain the borgs and print out flashes to deal with any that they didn't get. Add onto this tabling up maintenance could stop them in their tracks and force them to call someone else in order for them to pass, grouping targets together. This is added ontop of the fact they flat out suck in lethal compared to both other officers and other borgs. A medical borg with a normal battery installed can do so much more damage then a security borg could dream of with a bluespace cell. Only with a illegal module installed do they start to bring enough firepower to a lethal fight, but by then, normal officers can be equipped with way more powerful guns and enhancements like x-ray, anti-drop, and adrenaline with guns like tesla revolvers, x-ray guns, AEGs, or backpacks full of conventional laser guns. Borgs also have one unique weakness, they can be blown up or locked down if you manage to take down or thrall the RD, eliminating them from the round with a press of a button. They also lack the authority and means to arm people who are trusted with weapons, preventing major pushes from non-thralled people in additon to not being able to check people for illegal goods like weapons which pull other people like officers away from hunting down thralls. As well if the AI doesn't want to play ball with the HoS/captian or they have different priorities, they may be forced to do meaningless tasks. If you are having problems with security borgs being powerful, be creative in dealing with them. While I know you were not in that round, nor was I, it sounded like they had the run of the station for a good while before the bots took it back. Why didn't anyone go to robotics and thrall one of them and tell them to just destroy the borgs when they come in or have them print out flashes. Why didn't they try tactics like putting tables in doorways to slow down or completely stop borgs, or when running from them weld the doors. Yes, 4 borgs can be a handful all at once, so why fight them all at once, why not find a choke point like a door or narrow hallway, they cannot move past each-other. It really feels like they lost not because of how powerful borgs are, but rather because of how weak their tactics were. You also bring up that they can increase the size of the security force by 50% with 4 borgs, and while that is true, the potential for shadowlings to increase in power is anywhere from 50-400% with the influx of people onto paradise. Where one group of shadowlings might have been able to get 10 people when there were 40 people in total on the server, they can get up words of 40 people thralled with 90+ crew members if they wanted to. This is only worsen by the increase in civilians leading to more people greytiding which takes up security personnel and leading to easy thralls. So in closing, I think that security borgs are more or less in a good spot, yes, they are powerful, in combat, they are a massive advantage even if they aren't super good at lethal damage, but this isn't meant to be a hug box (feels odd saying that) for antags to run circles around security but rather its meant to be a struggle where tactics win more then sheer brawn.

I agree it is very odd they don't spawn with huds, but if you really want to spawn with one, spend a couple load-out points to spawn with a classic sec hud.

I do quite like the 2nd option with the vampires as antags that always spawn with another set of antags, such as changelings, nuke ops, traitors, ext. I would say though they shouldn't have a 100% chance to spawn, maybe a 20% chance. This should keep the crew guessing when they would come and allow vamps the freedom to do what they want. Do they want to be killing machines that hide in metal boxes all round, do they want to thrall a ton of people and make a crime family, mafia style, or protest for vampire rights. Them no longer being EoC on sight would be great as well because they would then have the option to not just be murder machines. I do think they should stay antags to keep them from being forced into more peaceful roles and be judge case by case if they are a threat to the station, hopefully allowing some proper med-role play.

I think the solution to the problems of stealth items not being super stealthy isn't going to be one fix for all of them, but rather small fixes for each item. Syndi shoes and red soft suits are already in an ok spot as its normal to have those already. Other items like agent id need a fix from normal ids, namely that when you scan an id with it, if it was to produce a message, that you can do it with normal ids as well and get a similar message. Some items like the chameleon jumpsuit are already about as good as you can get because they are available on station normally even if no-one finds them. Just a whole bunch of small fixes as nothing big and sweeping will ever be able to make syndi items stealthier. I must be super lucky and convincing as I have been caught several time with EoC charges and I have yet to serve once for any of them, even when I hid contraband in plain sight. My favorite was when I hid the nuke in the turbine as an atmos tech and caused the station and CC to freak out. Even last night when I was search for being a suspected as cult member with a small group of people, I had a makeshift shotgun, a couple beanbag shells, and a saw in my backpack. The officers didn't mention anything. It was even labeled with my name.

I bet if people asked robotics, depending who is manning the desk, they would be more then happy to give them out. Plus with shadowling, vamps, and cult, wouldn't it then be a point to thrall, convert, or control the robotisist or rd so they can mass produce them, or hell, just break in and make a couple. Meaning that strategy can win over raw power. And I totally agree they aren't really weapons anymore except mounted versions.

Almost every time I play borg and something kills me, its exactly that, like 17/20 times with 2/20 being an emp of some kind. This gives me a great idea. What if we had a more module style of borg. Where if would be derived from the human tree just like a lot of the alien races are right now, but have it so different parts would apply different stats. For instance, a security borg could have two weapon/hand slots. This would be inherently limiting as the three main modules, zip ties, disablers, and the baton would all be competing for space. In addition there could be a torso mount for something ridiculous like a single use flashbang launcher, or more sensible things like sirens, surgical tools, storage, armor plating, ext. This would allow for more specialized borgs without having to make 100 modules and give features such as damage areas. Even different movement types could be added by changing out the lower body. This is an idea though and would need a ton of work. They also would not replace IPC, just borgs.

This PR isn't dead quite yet. To try and get some more support, I will be taking requests for anything new to add. New features, new sprites, just tell me. When I get time I will be adding more to this Pull. I will also be re-shading some of my sprites to have them fit in with what guns they are meant to be with.

I might like chainsaws. There were also about 10-40 more around the station. On screen is 70 chainsaws.

One way that might work is just have a another pool/value for in round karma and have it apply to the main /real karma pool when the is done restarting.

Not disagreeing in the slightest. I would love to see more interesting objectives that people cared about. Minus the emag trails and very rare rounds, theft is excruciatingly boring.

It could be done IC, but I do doubt waiting 30 minutes to have a title change is worth it. Totally think this is an awesome idea though. Honestly, I have been in so may rounds as pod pilot where the warden was too busy to hand out guns even when the HoS tells them to directly. Honestly, I think the warden also needs to be split up with more jobs, but that is for another suggestion.

I think they meant it to in addition to the normal antags. From what I understand, they are/were suggesting instead of trying to have the pacifist option we have miscreants, hence why its here in this discussion.

Ya, as ZN23X said, we changed from topic to topic, even if we start on one thing, we can evolve the discussion to another topic. If suggestions stayed static on the base topic, we wouldn't see a lot of the improvements we get.

If you ever see me in mining, just ask, might even get a KA out of it.

I quite like the idea behind the voice mask, mind any copyright material. It would be funny to have security and nuke ops yell at each other with their masks. Not to mention a quick way to tell people to get out of the way/get down. Just would have to find somewhere else to get the voices from.

And what about miners? They have a O2 jetpack that an both be placed in the exo suit slot and inside a backpack. Since this is a problem mostly with nukies, why not give them a small booklet/paper or have a poster with some general tips like this. I think a poster for this would be great in the airlock.

Well ya, that is the original post. Purpose2, ZN23R, Anticept, and even me now are talking about the miscreants. Which is tangentially related, hence why it was brought up as an alternative.

I think they mean new slots.

Isn't that what they have been talking about? The miscreants being antaglight with a focus on RP while at the same time proper antags run about killing, stealing, ext. Don't people who get objectives they don't like just ignore them? I have been on several rounds where I thought it was extended but there was at least 10 antags or a full cult and I have been in rounds that felt like traitor but turned out to be extended. There clearly needs to be a better "vetting" system for antags to keep people from getting objectives they just ignore. I feel like an addition of miscreants or some kind of antaglight to help proper antags, and generating objectives in a list before giving it to people and replacing anyone who doesn't want the objectives would make rounds so much more interesting.

Hey everyone, I managed to get EMPs to drain ammo from the guns in a similar way to energy guns. I also finished making the prototype for a security rifle. The way it currently is coded, it has 30 shots and weaker lasers that fire just as fast as a normal energy gun. It does 15 damage on lethal and 30 stamina on stun, as in takes 10 to hard crit someone on lethal, 13 to kill, and 4 to stun. It also has a different magazine that spawns without charge so if they would be bought from cargo, they need to charge first. Since it also has more ammo, it takes longer to charge. Please tell me you thoughts on how this would play out in balance.

One possible idea I had was if security was to get one, it would be the spam option. This would mean would be easier to balance for spam. Features would be it having more ammo but less damage per shot but the same fire rate or slower of the current laser guns but same total damage per magazine. This would also increase the charge time. Meaning it needed to recharge less but when they do go to charge, it would take a lot longer to charge. I also whipped up a possible sprite, but I feel like it needs a lot of work.

Thank you everyone for the feedback. I would like to say first that the EMP immunity is from me not having the time to code it in the EMP effect yet, hence why its not part of the feature list. I was going to have some time on Friday to add that in. The current selection of guns on display are meant to be event/admin spawn or be used for other forces such as Sol Gov troops. I know I didn't mention this and that is my fault. After reading all of your feedback, I was thinking of adding in a security rifle that would be balanced in a similar way to the autorifles but with its own benefits and limits. It would have a slower rate of fire to compensate for having more potential ammo as well as being only available from order by cargo. Or, I was thinking of maybe make it have half the damage (or less) of a normal e-gun with one and a half the magazine size but the same fire-rate to have a similar effect, which would have a side effect of longer charge times for empty magazines. In addition, any power cells that would be ordered would be uncharged so you have to charge them before use. I am also planning to have this done on Friday. Could I also get your thoughts on this. For the concern of blobs, having two-three energy guns would be more effective. While yes, you could get more power from the first burst way faster. They both charge at the same rate. That being said, if you wait you can have bigger bursts, but you could have a similar effect with having more laser guns. Not to mention if it is the security gun from above, it already would have a lower DPS. And I could see this style of gun being used in Gamma ERTs.