Eric6426

Agreed, but then I'd suggest making it a clause that the NTR can only step in such case that either HoS o Cap (or both) are unavailable - Namely because NTR is an easy job to unlock, previously it was like 5 or 15 karma, and nowadays its locked behind a not-too-big time window, so as I want to trust NTRs, that's powers that I'm scared for HoSs and Captains to have. I'd say if Gamma was given to crew it'd need to be changed, specifically the part I cited, or it'd be messy in the sec way. Also we'd probably need another alert level for when admins want to step it up but don't want to go as far as to Epsilon/Delta

After skimming, I wanted to mention something; Firstly, not sure why the NTR would have power here; Their appearance would mean either HoS or Captain can, unilaterally despite the other opposing, call Gamma through NTR assistance. Secondly, Gamma is currently admin-only for good reason; It is too much power for two players to decide to enforce, as the current SOP of it reads; Reason for this being, Gamma is usually only given, as far as I've seen in my time, for two things: Either an extreme threat (which usually comes with Armory/ERT attatched) or because the crew, antagonist or not, is becoming too rowdy for security to handle, and they require higher permission to act. Both, in this case, lead to security to have heightened permission to lethal. Hearing that Gamma could become "the new red" would be bad - Firstly because its the last level, the 'shit is fucked, if this goes bad its either Delta/Epsilon' already. And secondly, it allows security to have too much room to do what they like. If anyone resists, they can immediately shoot, and Gamma is often one of the few times security can and will absolutely kill anyone who purposedly goes out of their way to get in their way. While I also dislike it when it happens to me, a simple pair of Captain/HoS/NTR being able to waive it at their own desire, in my view, will cause a lot of chaos that's a bit too far Captains already call Red over someone seeing a 'cling' with an 'armblade' (praise extended miner-players that get fake mining armblades) - So I'm pushed to believe they'd call Gamma the moment 2 officers died and had a /suspicion/ the vampire is full power (despite it being a 400 blood umbra)

Slippery slope time wise, though: Past defib timer, doing SR is generally pretty fine, damage from it is minimal, maybe you have to do 1-2 surgeries tops post-SR usage. But were it to pass like, 10-15 extra minutes? Body's going to be fucked as hell. Reviving a vox that was dead for 20 minutes after defib timer is basically a 10 minute endeavor on surgery alone due to post-SR damage. While a 1h and 30 minute dead human just pops into cloner and exits freely. But agreed, if cloner was a little less basic to refill, eventually needed SR to be used for revival or similar things that you noted, it'd probably make it a little less "put in cloner or ignore" style.

As someone who's played slime for a long period of time, and played medbay enough to have seen vox and slime corpses past defib timer... ... Medbay's not gonna bother, even if its empty sometimes they will not try because its really hard and time consuming, then the person can even just not want the revive or be off to play T-spider by the time you actually revive them. Albeit the surgery sounds like a pretty decent thing I doubt medbay would do it over cloner, or just not doing it, like they do with slimes already. Like people have said above, medbay's split between pretty calm and repetitive small healing or panic-everyone-is-dead-heal-everyone-bodies-everywhere. I'd lean more towards adding more for doctors to do in the more mild times, not adding more in the panic times. Because let's be honest most people will just clone someone over doing 2 surgeries for revival, it do be just the most effective and faster process. Can't blame people for using it.

When entirety of medbay sticks slimes and vox in cloner, doesn't work, and DNR's them God those are always funny from how painful it is to watch, since the cloner tells you

Even with para's simplicity there's a lot of players, specially many new ones, of which there are often a lot of, that struggle with even our basic system. Many cry about cloning, I played my fair share of medbay, sometimes (see: Midrounds and similar high-amounts of murder) make cloning necessary for an overworked meday. Removing it without anything to replace it would just be a strain on meday and keep a lot of players out of the round permanently past defib timer, since SR'ing everyone isn't all that fun. (Most vox don't get revived if they're past defib, in my experience, because SR-damage surgery is a lot unlike just defib) I'm not all too used to TG but its far more complex than I think would work here, if a chemmaster is difficult to learn I don't think having people learn about concentrations and tons of chem machines/medical hijinks would do much except make medbay a missery for med docs and crew alike That's not to say you can't strive for it though, I'm just saying that its a really big thing to ask and it'd need a lot of rework, attention and detail, or it'd just be an absolute mess. Namely because on an extended or normal tot round medbay won't have many issues, but when a clingtot messy round starts to get out of control they're going to get overwhelmed. While I do love roleplay we're also an MRP server with a lot of newbies - Many of them will not know how to roleplay, and struggle. Not everyone will put up with it if its a thing that is forced for doctors to do with patients, instead of just letting them engage in roleplay if they wish, and doctors can snap back at people for it. Same with making it more difficult, it'll make newbie doctors get snapped at by crewmemebers ICly and OOCly for taking a while or being bad at treating them fast - As we have a lot of action in rounds so people don't want to spend 10 minutes in medbay.

Not going to get too involved in this but to point out: If admin-only clutter was this, we'd have a huge issue. Its not only guns, its: -Clothes, mobs, antags (hi revolution), tools, etc Also before any of this you'd have to talk to the Balance and most likely Design team(s) as giving security a readily available, and seemingly really easy to order concealeable gun would be a vast change of current playstyle, and it'd also need to be tossed with the WT's style where you only order them when HoS/Captain approve and only use them when guns are being allowed to use - It wouldn't really be a sidearm security officers could use anytime early on, since giving sec lethals early is a bad bad bad idea.

For those coming to this suggestion, it is something that was starting to get into the works, but, all help is of course appreciated. @ItsMarmite has made a thread under wiki-development to help named Updating SOP to discuss any issues with it, possible changes, and more. As a footnote to this tiny post, thank you for taking your time to compile such a great post about this, it is greatly appreciated. I hope to see you, and others, in the channel to work together to shape SOP to be better than its current state.

I'm proud to have helped by filling in for Hal Loved the tourny, and we were a great team. Getting bronze was unexpected but really amazing.

As a note on this. As far as I have learnt in my short stay in adminship, magic-turning (wizard poly wand and the like) makes you an antag, however a trader's pill/random pill that turns you into one does not. This would most likely require a head's re-visit to be sure of what I just said, but, please don't take xenomicrobes and take it as 'free xeno hunter antag' to murderbone If you turn yourself into a Nukie/Xeno/Terror/Wizard/Etc lookalike will get you shot since, you can't really ask them if they're nice when they may kill you in 2 seconds while you try to ask.

First, if we write every single possible tiny thing into space law it'd be massive, its already large as is, for a good reason, but more will just make newbies struggle with it, since to play the game they have to read two full documents already (Rules, and kind-of space law if they don't wanna get in IC trouble) Secondly, this is an IC issue of the person. If you were just shot with narcotics by someone, get your ass to medbay, scream in comms about it, report your atacker, and make it a reasonable situation for people to believe you, you won't be brigged. If you got meth'd by someone, why didn't you go to medbay and have it removed from your system, and de-addiction'd in a sleeper? (Yes sleepers remove addictions faster) If a person is having meth-characteristic spasms, and is indeed on psycodelics, they'll get brigged. They're in a professional enviroment, there to work, if they instead spend it high on drugs, they'll get issues. It has characteristic behavior that isn't similar to many other things, and even then, a simple upgraded medscanner that every doctor has can reveal either the contents in their blood, or the addiction. As someone who's played security for a long time, things like this seem clear - Space Law is meant to be used to enforce a safe, professional enviroment on the station, allowing people to be on meth simply by the technicallity that they don't "have" meth on their person, but simply on their system, seems a bit far stretched. If they didn't report a crime if they got forced to take it, nor went to medbay or sought aid, its their fault that they ended in trouble with security once they were found being a disturbance and a bad example.

Much like Flo already said, but I'll point the obvious; Contractors already do half of this. No they don't warn you, but its just a temporary thing, with no stakes. Plenty of people decide to follow or outright accept the contracting for little reason/some TC, despite the fact that being contracted is not something anyone would want at-all, however since it doesn't have any real drawbacks, people do this. Its equivalent to a brig sentence, 3-5 minutes in a small jail, then back to the normal game, with no real issue. Making assassinations like that would, kid you not, people accepting to be 'killed' and brought to medbay for revival for a greentext trade. Alongside the fact that if you only had to kill them once, you'd also have to log and check the person was their murderer, which sounds like a pain to do - If I slap them for 5 brute, then a terror spider kills them a few seconds later in an unrelated fight, does it still count? Etc etc, it sounds really hard to implement, personally. If anything, I'd argue contractors would need more of a tweak rather than assassinations, the objective in in of itself is basic, and self-explanatory, whilst being enough to make people distrust eachother due to the chance that they may very well be after them. There's no need to know you are a target, part of the intrigue is not knowing if you are, being told would remove this, and make it 'duels' like Flo said, and only make people prepare themselves excessively or form protection groups. Because, what stops all people who got this message going in groups of 2-3+ as a way to keep eachother defended within and outside of their department? Makes the antag's job incredibly hard, unfun (Fighting 5 people isn't enjoyable when you need to pick one off) and wouldn't really fit for the playerbase I'd say, with how everything goes. Though as above, contractor might be a better thing to look at to improve, instead of this objective, however I can't really say how since contractor is also one hell of a deep hole to look into. Gimmicks are fun, as someone who's always enjoyed playing them, or nowadays making events with them, they're great, but they have issues - Namely the fact that not everyone enjoys them, not everyone wants them, and forcing them on people certainly wouldn't work. Also the fact that sleepypen, empty the contents, fill it with a deathmix (I am not going to explain it, gamers know how they work) that kills you in roughly 5-10 seconds at most, and that's an assassination done. The person will just get revived and be slightly annoyed, with no impact on the shift barring medbay having one person with poison in them. Defeats the point of 'assassinating' a target if mister Doctor can revive them in a few minutes at most with no drawbacks. No one would fear getting killed by an antag or being a target.

Thing is, the X0-1 isn't the only thing there that would get them perma. Hand-Tele and Vault-Documents are also perma if you rob them, which are two of the "Good" objectives underlined by you, the only would be the "bring target to X" - Although, to chip in, I do vaguely remember there being (Maybe in TG?) a mechanic to plant a bug in an item/room, which could reasonably work for such. And they are. We ain't going to get involved if you hack a medvendor and steal a brute mender. We will, however, get involved when you're a major distraction to security / steal some high-risk item or something that you really shouldn't steal (As a non-antag) Much like above, documents/hand tele would be an issue. It really never is 'random' or done with OOC knowledge. I, much like many others who have played, also see Mr Antag Main wearing a Transilvania Coat in a round with an already confirmed vampire but no one actually bothers them, but when you're a no ID mask-wearing miner in maints, or hacking into a place, security will 'random' or reasonably search you, they don't act on OOC knowledge, the antag just doesn't actually pass off like someone doing their job (And you can always ahelp if they seek you out for some OOC reason, yet they're allowed to just random search depending on alert level/evidence they may have) Security don't... use lethal force against unreasonable things though? If the antagonists falls within the "Lethals Allowed+" class in Space-Law they're allowed to, they don't lethal people who aren't lethalable most if not always, because lethaling 'everyone' because 'muh antag redtext' gets you issues. I do agree it's not the worst idea, but truthfully Traitors always get treated with ease because they always use the same items (S class) which is the class that's outward about it, and I personally don't think sec needs *too* much to bog brig, they're often overworked, and things like Dynamic/More ease using labor-camp would help make this better, however that's just my 50 cents, I'm neither a maint nor a head, which both would really be required to push this through, and would need *massive* work done restructuring and replanning things, at that, however it'd need a ton of planning, which is why I've chipped at some things that could be issues.

To add to Charlie's previous post Alongside that this would impact two things: 1- How do players actually see if someone's self-antagging (And should ahelp them)? The previous objectives are mostly antag objectives or relevant enough to disturb the round, however if say a non-antag clown steals the X-01 then after resisting gets arrested and has no S class and whines about not being a traitor, they're ahelped on suspicion on doing it just to self-antag. As a 'thief' they'd be practically impossible to report from players, making our job (hi) harder since admins cannot pay attention to 100% of the logs and happenings of the round at all times, specially in low admin-numbers. 2- Even if they were added (with all the changes of S-class, C-class, security brigging changes, etc) what would they come from? Traitors? Changelings and Vampires for-sure cannot be 'minor' in much way, the former is a KOS when detected and the latter's abilities are extremely blatant and instant EOC. Traitor... works? But they'd need to either: Take from the current pool of Traitors, or add more on top. Latter would add too many antags, mid/highpop security is already overwhelmed by normal tots (pray for them if they get 3 hijackers in one round/malf AI too) and the former would make rounds far calmer, which people, specially those who like the action and chaos of Paradise, would heavily dislike. Its not really 'LRP' to no-word shoot the murderer. Or if you break into a heavily restricted area, get instantly shot and then talked to. Security and Antagonists roleplay plenty, when its reasonable. Sometimes not as much as they could, sure, but if you're a really obvious Terrorist/Blood-Sucker/Cling with either S-class or abilities known to be of that EOC you're just asking for security to take care of you. Charlie explained it very well on his first post. Antags who haven't been outwardly found will simply be searched/put on monitor/detained for questioning. And if sec cannot pin anything on them, they're released.

I meant for a while :p I might do them later on! Life is just life so I'm sitting on the sideline. I would however suggest, if you're truly looking for a big oppinion of this, possibly poking some of the dev team or a maintainer or somesuch, since they may be able to provide insight I cannot.