Corocan

Well first we gotta define 'stealth ops'. Presumably, the objective of a stealth operation is to secure the disk, arm the nuke, and escape without alerting the crew. I don't think I've ever actually seen this go down. The crew almost always gets alerted there's nukies on the station but, like you mentioned, it's far too late. A legitimate stealth op isn't a bad thing, the thing I think most people really hate are Blitz Ops, which is what most 'stealth ops' tend to devolve into because someone, naturally, gets caught so it just turns into four or five bloodsuits storming the woefully unprepared bridge and murderizing anyone in sight right before arming the nuke and escaping. I think a better option would be to severely limit the equipment that nukies can purchase without declaring war. Maybe only limit it to things that would be genuinely useful for a stealth operation and open up the more devastating equipment for those that actually declare war. This way, even if nukies decide to do a blitz op, they're not as heavily armed for a full scale blitz and have to deal with the fallout of a security team that is actually readily equipped to deal with them.

With a pill of 10u at a metabolism of 0.1u per cycle if you've got enough broken bones and bloodloss to put you at a severe enough speed disadvantage due to pain, unless you've got a pillbottle full of them or you're retreating for surgery, I don't think it would be a notable advantage in a fight. Edit; I will concede on the broken bones argument but only really if the broken bone is a foot.

Why bother with painkillers when you can use patches with instant metabolism rates that'll take you out of crit, thus fixing the pain. The way salicylic acid is right now is practically a ghetto med when compared to everything else that comes in a standard First Aid Kit. The only reason I'd ever use a salicylic acid pill is if I literally have nothing else left that can heal me. It would actually work even better as a combat med if we implemented it the way that /tg/ does.

The way Salicylic Acid works on /tg/ and Paradise is different, though. Salicylic acid on Paradise has more function as a lite painkiller while healing some really minor brute damage, whereas on /tg/ it doesn't really provide any pain killer properties and works more as an emergency med for when the brute damage is really bad. If you use it when you're just lightly bruised, it doesn't heal as much. It's kind of like calomel or perfluorodecalin; you only use it when you're in an extreme condition. tl;dr Salicylic Acid on Paradise is functionally different, not identical, from /tg/'s Salicylic Acid. That being said, I think it'd actually be better to make salicylic acid function like /tg/'s version and, if that was done, it'd only be right to include oxandrolone as it functions in /tg/. Reason being, the way salicylic acid is, it never gets used and is generally considered an inferior medicine to say, saline-glucose, in every way. I think it'd see more use if it functioned like /tg/'s version.

Honestly, there should be more penalties to using some of the Shadowling's abilities, especially lategame ones. It's a good incentive to prevent people from willingly chucking themselves into maints because they know their round could end due to the Shadowling requiring more bodies to fuel the machine.

This has failed me before and I stand by the fact it's a syndicate myth spread to get people to let themselves be blown up.

And that's the unfortunate part about cult/sling/vampirethrall is that you can't really stop this from happening because often times there's not really enough substantial evidence to prove that people are getting caught intentionally. The only real incentive is to make it more painful to be an antag than to be a regular crew member. Forcing players to partake in objectives that might go against their IC wishes is probably the safest bet to make the Borers a legitimate threat rather than a neigh infinite source of free drugs and power game. I know that a lot of the player base treats willing borer participants with much disdain and I think it's well deserved since from an IC perspective they shouldn't want this brain slug in their heads and the very notion of vomiting out the offspring of said brain slug should revolt them, but it doesn't. In conclusion, I think the addition of an objective to sort of give the borer a legitimate goal that sets them against the crew is a good idea, however, this alone will be enough for the crewmember to desire to remove the head slug, so I think that keeping or removing the ability to Take Control wouldn't really sway anyone one way or the other. I think that it would actually be to the borer's benefit, as it should be in this relationship, to keep the Take Control ability. Great suggestion!

I agree with this concern and would like to point out I never said that the Chaplain should have the god given right to kill the Vampires. Even if the Vampires are Vampires, they're still protected by Space Law and shouldn't be killed without good reason from Space Law. Even from an IC perspective, it makes perfect sense for them to be adversaries. Furthermore, the Chaplain has no obligation, even, to engage in any form of combat with the Vampire and may remain a strictly roleplay role if they choose. I understand the concerns with making this an official change, but, in my mind, the Chaplain would operate with the same exact RoE that Security is required to work with. I think Necaladun's suggestion is an excellent middle ground for this idea and requires no real change in the rule set, so I'm going to go ahead and request this thread be locked since there's a viable alternative I never really considered available. Thanks for your input everyone!

You say that as though experienced vampires would have no problem disposing of the Chaplain, but later say that inexperienced vampires will get crushed by one. The Chaplain's immune to most of the Vampire's abilities, so it's not really about being an experienced or inexperienced vampire, but being an experienced or inexperienced player, so I don't think your notion that this puts new vampires at an unfair disadvantage holds any water. As for the inexperienced vamps lives becoming harder, that's what happens when you're new at something. You're not going to be good at it right off the bat. Artificially making the crew's lives harder by forcing Chaplains to be specifically prohibited doesn't change this fact one iota. If you're a bad vampire, you're going to get caught or die and that's just how it is. That player will very likely have another opportunity to antag again someday and they will learn to adapt their play style to get around these elements. Antagonists already have a large selection of tools at their disposal to help them combat the crew's efforts and it's their jobs to use these to the best of their abilities to complete their objectives. Chaplains are already targeted by cult on cult rounds and they very often survive regardless of this fact (In fact, they're targeted for just doing what they do already). I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Antagonists' job is to be an antagonist. Sometimes that involves killing a player and keeping them out of the round. In fact, most antagonists have objectives specifically dedicated to assassinating players already so I don't think your claim that it'll ruin the Chaplain's round, in an unfair way, makes any sense either. Nobody likes getting dunked on, but that's all about the learning experience. SS13 is a cooperative game, but for the antag's case, they are against the crew which means they are competing against the various elements dedicated to thwarting their efforts. Antags have a lot of good tools at their disposal and more relaxed rule sets to complete their objectives. They'll learn to get better, as everyone does, I promise. Well, firstly, I don't think that if this rule gets relaxed that we'll see combat Chaplains as a regular thing. There's also nothing forcing the Chaplain to do anything in the first place, merely creating room for the possibility. Additionally, I don't think a karma locked role is going to prevent any of the things you're afraid of as we still see stuff like Redshields. IC Command should be the ones regulating, and punishing if need be, the actions of the little Van Helsing.

If they want to help, they should be staying in the brig, assisting with prisoners, while sec watches their back. That's completely contrary to the Warden's job description, which is to deal with the prisoners. Anyone can do this, but the Chaplain's special abilities are unique to them and serve no advantage to the crew by being forced to be wasted in processing. Going rambo as chaplain in these round types can really cripple the station's ability to respond to threats. I completely agree actually, but assuming the proper channels are adhered to and Command makes the decision to allow this, it shouldn't be a bannable offense. If you die... that's it. You probably won't get replaced, and nobody else can do your job. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, as anyone can do anything the Chaplain does in your standard run of the mill Vampire/Cult round? What they cannot do, however, is be immune to Cult magics/Vampire abilities, which is entirely moot if you're dead set on keeping the Chaplain as far away from the fight as possible. The only big reason to leave the brig as chaplain during confirmed cult/vampire rounds is to use your book to erase cult runes. Anyone can do this with Soap. The only real difference is the Chaplain can break any Talisman of Veiling/Disguising used to hide runes somewhere. That can be a major help, and is worth doing... but you should probably take at least one sec officer with you when you do so. Precisely. The Chaplain is too vital to just let loose on the station with a taser and a badge. Not only is this a waste, but it's a major liability, like you mentioned above. They should partner with security and assist on patrols or on reports of occult activity, NOT sit in the chapel and respond to every report like a vigilante. In summary, everything you've mentioned above has been more so on why a Chaplain's involvement could be a bad idea ICly if handled by the wrong people, but not so much on why it's necessary to be a server rule, which is more so the topic of debate. This is not an essential function of the chaplain, but more so one of convenience, as any one can make holy water. I'd argue roundstart vampires are not weak, as it's not uncommon to see a fully powered vampire within 15-20 minutes of roundstart. Additionally, if a vampire gets caught that early, it's very likely security won't have a problem apprehending them I can understand your fear of the potential murderbone, however, this is why I've suggested that the Chaplains have to go through security and even then they're still subject to Space Law. Besides, we already see security executing and cremating underpowered vampires all. the. time. so this fear isn't something that's specific to a Chaplain, anyways. That's not really meta, that's just a good idea because it'll hamper Security's efforts in the future. I feel like that's akin to saying it's meta to try and kill the Blueshield if the Captain is your target, or something. That's debatable, as it usually depends on whether or not security has been decimated and the Chaplain is the only real person who can turn the tide against the cult. Personally, I've seen situations where the Chaplain has taken up a sword against the Cult's constructs or aided Security in raids against a cult base on several occasions, though usually it's in the name of destroying runes or cult artifacts, but similar logic could be applied to Vampires if the staff would just allow it in an official capacity.

Why not?

Well, in all honestly, the Vampire's abilities are quite strong against anyone who isn't the Chaplain, so I feel like having one person who can nullify your abilities is a fair trade for a free stun, screech, jaunting, and xray. Additionally, conventional methods of fighting the Chaplain still exist. The Chaplain's immunity to these abilities doesn't tilt the favor in one way or the other; it merely levels the playing field. The same is true of cultists, actually. You don't need the Chaplain to beat the cult, but it certainly helps a hell of a lot if you do. As for the holy water, Chemistry can make holy water with just some wine and mercury, neither of which are at all hard to get. The only reason the Chaplain gets tasked with the holy water is they can bless an entire tank very quickly, which will typically be enough to supply for an entire round.

So this suggestion is here to complete one objective and that's to explore the unique relationship that the Chaplain role has with the vampire antagonists. Officially, Chaplains are not allowed to engage in any form of direct combat with vampires. It's considered validhunting and is generally looked down upon by staff. Some would even go as far to say that the Chaplain's overstepping their boundaries by getting involved in the affairs of any vampires period but I'll address why I think that's a massive misunderstanding and a general waste of the role. Let's begin: 1. The Chaplain could be a fighting role if the round demands it. We very often see the Chaplain used in cult rounds in a combative capacity. It's not uncommon (in fact one could argue it's almost mandatory) for the Chaplain to be used as an invaluable asset by security to assist in capturing, deconverting, and combating cultists. I see no reason why it should be any different for Chaplains on a vampire round. This role seems to be molded by a combination of creativity from the player and how that player reacts to the round. As a result, the Chaplain's duties are wide and versatile and should be allowed to extend to Vampire hunting if security allows it. 2. The Chaplain's SPECIAL. Similarly to the clown's ability to speak in comic sans or the Mime's ability to create walls, some roles have completely unique and inborn abilities at round start that are designed to facilitate and expand upon their special role on the station. Chaplain probably has the best inborn abilities. On top of being a conduit for the GODS the chaplain is naturally immune to the vampires' abilities (glare, bites, etc.), similarly to how they're immune to Cult magics and conversions, which is why they're so heavily sought after during cult rounds. Why is this not the same for vampire rounds, more specifically why is it not allowed? 3. The Chaplain is specifically equip to deal with Vampires. So hearkening back to my last point, the Chaplain has specific abilities that make them immune to the vampire's abilities. They also spawn with items that vampires are specifically weak to. Examples being: As well as holy water, which vampires are deadly weak to, which Chaplains spawn with a flask of and also the ability to make more out of any regular water. These are invaluable counters to vampires and they're specifically made to help deal with vampires so why is it not ok for security to employ Chaplains to assist in hunting a vampire? So to wrap this up, I'm not saying that Chaplains, upon realizing it's a vampire round, should be allowed to don their crusader armor, grab some beads and a sword and go to town hacking apart anyone who's bumbling about maintenance. What I am saying, is that, similarly to cult rounds, they should be allowed to supplement security in matters strictly pertaining to the apprehension (or extermination) of vampires. If you don't want this to be the case, remove these functions from Chaplain because they're clearly indicative that it should be. I'm personally looking for more of an administrative mindset to this, but I am curious what the playerbase thinks as well. From what I gather, there's no concrete consensus on this issue, so I'd like to take this opportunity to bring it into the light so we can maybe get that concrete consensus in an open, public discussion. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

huffing glue, but this is actually pretty cool. i saw this get promo'd a month ago and i was wondering if it was going to be good. what's your take on it? its on my list of vr games to get if i decide to buckle down and save for a headset.