Rurik

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/21997

I'd be fully alright with them starting with security coms. Better that than they steal one. Plus, if they do catch a EOC/Greytide, it is better they call for sec and sec picks up said EOC/Greytide, rather than the BS wordlessly pulling them to processing. There isn't really an excuse to not give the BS one, especially since the fucking HoP gets one for free to listen in.

we should change the price to 1 tc

I would be satisfied with this compromise. Solves the problem Matt mentioned while still letting it be used in a purely defensive roll I mentioned.

This is true, and its the reason security have a positive win rate and is wins the long game in escalation. It is meant to be an uphill challenge for antags, and for loud antags to eventually lose one way or another, because this is a more appealing design. However, you're not using it defense of security winning a long war, or escalation, but rather in defense of nerfing a roundstart environmental tool to block disabler shots. I'm afraid it loses its meaning. Since this PR nerfs an invaluable tool to antags without antistun, it encourages players to do one of two things: Meth/Adrenals usage every round. I don't think any of us want to see one thing be dominant in every strategy, be it stealth or loud. It gets stale. For both loud and stealth strategies, multiple builds should not only exist but also be viable. Complete stealth, leaving no trace for security to follow, and thus never a need to block disablers. This should also be discouraged. Stealth itself is a good thing, more antags should be stealth than loud on average, however we still want them to be discoverable. We want security to have a chance to catch onto a lead, to random search, to force you into one pitched battle. We don't want stealth strategies that consist of permakilling your target 10 minutes in with a sleepypen, then hiding in space for 2 hours in case you are random searched. Its an extreme example I know, but this is what is encouraged when you make it even more difficult to survive a security chase without antistun. Reminder, 20 shots in a disabler, two hits to slow. The Belt/Tool PR was good despite public bitching because it made sense from a design perspective, and encouraged thoughtful use of your space. Tools are powerful. You must accept sacrifices to be able to store them. This is more than fair. Can anything similar be said for this PR? What opportunities for gameplay does this open up? The ability to win a chase easier as security? A lowering of the skill ceiling? I suppose we could argue that it encourages thoughtful positioning, or more tactical TC buys, or more active dodging of all 20 disabler rounds, but I've a feeling that won't be the result. I'd like to draw attention to these words. Every player on the server will do exactly that, but it won't be in a positive way. That is why I'm against this PR Disclaimer: Like 5 players on this server actively uses combat obstacle dragging and this PR isn't going to be that big of a deal. However, a change with negative consequences, even if small, is still enough to warrant noting and discussing.

Fully agree. My thoughts lie on the pull request for it, but in summary: We should be encouraging no-antistun play, not discouraging it. Locker dragging is one of the few things that keeps you from instantly going down to 20 disabler shots from one officer, only two of which need to connect to slow you down. While a few edge case during lowpop could make combat dragging feel "cheap" that is hardly worth this massive change that effects *everyone* on the server, not just the 20% that play security/antag. Plus, even on lowpop when you don't have an additional officer to cut someone off, it is okay to disengage and flank. Remember, even as an officer, you can pull back and re-position. The only "gamer move" I see here is meth, which is 5 times as effective at getting away than locker dragging, and lets you use it offensively to pick apart officers.

Undercover sec is something I never want. It has zero upsides other than mechanical advantage, and is overall damaging to damaging to the antag/sec dynamic. Granted, it is rare, but even so it'd be nice to have it disallowed in Space Law/SOP/Whatever instead of an honor rule between command/sec. Perhaps throwing in there that officers have to wear /something/ pertaining to their department, instead of dressing up in all grey to make an antag doubt its an officer at first glance (even a seconds hesitation could make a difference) would be a positive change.

There is 0 reason you should be more likely to get the job you want by not readying up, and just late joining 2 seconds after round begins. I shouldn't be fucked out of a security roll cause the extra officer slots are only available to late joins. Late join slots should be composed of what slots are left over, not reserved slots. This feature doesn't help with giving jobs to real late joiners either, as these slots, particularly security officer slots, are taken near instantly after shift start. The exception is lowpop. As it stands this feature only serves to punish those readying up and further reward those who latejoin 1 second after shift start to avoid being an antags target.

I don't like having an advantage over people because of what kind of monitor I have. Either I see more than my opponent, or I have a more readable chatbox than my opponent. A little extra screen space isn't worth the balance implications.

tweets?

Hivemind was perfect back when clings alone were squishy and weak. Now, a single cling with the right loadout and map awareness can give security a run for their money. Two clings working together with moderate skill can defeat the entirety of sec. Three and its pretty much a guaranteed ERT call, especially if they train together, doing each-others objectives. Hivemind needs to be updated to reflect this newfound individual strength, and that update should be outright removal. I am willing to accept it being made into a 2 point genome cost, anything is better than free, but outright removal is still preferable.

is this a trick question? changeling specific objective (genomes and become X) is too easy since genomes can be cheesed without a single absorption via DNA sting (which doesnt even out you as a cling), and the become X usually just becomes transform into X by the end of the round (no real way to fix this one though, if people dont wana become target we cant force them)

why the fuck is this still a thing, if a cling wants tot gear let them earn it by killing a tot, not hogging two roles at once

First of all, I respect the effort post. Nice to see that kind of energy around. I fully agree with your proposed defining of the dangerous clause, as well as removing stunbaton/disabler from armed and dangerous clause. There's really no argument against this. There is never a situation where you need to lethal someone who stole a disabler. Not even lethals to slow them. As for defining dangerous as someone who killed a crewmember, this is also reasonable for reasons stated and would be a positive impact. Its what I've been following personally—the more crew killed and/or permakilled, the higher the equating response. Now for the Stims/Implants/Bio-Chips This is absolutely false. I've killed entire sec teams with 3 roundstart meth pills, because meth is that fucking effective. Now, there is a skill issue of course cause a few good harmbatons will bring me down. However, it is absolutely worth lethalling, and while yes security doesn't *have* to lethal, as charlie said, they were designed for such. When sec doesn't lethal an adrenal/meth user it should be considered a kindness, not a given. Just because its possible doesn't mean it should be expected in this circumstance. I object heavily to meth/adrenals being put off the lethal clause. As a note, I am considering the fact that under your revised definitions, a meth user who kills an officer is now dangerous and able to be lethalled. I, however, support them being able to be lethalled before any such action takes place. In conclusion, I feel there's a compromise that can be had of keeping adrenals/meth/stims clause the same, but changing the prior two points to your redesign.

Good catch, typo. Yes a knockdown specifically was the intention. Thats true. Could make it so the baton *only* knocksdown, instead of applying the (60 I think a baton gives?) stamina damage, thus you still need two more hits to actually stun them. This will nullify any combos.

50/50 chance to knockdown at the cost of losing your only melee weapon isn't exactly OP anymore, since batons knockdown instead outright stun now. Its use would be slightly questionable, but not outright useless as to deny having it at all. Baton throws added a interesting choice of combat before, and it can still do so now with knockdowns. I see little reason not to have it. If there is still worry it'd be OP, then being made so if the baton is caught no knockdown is applied would be a good compromise. It would relegate any issue against it to a matter of "skill."

(MELEE = 50, BULLET = 5, LASER = 5, ENERGY = 5, BOMB = 0, BIO = 0, RAD = 0, FIRE = 200, ACID = 200) (MELEE = 10, BULLET = 50, LASER = 5, ENERGY = 5, BOMB = 35, BIO = 0, RAD = 0, FIRE = 50, ACID = 50) These are the armor values for riot and bulletproof armor, respectively. Both of them cover *every* limb, including hands, feet, excluding only the head to leave a use for the helmet. These two items cost 0 TC, 0 PvE requirement, while also having 0 drawbacks and covers each limb. The moment armory opens security are free to wear them the rest of the shift with absolutely no consequence for half-off a damage type. Because of the additional factor of protecting hands/feet, there is also no counter-play aside from choosing a weapon with armor pen. Or, of course, choose a different weapon, but TC isn't adaptive like that. Personally I don't think something as powerful as half-off a damage type should be paired with no drawbacks. These should be situational, not choose-your-flavor candies you pick up and wear the rest of the shift cause why not. Dufflebag tier slowdown would solve this issue handedly, although I'm not entirely satisfied with slowdown being the answer to every armor. I'd prefer a different solution, but I don't see one.

Nobody should get a benefit as massive as roundstart NV simply for choosing a specific race. Seeing people first, especially when it comes to antags/sec dynamic, is an absolute massive advantage. Slime people being able to ventcrawl while naked was more fair then this. Vulp/Taj should have their race centered darksight removed. Or, re-add darksight to cling "Augmented Vision" so I can at least see the vulp oFFICER BOLA'ING ME FROM PERFECT DARKNESS HOLY FUCK

There absolutely should be. AI should not be able to word lawyer its way into acting essentially the same no matter the lawset. Crew should have a good idea what lawset will lead to them being bolted, and what lawset won't. It should never be an OOC guessing game of "hope this AI player is chill and not an ass!"

Stunprods still have a use, but its mostly for a combat opener (hit with stunprod, swap to butcher knife then start stabbing while they cant run). It no longer fits the kidnapping niche it once had. I fully agree it should be made Bulky (fit on back, not belt) and in compensation make it 2 hits to crit like stunbaton. There's no real need for the cell charge changes imo, trading bulky for one less hit is a fair enough trade as it stands. If your worried it'll be op you can throw it in though. Lastly: It should be noted this yields double benefit of no civilians being able to hide a stunprod in their pack "just in case" as it'd be visible to everyone. This alone makes the change worth it.

I'm too lazy to answer questions or write a word essay but I'll mention the three below points, since I don't see people bringing it up often: Having an antag that is dependent upon greytide running into maints is well and dandy, except when having X number of converts = instant win. I cannot stress that enough. It works somewhat okay for cult because cultists still need to perform the ritual that announces their location AND do a sac objective first. As it stands, slings can win a round without ever fighting sec. Just kiting and thralling greytide. Looping back to the first point, it is not a coincidence that when slings are announced half the assistants on station rush maint. imo, ahelping is not a valid solution in a long run. Its more work on the admins, they always have plausible deniability of "i ran into maint cause i wanted a multitool sorry xd" and its near impossible to tell if someone is intentionally getting thralled or got nabbed by thralls unless you are observing. With the slings abilities, it is possible for one to stall out a round for the entire shift with effective use of teleports, even if they are alone with no thralls. They can effectively kite for the entire two hour shift. The only reason we don't see it more often is cause usually they get bored and do something ballsy, or accidently teleport via lag into space. TLDR: Kiting infinitely is lame, and having an antag that is dependent upon lowkey antag fishers is a bad idea.

Disregarding my first few rounds figuring out controls (2016ish), it was clown. Lots of clown. Then eventually I stepped from my shell and did Station Engineer. Lots of Station Engineer. Easily a year or two, if not more, of only that role with minor exceptions. However, I played it for the free gloves, tools, freedom from so much downtime, and to greytide security. Never for the actual job. Eventually a lot of the old name players I knew started leaving (2019/20?), and I got bored without people to greytide with, and I started playing the bad guys, Security. I've never stopped. Unless you count Therapist for the sweet sweet legal meth. Preference tier list by God Gamer Rurik: S tier - Security Officer, HoS, Therapist, Clown. A tier - B tier - C tier - D tier - E tier - Assistant, HoP, Captain, Paramedic, Blueshield, Detective, Janitor, Mime, NT Rep, Station Engineer, Medical Doctor, Coroner, QM, Cargo Technician, Cyborg, CE, RD, CMO, Warden, Chemist, Roboticist, Explorer, Atmos Tech, Geneticist, Chaplain, Librarian, AI, Virologist, Chef, Bartender, Barber, Botanist, Ghost Roles. F tier - Shaft Miner, Scientist.

I can attest to the pyro slimes being an absolute nightmare to fight if the controller plays to kill. Even if they don't randomly murder without warning, and give off semi-rp lines like "You look tasty" before going for the kill, they'll still get the kill most of the time unless the victim books it immediately. Personally I don't mind this by itself, I even kind of like it, however a problem arises when said dangerous as fuck slime decides "I'm going to kill every engineer that tries to fix the SM, and I'm going to do it at meth speed from the heat." Or they systematically begin to kill all of science, or medbay, targeting doctors and people in surgery, etc etc. If the above happens, the slimes impact on the round can drastically outweigh what is meant from a non-major event mob.

Thermite is ridiculously op since its so easy to make. However, I hate AI's so I'm going to use it anyway. Malf AI's can also end everyone's round (even if they rarely pull it off), so people have less restraint in general towards it. Similar to how veteran sec will treat a syndi going for a steal differently than a hijack syndi that plans to end the shift early.

This, paired with S34N said, does leave it in a bit of a muddled situation. Doesn't inspire confidence to bother ahelping if one admin would view one detective lethalling situation as valid and another as invalid. Learning what admins will and wont enforce and checking whose online before ahelping doesn't strike me as a good solution either. But I suppose there isn't much to be done there unless a head decides to step in and make a clear line, and, well I imagine thats easier said than done.