VynalDerp

Hmmm. I like the idea of a mobile egg-sac Queen. Maybe we could combine the way CM does it with your idea - have the Queen grow an egg sac (and when she does, allows for egg production), but instead of being immobile, she is capable of moving around albiet with a slowdown like we currently see in-game. Plasma farming is an interesting idea... it's not very lore-accurate though. If the goal is to incentivize Xenos to defend the hive, we can achieve the same goal by allowing hosts to break out of their nest, thus requiring guards to prevent them from causing damage or freeing other hosts. We could also introduce penalties for Xenos when the Queen dies to encourage them to stay with the Queen and defend her from host breakouts/attacks too. A sort of plasma-as-cash system is definitely not something I had even thought of before, though. Changing Plasma to cash would require a complete and total overhaul of a fair bit of Xeno code. As it stands Plasma is a pretty important piece of each Xeno, being what allows them to use abilities and said code is also tied to organs to determine how much Plasma each Xeno has as well as regeneration rate. The current system also lets us hard cap the usage of spells/abilities to prevent them from being spammed the moment they're available (similar to Vampires) for another tool to balance out OP Xenos and underpowered Xenos. I actually like the idea of the Queen being able to spend points or something of the sort on upgrades. Perhaps something like being able to unlock the ability for Tier 1 Xenos to evolve to Tier 2? The more evolution points put into that, the more Xenos of a higher tier the hive can have? For upgrades, it may be best to have them be general upgrades for a particular caste instead of being universal. If you have a lot of drones, or need more building done, upgrade drone movespeed, plasma capacity, etc. Notable that I'm currently planning to not allow any evolutions to be capable of ventcrawling. The general plan is to have Tier 1 Xenos focusing on speed and skirmishing (hit & run tactics) and Tier 2 Xenos being bruisers, capable of going toe to toe with Mechs or multiple crew at a time. Facehuggers are definitely an interesting case. If I recall correctly, sunglasses actually prevent facehuggers from attaching... and in general, masks/headwear makes you pretty much invulnerable to them, requiring Xenos to strip you of your helmet before they can even attach. Reducing the spam is something I've already done by forcing huggers to only be carriable by non-combat classes, so it's also a bit of a risk-reward for Xenos to pull off, and each Xeno is hard limited to 2 facehuggers each. I don't plan on adding Carriers from CM to Para as it would pretty much make combat facehugger spam much worse. We could also take a look at changing the way facehuggers themselves stun targets - maybe it has to take time to knock someone out, giving them an opportunity to take the hugger off if they are quick enough? Would remove the insta-stun and require Xenos to stick with the victim until the facehugger stuns them and they can be sent back to the hive. Ideally, this would let us keep lore-accurate facehuggers and not have BS gameplay relying on insta-stuns. I definitely like the idea of an alternative end goal for Xenos, although it's something that's hard to really nail down. If the goal of the antag isn't tied to the crew suffering in some way, then there's really no incentive for them to fight (see: cortical borers). Also, if the goal is something such as "Evolve to Empress", how should the round be handled past that point? Go to end screen, or let it play out even though Xenos have already achieved their objective? Maybe have it be similar to other antag roles, where they have a list of objectives to achieve to give a bit more direction than simply killing crew. It would be awesome to add in runners as a role, although it would have a conflict of interest with hunters. Hunters are a role designed for capturing isolated hosts throughout the station. If runners do the same without the potential stealth, then generally by the time hunters roll around, crew is sticking together and vents are getting welded. One of the two would definitely need a redesign. New spriting is also a concern, unless it's okay to lift the sprites from someplace like CM (there was a leak of the code 4 or 5 years ago iirc, tons of old and now unused sprites and sounds). And to be honest, I would love to see Predators and Predaliens in Paradise but that would be a completely new can of worms that I don't even know if we want to consider opening at this point lmao. Maybe as an admin-only "ERT" spawn or something. Also, don't feel bad about posting your own ideas! I definitely love the feedback, and new and interesting ideas are exactly what we need for the Rework if we want to get people on board and interested in it. Even if they don't get implemented in some way, they can still influence design & thought by opening new and interesting avenues to explore. Thanks for the feedback :) On the note of a larger team, I'd like to note that I don't have Github premium so I can only make 2 or so people able to contribute through commits. I suppose it can be done through pull requests and the like, although as it stands all of my changes are on a branch and not the main Paradise clone repository. Can't say I've personally done a pull request from a branch, so I don't know how to do it properly... and I'd need to figure out a good way to organize and keep everyone on the team up to date (if it's more than a couple people anyways). If either of you two are game, PM me and I can hook you guys up with some stuff I need some help getting done whenever you're ready/willing to help out. I'll look at reaching out in Discord too. I'll also edit the main post with a link to the Rework's Github branch to see the current changes. It still needs to be updated to the latest Paradise version, but I'm still in the process of backing stuff up incase I mess up the merge. Also set up a HackMD too, and I'll be editing the main post with a link to it as well.

Good point! I didn't really consider hackmd.io. It's not something I've really used before, but I'll check it out and edit my above post with a hackmd link whenever I set it up. I never really cared about google doc doxxing (oh no, my real name, there's only a few thousand other people with it or so haha), but I can see why some ppl might not want to use it. The default speed for non-hunter Xenos is actually the exact same as the normal human walking speed, so all that really needs to be changed (if at all) would be a small increase in speed on weeds (or reduction in speed for humans on weed). I definitely do want to encourage Xenos to weed as much of the map as they can as 1. it's a good indicator for people as to what areas are not vulnerable to Xeno attack and 2. it adds a new and hopefully interesting dynamic to the gameplay. It's an interesting idea to have hunters lose the speed buff when interacting with things... however, it seems complicated to implement. It's definitely food for thought, but hunters could also be balanced by just simply reducing speed (and increasing health if necessary). I'd say the general goal for the caste would be a, well, lone hunter who can pick off single targets. Hunters have a leap ability (practically never used on Para because it's unneeded) that gives them the ability to floor any single target if they can land their leap. Combine it with the hunter being able to stealth, and you've got a great ambush caste even without a ridiculous speed buff. Mechs are another story, though. I've not really thought of using something like resin to slow them down. Mechs are already (generally) slow and Xenos are criminally ineffective at actually damaging them currently. Stacking an effect on mechs is an interesting idea, although with my inexperience in coding I will definitely need help to implement something like that. I've had suggestions to have an acid effect which degrades mech armor the more it is applied as well. I'm leaning more on the side of enabling more damage to be done to mechs as Xenos are already universally faster than the majority of mechs. Traps and doors are a great idea however. I would honestly really like to make it so that mechs cannot pass through xenomorph doors even if they are open, as well as having traps that either ensnare or damage mechs. I'm leaning a little more on the ensnare side for traps, as a big burst of damage from something unseen may be frustrating on the receiving end, but it would definitely need testing. At the moment, I'm looking at making larger, limited castes that act as a Xeno equivalent to a mech, being tankier and dealing more damage towards mechs to give Xenos a reasonable counter to them. It would be both relatively easy to implement and could provide a good solution to mechs without much hassle, although balancing them in a manner which makes them fun to play and fun to fight might be tricky. As it stands, my general plan for acid is to have a weaker acid that can melt smaller or weaker objects over time and a stronger acid which is capable of melting through walls and things. The plan is to make pretty much everything take a long time to melt. Ideally, it would vary based off of the size of the object, but current acid code is an absolute mess and to be honest, it needs to be completely reworked. I'd also like acid to simply not be applicable to items or objects it cannot melt, such as applying weak acid to walls/reinforced walls and such. Adding a weak regen that's buffed when on weeds is definitely on the table. It would prevent a lone Xeno from running completely dry and being helpless if it somehow got cut off from the hive (maybe it's the last one left). While it might be lore-accurate, I don't think it would be very fun for the leftover Xeno(s) after the hive is gone. To be honest, while I appreciate the excitement it will be a while before anything here gets fleshed out. I've considered recruiting a team to work on this as it's quite complicated and I am new(ish) to coding for Byond, but I don't really know how well that's typically received on Paradise or if anyone is willing to contribute.

I do think that humanoids should have to be alive to be infected. If they die mid-gestation of the larva, the larva should stop growing and fail to burst. Requiring the hosts to be alive also gives the hosts the opportunity to fight back and make Xeno life much more difficult. It also gives non-frontline castes (drones/queen) something to do while sentinels/hunters fight. From my experience on CM, this can be very much a fun and interesting mechanic for both Xenos and hosts, although it's difficult to say how this would be received or play on Paradise. CM actually has answers to this solution. The way CM solves it is by having humanoid creatures inside of nests heal at a slow rate, so intense damage will still kill the host (thus, preventing burst) whereas light or medium damage is generally countered by the nest. Dealing stamina damage to a host through a chemical seems like a bad idea - if they have a large buildup of that chemical, they will have next to no chance for recourse once infected and/or nested (either that or the stamina damage will have to be nerfed into near non-existance). This basically never happens on Paradise (due to quick larva gestation time and long nest breakout time), but you can struggle out of nests as with every other binding/buckle situation. It may be better to reserve the chemical for simply minor heals, and be applied either by non-frontline castes (Drones/Queens) or by the nests themselves. Notably, CM also has a feature that allows larva during the final stage of growth to finish growing, even if the host dies. If it's not satisfactory to just simply have a heal, we can have a crack at implementing that too. Also, the answer right now is a focus on stamina damage. In general, Paradise has been moving away from hard stun mechanics and with the Xenomorph rework I very much intend to do the same as much as possible. I just reworked the tackle/disarm chance into dealing stamina damage, and have been tweaking the numbers and testing it. It deals stamina damage based off of how much armor the target is wearing, clamped with the minimum value being 10 (10 hits to floor) and the maximum being 30 (3 hits to floor). Subject to change in the near future. At the moment only chest armor is factored but it may be better to factor in all armor worn. Edit: Soon I'll be going into the neurotoxic spit code to rework it to deal stamina damage (and perhaps test a chemical that deals stamina damage over time).

Hello everyone, I'm finally back. Been through a lot IRL, first my SSD died and my PC was unusable for a few weeks.... then, the day I decided to get back to the rework, I was hospitalized due to a lung collapse. I'm fine now (It was quite a few months ago, so don't worry.) I've got more time on my hands now, so I'm picking back up the Xenomorph project here. I've wrapped up the final bit of the Xenomorph Rework Deisgn Doc, and I'm looking for more feedback/suggestions on it before posting it to the github. It's still a little incomplete, and I may be adding more to it as I continue updating my code. Please leave a comment on it and let me know what you think. The more feedback the better. Thanks! Edit: Commenting and suggestions should be enabled for the doc. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uzpluf2qixaJd1-IM6XPMV5n-pTgphvNGnZG71160jc/edit?usp=sharing

It is. The idea was to send PRs in waves, the first being rebalances, second including some reworks, and so on, but since that idea isn't coming through I will be changing the PR to a WIP one shortly and pushing more changes to it.

Hey, with a number of denials on the PR recently, I've come to ask. Do you guys think it would be a better idea to change the PR to a WIP one and wait until all of the planned features are finished before attempting to merge? A lot of criticism levelled at it is the fact that it doesn't change much. I was hoping for a quick PR to get Xenos played more often for more feedback, but it doesn't seem like that's the case. What are you guys' thoughts on the matter?

I found a good solution just yesterday. Sprites for post-burst already existed, so with some help from Discord we were able to make it so that a bursted sprite applies after you burst, and then disappears whenever you are defibbed. That solution sounds more logical, however it would be a lot more complicated to implement. Now that I actually know how to get rid of an overlay instead of just apply one, that's a great idea to keep in the back of the mind for the future though. Xenos can already build resin walls and membrane windows. I am considering adding doors for xenos too, as it allows xenos to fortify an area much better without sacrificing the ability to move around. Getting them to work properly might be a bit tricky with how access works, though. I actually like the idea for xenos being slower off of weeds, while Crew is slower on weeds. CM has marines move slower on weeds in order to prevent marines from simply wiping xenos out at the start of the round. I believe they used to have Xenos slower off of weeds as well for similar reasons, but last I played on CM, there was no noticeable difference for Xenos on or off of weeds. It's a good idea though. When I played on CM I thoroughly enjoyed using flamethrowers. Giving them an actual purpose versus antags sounds cool, although I don't know if they burn through Xeno weeds. Maybe also let flamethrowers light Xeno walls/doors on fire and burn too. Would give them a genuine purpose versus an antag. I'm not sure how well recieved that would be, though. Flamethrowers are the cause of a pretty insane amount of salt on CM, and all it really takes is one bad flamethrower blast to put you out of the game. How to balance that and make people happy will be a nightmare, but it could be an interesting nightmare nonetheless.

I'll ask it here incase anyone didn't see the PR question or Discord question. I've never messed with Byond sprites before, and the sprite that overlays when you have bursted stays there even after being revived. I'm not sure how to remove it. More importantly. I'm not sure the correct time to remove it, or where in the code that would be best to do - should it be removed whenever you are healed with an automender? Deffibed? Surgery? What does anyone here have to say about it?

Just opened a PR for anyone following this thread. Check it out and give feedback if you can. More changes to come in the future (hopefully). https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/16619

Just did some testing and Hunters go to crit in 4 laser shots, although 3 takes them to only a couple hit points from crit. It takes about 7 or 8 slashes to drop a person into crit, but it frequently takes more than that to floor them, usually reliant on good IB/Bone breaking RNG. This is towards the torso with security armor. Targeting the head just simply took one less swipe. If crew gets an armor and weapons rollout I definitely think Hunters would lag behind and nto really be super useful. That said, the Leap ability is still quite good. Riot shields appeared to have a much higher than 50% chance to block (not 100% confirmed it though), so I reduced the stun taken from hitting riot shields by a couple of seconds. I don't know how to make the stun for each xeno individual at the moment, so I would have to change the stun for all Xenos across the board. At the end of the day that might actually be a smart move, but I think playtesting is necessary on that front to be sure. At the moment, I have refactored the stun to only account for Torso armor, as having it account for all limbs or individual limbs both resulted in broken and easily cheesable solutions. With this, Security armor gives a 60% chance to be sunned while captain's armor gives a 47% to be stunned. I can adjust these values up or down pretty easily too, since what determines it is a multiplier alongside of a min/max value. With my changes, 20% is the minimum value and 60% is the maximum. What's your take on the matter? Also, I have considered a general health buff for Xenos. They are extremely weak and with speed nerfs they could potentially be very easily dealt with by lasers or other high power weapons.

Well, if you check the current and planned changes spoiler section you can see I've already changed the Xeno stuns to be much fairer, and am already planning on removing Xeno gib. Stamina damage sounds interesting but I don't exactly know how stamina damage functions, and no other tackle intent in the game (to my knowledge) uses stamina damage instead of a stun (most tackles use the weaken effect, which may be stamina damage but I am unsure. If it is, then I've changed the code to use Weaken instead of Paralyze effect.) The primary issue from what I understand is the frequency of you getting stunned, that being 100% as it currently is on Paradise right now. I'm still toying with how exactly the mechanic should work, should it factor in all armor, or just the armor of targeted limb? If it's just the targeted limb, then what armors cover limbs? Are they available enough for it to not be imbalanced? I don't know, never played Security so I don't know if Sec armor counts as covering limbs. I don't know if Cargo can reasonably order armor for crew that covers limbs, either. It could be completely broken, and my lack of experience in those departments makes it hard for me to come up with a good solution. I need feedback on my changes too, pls gib. This is a question I don't really have a good answer to. I'm not sure if the speed or raw damage of Xenos is enough to make up for shortcomings in abilities late-round. I would need to play them to be sure. I was considering having the Praetorian be an evolution from Sentinel/Hunter and be a more combat-focused class which is more powerful on the battlefield and could fight a crew armed with lasers and shields, and was either unable to ventcrawl or break vents similar to Brown terrors. I was also considering making the Queen be able to evolve into an Empress with a similar role, albiet maybe a bit more powerful. That said, by the time crew are able to get fully kitted, are there enough xenos for it not to matter? Would they outnumber crew by that point? One of the suggestions I got was to make Xenos overall weaker but simply give them more Xenos, such as multibursts. That way numbers could overcome a late-game crew that's fully kitted out. Personally, I used to play CM quite frequently and the best way I would see Xenos working is via skirmishing with crew. Not taking on 4 or 5 crew at the same time like CM does these days, but more similarly to how they played in the past - there is a general battlefield, and Xenos and crew fight a tug-of-war over it. But, in CM, quickly ventcrawling to get behind enemy lines and wreak havoc wasn't an option. You could sneak past the enemy, but it was hard and extremely risky, often taking a lot of time. Compare this to Paradise where there are vents pretty much everywhere that Xenos can use to flee, and possibly even take a short space walk to get away. Would such a strategy work, and if so, what would be the best way to implement it? All Xenos can vore people and regurgitate them. Drones can melt adjacent items and people alongside of Sentinel as well. Can possibly change that in the rework though.

Heyo! I've started some basic work on a rework for Xenomorphs. I thoroughly enjoy the setting, and enjoy other servers with Xenomorphs like CM. Was sad to see them not in Paradise. Since they're still in the code, I've decided to learn coding SS13 and see if I can eventually get them reintroduced as antags. I'm also posting this to get feedback on the sort of changes I've made to Xenomorphs so far. One problem. Uh, I've never played as them before. What's broken about them? What sort of fixes would you propose? Are Xenos unrecoverably broken? Do you have any ideas on how they should function in-game (Stealth playstyle or loud)? Are you attracted to the Queen? I've also made a discord thread to discuss this sort of thing as well if you wish to stop by it and see what sort of things people have been discussing. It's in the #spacestation_13 channel. I'll also be keeping an updated list of changes, current, planned, and possibly also dropped changes here in spoilers for quick reference. May add these to a google doc once I get a more refined idea as to what exactly the best overarching design philosophy to gear Xenos toward should be. Github: https://github.com/VynalDerp/Paradise/tree/Xenomorph-Reowrk Google Design Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Uzpluf2qixaJd1-IM6XPMV5n-pTgphvNGnZG71160jc/edit?usp=sharing HackMD Design Doc: https://hackmd.io/@VynalDerp/rJBVbg6Z9 Current Changes Planned Changes Suggested Changes Edit: I've opened a PR for my changes. It can be found here: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/16619 Edit edit: PR close for now.