Love-To-Hug

This argument doesn't have a lot of weight because as it stands, this scenario you're describing basically never happens.

Are you referring to things like plasma fire or mobs being lit on fire? Because it shouldn't be affecting the latter...

I think I read something on the github about throw code being refactored soon? I'm not sure where though.

Oh, I missed that. As I said... I really wouldn't want it to change for nukie jetpacks. It seems like you'd have to spend an awful lot of time in space on a particularly long nukie round for it to become a factor, and even then, I can extend the lifespan of my oxygen tanks by lowering the output from 21 to 17kpa.

Well, it affects more than nukies. As someone mentioned, they do that with their sec pilot jetpack, as it can't fit in the bag. I think having it go in exosuit is fine, it just needs to have some indication that it won't propel you if it's not on your back. My suggested implementation would be a chat message that only appears when you do Toggle Jetpack when the jetpack is not on your back slot.

Uh, every time I've been a nukie ever it's what I've done and I've never even come close to running out of O2, even the time we spent an excessive amount of time in space. AFAIK having the jetpack feature enabled only consumes energy when it's being used to propel you, and it doesn't keep expending energy when idle. Never once used the extended oxygen tank, had no need for it.

Uh, you could be, but you'd be shooting yourself in the foot, since the antags doing well means the station is weaker for your takeover.

Nukie jetpacks are a source of O2. Meaning they have very good reason to put it in their exosuit slot when they don't need them as jetpacks. Great for swapping back and forth without having to rummage in the bag.

Er... is the implication that antagonists don't have it rough?

Mid-round antags having the benefit of metaknowledge isn't even nearly as big of an issue. What loyalists are doing is information that not only becomes obsolete quickly, but isn't that valuable in the first place. But what antagonists are doing is information that has staying power, as they could be under disguise, they could have a hideout, they could be hanging around a specific part of space... it's just far more useful information to have than 'Oh security is in the brig. The Captain is in the bridge. The chemist is making medicine.' Blobs can't even act on that information as they don't choose their starting point. Terror spiders typically just set up camp in maintenance nearest where they start from and go from there because speed is a priority. The ones that stand to profit the most are xenos, and even then, the information that's most valuable to them is something you would have to think to check beforehand, and by the time you check, someone's already taken the prompt to spawn in as a xeno. So that's moot too. Not to mention, antagonists are generally the interesting ones to watch. So when the prompt to become a mid-round thingie comes up, you're most likely going to have the most knowledge of the antagonists, not the loyalists.

I'd be against a whitelist too. There's too much favoritism already.

That's why my suggestion involves alternatives for the players to trigger. ERT would, ideally, become a rare occurrence.

That would nerf nukies.

I'll rephrase. Player-triggered mechanic, pending approval. Players should have nothing to do with bringing an ERT.

Wouldn't it make more sense to tie this to the new departmental playtime system (pending approval), rather than karma? I'm not exactly sure how you'd format the karma shop to communicate that 'Senior Engineer' is just a title and not any different from a normal engineer other than signalling you're experienced. Furthermore, it'd open up the possibility of getting Senior titles for jobs you don't even play that much. Plus, if highly experienced players want to instead save their karma for something like plasmaman, it means one less 'designated teacher' new players will be able to turn to. Aside from that, I like the idea. I just feel like they should just be automatically unlocked with high playtime in respective departments rather than tied to the karma system.

I've never died to ERT. The word 'validhunters' is pretty self-explanatory I feel. People who hunt valids. So in the context of ERT, any and all antagonists. They are indeed a validhunting group. So is Security. Because of metaknowledge, validhunters should not be pulled from dchat. I'm not sure where the disconnect is, here. Let's call a spade a spade. I'm also not sure where the roleplay argument is coming from. Are you implying it would be bad roleplay for the crew to take arms when Security is all dead and dangerous murderers are on the loose, who threaten their ability to make it home safely? You also talk about how crew aren't likely to stop antagonists, but then argue that the crew being after them would make antagonists lives harder. Why would it be harder than an ERT who are all equipped with guns, all access, and hardsuits? As far as introducing a way for people to get dead people re-involved in the round, sure, I support that - you'll notice the EET idea I mentioned would accomplish just that. In my opinion, other ideas should be explored to get people back in the game. But I fee that whenever a player is pulled from the deadpool, it should usually not be to hunt down antagonists. ERTs are extremely common right now, and I don't feel they add much fun to the round for both antagonists and loyal workers. ERTs are generally well-equipped to handle problems themselves, leaving little room for employees to have an impact as far as being a help to the station goes. It is as if the ERT has made the rest of the crew obsolete. I never said anything about removing ERT entirely. I simply believe it should not be a player-activated mechanic (i.e. something they can swipe for).

Metaknowledge is hard to police and generally isn't a problem, but ERTs are highly-equipped validhunters and, in my opinion, should be the last people trusted to not abuse metaknowledge from a game mechanics standpoint. I simply feel it's better for the crew to fend for themselves than to have dchat validhunters. I think it's not only much more fair, but far more interesting. I doubt many people have fun during an effective ERT call other than the ERT themselves, which I feel is a good counter to your 'game' argument. In other words, the goal should be for it to be as fun for as many people as possible, and I don't feel like ERT accomplishes that.

When all of Security is dead, trying to keep non-Security from getting involved with antagonists seems like a misguided effort to me. Especially when you consider the response is typically calling validhunters from dchat. Would you rather validhunters from the current crew or from people who have been speculating the station like a divine being looking down from heaven? So yes, I agree with you, Code Alpha would encourage validhunting. But it's the lesser of two evils in my opinion. ERTs are extremely powerful, fully equipped, and most importantly, have the benefit of having speculated. Baldy McGriefenheimer has a baseball bat and a go-get-em attitude. Actually the ERT decides when to evacuate, and I fail to see why SoP can't be changed as it has many, many times before. Nothing is set in stone. Obviously EET wouldn't be an option when it comes to xenos/blobs/etc. Because if the round has been plunged into anarchy anyway, might as well make it official and get some fun out of it. Currently, when rounds like this happen, everything just kind of stagnates until the automated shuttle arrives. Extremely boring. Who knows, a mutiny could be successful and they could re-establish order. Or maybe the Syndicate operatives themselves rise to power as the station's leaders. So many possibilities when all bets are off. This doesn't do anything to fix the 'validhunters from dchat' problem.

Jetpacks should alert you that you have to be wearing them on your back for the propulsion to work when you enable the jetpack in a slot that isn't your back.

It's my belief that pulling validhunters from dchat is an inherently flawed mechanic. Not only does it punish antagonists that manage to take out Security, but those who have been observing the round are privy to a lot of information that can be used subconsciously or purposely with plausible deniability. Here are some of my ideas for alternatives I've been thinking about: Code Alpha: A special alert level that functions similarly to Red Alert but needs admin approval like ERT currently does. Once activated, all doors on the station that are not command doors are set to emergency access. All station crew are allowed to possess weaponry and are encouraged to arm up and stick together. Emergency Evacuation Team: This would be similar to the ERT, but their objective is not to restore order to their station, their job is to facilitate evacuation. They arrive in a special escape shuttle equipped like an upgraded medbay. It takes 5 minutes to arrive and leaves after 10 minutes. EET orders is to stay and protect the ship and not validhunt, and to try and rely on the crew to bring those that need medical care. Exceptions can be made if escape is heavily breached. Can be emagged for it to leave sooner, but the console to do so is more protected than on the standard escape shuttle. Station Contract Termination: An adminbus event, triggered by mass incompetence of both Command and Security. Turns the station into a lawless free for all. Mutiny allowed, all IDs terminated, no grief rules.

A lot has changed in the past year. Rounds have become too chaotic to rely on Security for forcefully demoting, they're usually off fighting antagonists. 'Rounding up a posse' is just begging for trouble and a very long-winded explanation to the admins about how you weren't trying to get someone lynched.

Considering that the alternatives are far more effective, I'm not sure if it's a wise move to try and make telebatons so weak that it feels like they need one of the alternatives if they have any hope of forcefully demoting somebody. As has been discussed in the demotion terminal PR, Security cannot be expected to help you with demotions in this day and age.

If you're convinced Heads will just continue to do things they feel they can get away with, would you not be concerned that a telebaton nerf significant enough to make them unable to detain people would make them instead turn to getting stunbatons or stunprods, which are far more effective and may simply end up making it worse for antags?

None of the suggestions I've seen so far in this thread actually stop the act of stuncuffing, and would just guarantee that all heads have a pair of cuffs at the ready instead of relying on stunlock. (Except for, of course, the initial suggestion to remove telebatons entirely.) The way I see it, there's only three viable options if you want to get rid of a telebaton user's ability to detain people: Option 1: Make it take longer to cuff people. Option 2: Make the stun so short you can't cuff people in the stun frame. Option 3: Remove telebatons.

There are some issues with the user interface I keep running into no matter my role that I'd love to be looked at. I'm not sure how possible it is to fix them, so I'd appreciate some feedback from coders who work a lot with NanoUI and the BYOND UI in general. NanoUI windows that vertically scroll hide the 'title bar' when you scroll down, making the windows immovable until you scroll back up. NanoUI windows (particularly ones that vertically scroll) will often try to remember their position when re-opened in such a way that moves them above your screen. At this point they can only be moved back onscreen using the Alt+Space shortcut and then going to move mode and doing the arrow keys to move the window downward. When a window spawns a standard grey prompt box twice in a row (such as in the Character Customization screen) the first grey box loses focus, and the second and proceeding grey boxes never receive focus, and instead keep appearing behind the window. This will happen a lot with latency where you're not sure if the server registered your click and so do you do it again, and then you end up with a bunch of the same grey boxes behind the window. NanoUI windows that are meant to continuously update do not provide any feedback when they stop continuously updating - happens a lot with the handheld crew monitor and it is difficult to know when is causing them to stop updating when they don't give you said feedback. (This one is likely something that can't be fixed but I'll just throw it out there) Often when I send a message, it will not appear in my chatbox. Sometimes other people see it, sometimes they don't. Karma no longer has its own special tab and was instead moved to OOC, leading to the verbs getting used a lot less, particularly by new players. Awarding Karma is a very annoying process, oftentimes leading to situations where you can't award karma to who you want to award karma to due to safeguards that prevent people from metagaming. It would be nice if these safeguards could be lifted when the escape shuttle departs the station, or at the very least, when the round is over.