Chems Fridge Access

[ZN23X]

Another thread made me think of one of the greatest flaws in Medbay that promotes powergaming. Why is it that ANYONE has access to the chems fridge? As long as the fridge is stocked, it allows anyone to come in Medbay and completely bypass doctors to heal anything aside from complex things that meds alone can't fix. I think it should be like the Nanomeds(son) and only people with medical access should be able to use it.

Maybe even just putting the chems fridge in a room that only medical has access to. Move it up to where one of the pill bottle lockers is. Or the "medbay locker room" right behind the reception desk. That way in EXTREME emergencies the CMO can give the door(s) emergency access so anyone can use it, but it would put the fridge in a more secure location under normal circumstances.

I feel this change would reduce powergaming and allow for more RP opportunities...and make less doctors go SSD because they are bored or aggravated that everyone is doing thier job for them.

[EvadableMoxie]

I didn't even realize everyone had access.  Why aren't antags carrying SR to gib their murder victims? Instant easy cloning prevention.

Anyway, a big part of the problem is the fact that you could literally dump out the entire fridge and apply every patch and take every pill and you'd be fine. Maybe mute, but that's it.   Do that on CM or Baystation and you'd be dead from OD pretty quickly.  People who don't know what they are doing just shoving random pills into their mouths should really face repercussions from that. 

I know we used to use the same chems CM and Baystation do and switched over sometime before I started playing, but it seems to me the old chems were a lot better because they forced you to actually think before you just shoved someone into a sleeper and hit every button.

[Tayswift]

17 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Why aren't antags carrying SR to gib their murder victims?

I think cause there's a 50-80% chance CMO doesn't know how to make it/donate their omnizine.

Agree with this. Hate when the synthflesh stockpile gets wasted when cryo cells are right there. Like seriously we need those to SR people!

[TheDemonic]

I agree, only medical staff should have access, but I think it should be fairly easy to get into, i don't want to go hunting around for the rarest piece of equipment to unlock it in the most dire moments.

[ZN23X]

33 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Why aren't antags carrying SR to gib their murder victims? Instant easy cloning prevention.

Wasnt my intention to promote powergaming when posting this. Thanks for giving everyone the idea ???

[EvadableMoxie]

15 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Wasnt my intention to promote powergaming when posting this. Thanks for giving everyone the idea ???

Sometimes the best way to get things nerfed is to prove you're right by abusing the hell out of it (Within the rules, of course). You see antags exploding corpses every round and I bet you a PR will go up to restrict access to the chem locker pretty damn quick.

I actually dislike SR quite a bit, in pretty much every way it's designed, including it's potential to be weaponized. I'd get rid of SR entirely and add a surgical procedure to apply Mitocholide to the heart to reset the defib timer, if it were up to me. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by EvadableMoxie

[ZN23X]

1 minute ago, EvadableMoxie said:

I actually dislike SR quite a bit

I agree with this as well but that's a whole nother battle lol

[Tayswift]

1 hour ago, EvadableMoxie said:

I'd get rid of SR entirely and add a surgical procedure to apply Mitocholide to the heart to reset the defib timer, if it were up to me.

That's a really cool idea. Right now it's a little unintuitive because it says there's too much damage to heart tissue to defib, but it's only tied to a timer rather than to the damage of the heart. In fact, you can defib someone with a dead heart right now and it's totally fine. It'd be cool if the heart took damage when oxygen deprived and this process occurred dynamically.

I think cloning could be removed, too, if this was added to the game. Cloning would be too appealing as a fire and forget option for reviving people. Removing SR and cloning and moving this to surgery would incentivize medbay to help heal patients rather than wait for them to die and clone them. If cloning and SR were removed though I'd think that the heart should stop taking damage before totally dead so you can use a trauma kit rather than have to use mitochlide to restore it. Worst case, you'd still be able to transplant the brain.

[EvadableMoxie]

4 minutes ago, Tayswift said:

I think cloning could be removed, too, if this was added to the game. Cloning would be too appealing as a fire and forget option for reviving people. Removing SR and cloning and moving this to surgery would incentivize medbay to help heal patients rather than wait for them to die and clone them. If cloning and SR were removed though I'd think that the heart should stop taking damage before totally dead so you can use a trauma kit rather than have to use mitochlide to restore it. Worst case, you'd still be able to transplant the brain.

I don't think Cloning will ever get removed, and it's perhaps a bit too much of an extreme step to go from what we have now to no cloning at all.  I wouldn't mind some nerfs to make cloning more of an ordeal, though. Perhaps a chance for the cloner to mess up and have the person be missing a limb or organ or two. Or just something so actual medical attention is needed.

Upgraded cloners really need a nerf, though. Being able to just hop into the cloner for a split second on your own and then have an auto-revive that brings you back 100% healthy without even genetic damage is too much, I think. 

Another option would be to make Biomass more difficult to get. If it was a limited resource you might need to make some tough decisions about who gets cloned and who doesn't.

[owenowen101]

It sounds fine in theory to restrict medicine distribution to doctors only but all-access to the chem fridge is simply a quality of life feature. Though some people may be fascinated by giving a 5 minute long explanation to a newbie doctor on how you need him or her to get you some mannitol because you can't stop saying things like 'LOL2CAT', personally in a situation such as that I'd much prefer to be able to self-medicate. That isn't to say I am unwilling to help new players, but sometimes you're in an urgent situation.

The fact is if you're being seen to by a competent doctor, they'll be giving you the correct medicine anyway. As part of the MRP nature of Paradise, we don't have rules against false-ignorance when it comes to knowing job-specific information, people are able to self-medicate and to treat others and are allowed to know how to. This isn't to say that I would barge into medbay and do everything for myself, but having the ability to do so in the presence of total incompetence, as is not uncommon in medbay, is a great relief to me and a great boon to expediency, when its required.

Having said all that, I much prefer the idea of stricter overdose limits and some moderately harsh penalties for OD'ing on regular healing meds. To me this seems a more natural solution to both; people necking all the meds in the fridge in one go and also to limiting the self-service approach that you frown upon, as people will be more cautious about how much of each medicine they should be consuming. Though this change itself would bring with it its own implications for needing more consistently a competent chemistry team, which as it is, isn't all that common either.

Edited May 4, 2017 by owenowen101

[EvadableMoxie]

19 minutes ago, owenowen101 said:

It sounds fine in theory to restrict medicine distribution to doctors only but all-access to the chem fridge is simply a quality of life feature. Though some people may be fascinated by giving a 5 minute long explanation to a newbie doctor on how you need him or her to get you some mannitol because you can't stop saying things like 'LOL2CAT', personally in a situation such as that I'd much prefer to be able to self-medicate. That isn't to say I am unwilling to help new players, but sometimes you're in an urgent situation.

 

I understand the concern there, but you could apply that same reasoning to insist people should have access to anything. What if there is a hull breach in Medical? That's an urgent situation.  Why can't I waltz into engineering and take their stuff and fix the hole myself? Why can't Medbay do it's own research to upgrade it's own sleepers if science is being stupid? Why can't science just go down to the mining asteroid and mine themselves if the miners aren't doing it? If Cargo stucks, why can't I just walk in and use the computer to approve my own orders?

The entire point of SS13 is the forced co-operation.  You shouldn't be able to just walk into a department and do someone elses job if they are incompetent.  You always have options to get around an incompetent department. You could find someone with medical access to help. A roboticst could fix your brain damage surgically.  Botany might be able to make plants to help.  Science could make Mannitol, if they wanted to. Maybe the Brig Physician has his own stash.

I don't like this idea of "I need to be able to do ______, because what is ______ department is incompetent?"  Then, you overcome it.  You don't get to just waltz in and do it yourself. 

[owenowen101]

21 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

I understand the concern there, but you could apply that same reasoning to insist people should have access to anything. What if there is a hull breach in Medical? That's an urgent situation.  Why can't I waltz into engineering and take their stuff and fix the hole myself? Why can't Medbay do it's own research to upgrade it's own sleepers if science is being stupid? Why can't science just go down to the mining asteroid and mine themselves if the miners aren't doing it? If Cargo stucks, why can't I just walk in and use the computer to approve my own orders?

I agree that there is a limit and perhaps I should have outlined a little more clearly what I consider urgent. I would define it in this instance as something that would require quick to immediate action to either save your own or somebody elses life or for the greater good of someones' gameplay experience. Now I understand that that latter part is subjective so by that I mean if, for example, someone is dead in medbay and nobody is willing to or knows how to attend to them, patching them up or putting them in the cloner I would consider acceptable. I think it'd be little consolation to somebody who is eager to rejoin the round, having died, knowing that although someone could revive them, they don't want to because they'd rather let the person wanting to rejoin the round sit on their hands, bored, whilst medbay fumbles around.

This isn't the same as hopping the desk into cargo and printing some welders because the techs are in the back room eating pizza or even breaking into engineering to get materials to fix a hull breach. Both of these, even the latter, I would not consider urgent (especially with LINDA) to the point where it would be necessary to go over the heads of the respective department. The point at which a situation is actually 'urgent', it would not be possible to find an alternative as you have suggested, such as going to science and banging on the window until they open the shutters, asking for mannitol, then having the shutters closed on you again.

Joking aside, for me when it comes to preserving the continued existance of myself or others within the round, even if it as the cost of going over an inexperienced or incompetent doctor's head, then it is justified as being for the greater enjoyment of the greatest number of people.

Edited May 4, 2017 by owenowen101

[EvadableMoxie]

Just now, owenowen101 said:

Joking aside, for me when it comes to preserving the continued existance of myself or others within the round, even if it as the cost of going over an inexperienced or incompetent doctor's head, then it is for the greater enjoyment of the greatest number of people.

Of course you want to do that in game, but when we outside the game talking design, we don't design in order to help ourselves never die. We choose to place obstacles and dangers into the game to make it interesting.  I'm saying that the risk of an incompetent Medbay is a vital part of the gameplay experience.

Yes, having an incompetent Medbay is a threat your character and it should be. It should be something that makes people say Oh shit, we don't have competent Doctors, this a major problem we need to fix.  Not We don't have competent doctors but that's okay because I can just do everything myself.

[owenowen101]

Just now, EvadableMoxie said:

Of course you want to do that in game, but when we outside the game talking design, we don't design in order to help ourselves never die. We choose to place obstacles and dangers into the game to make it interesting.  I'm saying that the risk of an incompetent Medbay is a vital part of the gameplay experience.

Yes, having an incompetent Medbay is a threat your character and it should be. It should be something that makes people say Oh shit, we don't have competent Doctors, this a major problem we need to fix.  Not We don't have competent doctors but that's okay because I can just do everything myself.

Challenges are of course necessary in making an exciting game, but again, I don't think many people sit there in dead chat, their body rotting in medbay, thinking "Gosh isn't this fantastic? My body has been mouldy for 10 minutes now, and nobody knows how to revive me! Cor I'd love to get back to playing space station 13 but I'm enjoying the ineptitude of medbay too much."

Medbay can be bad and this adds to the fun and chaotic atmosphere that SS13 is known for, but when they're so bad to the point that people aren't able to continue playing the game because the bodies are piling up and nobody wants to/knows how to deal with them, then nobody is really having fun and thats ultimately what we're all playing this game to have, some fun.

If you get satisfaction out of and enjoy being a victim of incompetance or lack of knowledge without the prospect of anyone else being able to help you, then fair play to you, but I suspect many others don't enjoy being in that position.

[ZN23X]

I don't know how this devolved to resulting in piles of bodies in Medbay. This sometimes happens even with the chems fridge where it's currently located, with everyone having access to it, when it's well stocked. It doesn't make sense to argue that restricting the chems fridge would cause this to happen when it already happens with an unrestricted fridge. At times the station is so chaotic that an overwhelming amount of bodies piles up regardless of how competent or incompetent Medbay is.

Everyone dies, sometimes early, sometimes unfairly, and sometimes you cannot be brought back for one reason or another.

[Tayswift]

Tetra stole the words out of my mouth. More often than not, medbay piles up with bodies because people steal the synthflesh out of the fridge so we can't SR people without gibbing them.

I really hate the mentality many players have where they try to barge into medbay and do everything themselves, often incompetently, because they assume they're better than the doctors there. I remember once as CMO, there was a robotocist and a sec officer trying to interfere with a routine blood transfer + internal bleeding surgery. The roboticist bumping into me all the time kept interrupting my attempts to inject epinephrine to prevent the patient from dying from blood loss, and the sec officer eventually stun batoned and cuffed me after I tried to kick the robotocist out of the operating room. Of course the patient on the operating table died. Eventually I got out of the cuffs and managed to telebaton the officer and kick him out of medbay, but what was a simple procedure turned into a 10+ minute ordeal.

[owenowen101]

20 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

I don't know how this devolved to resulting in piles of bodies in Medbay. This sometimes happens even with the chems fridge where it's currently located, with everyone having access to it, when it's well stocked. It doesn't make sense to argue that restricting the chems fridge would cause this to happen when it already happens with an unrestricted fridge. At times the station is so chaotic that an overwhelming amount of bodies piles up regardless of how competent or incompetent Medbay is.

Everyone dies, sometimes early, sometimes unfairly, and sometimes you cannot be brought back for one reason or another.

I think the conversation evolved into something along the lines of  'how far do we go with allowing people the ability to do other people's job and in what circumstances?'. Of course medbay can get overwhelmed as it is but restricting access to the chem fridge is only going to make it more difficult to deal with.

Quote

Everyone dies, sometimes early, sometimes unfairly, and sometimes you cannot be brought back for one reason or another.

The reason being perhaps that you can't get to the chem fridge.

9 minutes ago, Tayswift said:

medbay piles up with bodies because people steal the synthflesh out of the fridge so we can't SR people without gibbing them.

This is definitely an issue but more often than not, its the doctors themselves who take all the synthflesh patches or hand them out like sweets to people with a few points of damage.

9 minutes ago, Tayswift said:

the sec officer eventually stun batoned and cuffed me after I tried to kick the robotocist out of the operating room. Of course the patient on the operating table died.

This is just ridiculous and exceptionally poor behaviour. If there are sufficiently competent medical staff available then people shouldn't be doing anything at all, let alone a roboticist insisting on being the one to do a procedure in medbay.

Edited May 4, 2017 by owenowen101

[Kyet]

Much of the time, medical is incompetent, absent, busy, or played by very new players who have no idea what they're doing. Sometimes several of the above.

Even when they aren't, they are often very slow to respond.

In an emergency, anyone can grab some metal and patch a hole, or haul a crate, or disarm the psycho killer. I see no reason that we should prohibit people from taking medicine that could save their lives from the fridge, given that they're already in medbay.

Even if you limited this, all that would happen is that people threw themselves in medical cryo instead, which is a *bigger* waste of resources than people taking things from the fridge.

If you're a doctor who wants to stop patients bypassing you, then act like a head of staff who wants to be listened to. Don't just hang back, waiting for someone to call you - because nobody ever will. Get out front. Talk to people. Understand what is going on. Take proactive steps. If people see that you're on top of things, they'll be a lot more willing to ask you for help, and less prone to writing you off and taking matters into their own hands.

Edited May 4, 2017 by tzo

[EvadableMoxie]

2 hours ago, tzo said:

Even if you limited this, all that would happen is that people threw themselves in medical cryo instead, which is a *bigger* waste of resources than people taking things from the fridge.

It would actually be much better for Medbay if people self-medicated with Cryo and not meds from the fridge.

Cryox restores 12 Burn/Brute per tick with a 0.4 metabolism rate, which is 30 Brute/Burn per unit. On top of that, Cryotubes inject 10x as many reagents as you put in, making whatever you put in 10x as efficient as it would normally be.  For example, if you loaded a beaker with 1 unit of Cryox into the tube and then waiting for it to empty and scanned the person, you'd see just under 10 units in their system. This means that when you are using a Cryotube, 1 unit of Cryo will heal 300 burn/brute damage.

Of course, that's not being fair since you can't actually have that much damage and still be alive, and Cryox doesn't work on the dead.  Also, unless you actually empty all but 1 unit from the beaker, it will inject at least 2 units into patients deep in crit since it doesn't stop injecting until they are at 100%.

But either way you slice it, it is always far more wasteful to use medicine from the fridge while in Medbay than it is to throw yourself into Cryo, regardless of the amount of damage you have. 

3 hours ago, tzo said:

In an emergency, anyone can grab some metal and patch a hole, or haul a crate, or disarm the psycho killer. I see no reason that we should prohibit people from taking medicine that could save their lives from the fridge, given that they're already in medbay.

Yes, but they may not have access to get those things.  We aren't saying people shouldn't be able to use medication, we are talking about restricting access.  No other department allows civilians to walk in and take their resources. Why is every other department allowed to secure it's resources but Medbay isn't? 

[ZN23X]

Alright I'll be proactive. Instead of addressing one of the issues that leads to powergaming we are yet again forced to fight fire with fire. Any time I work Medbay I'll just grab the wrench from cryo, move the fridge into the medical supplies room and patch the hole in the wall with metal from some of the chairs lying around. If anyone breaks into the room I'll report them to sec for B&E, trespassing, and petty theft (oddly petty theft under space law shows someone stealing meds from this exact room). They'll get 20-30 in the brig and people will learn to live with it. I suggest anyone here who shares my view does the same.

[owenowen101]

10 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Alright I'll be proactive. Instead of addressing one of the issues that leads to powergaming we are yet again forced to fight fire with fire. Any time I work Medbay I'll just grab the wrench from cryo, move the fridge into the medical supplies room and patch the hole in the wall with metal from some of the chairs lying around. If anyone breaks into the room I'll report them to sec for B&E, trespassing, and petty theft (oddly petty theft under space law shows someone stealing meds from this exact room). They'll get 20-30 in the brig and people will learn to live with it. I suggest anyone here who shares my view does the same.

:salt:

[Birdtalon]

29 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Alright I'll be proactive. Instead of addressing one of the issues that leads to powergaming we are yet again forced to fight fire with fire. Any time I work Medbay I'll just grab the wrench from cryo, move the fridge into the medical supplies room and patch the hole in the wall with metal from some of the chairs lying around. If anyone breaks into the room I'll report them to sec for B&E, trespassing, and petty theft (oddly petty theft under space law shows someone stealing meds from this exact room). They'll get 20-30 in the brig and people will learn to live with it. I suggest anyone here who shares my view does the same.

Go for it I'll just slip you and throw you into the door for access. No problem my friend.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Birdtalon

[ZN23X]

2 hours ago, Birdtalon said:

Go for it I'll just slip you and throw you into the door for access. No problem my friend.

I am okay with this because you'll at least need to locate someone with medical access and you'll sort of be asking them for help...even if it's with a banana or some other slipping device. Realistically my ultimate goal here is to force more player interaction so this counts lol

Edited May 4, 2017 by ZN23X

[Landerlow]

ZN23X I approve of this. The other day I heard the CMO criticizing (and rightly so!) a person by saying  ..."Do you have a degree in medicine now?" " Do you want me to give you an operathing theatre as well?"  (..response from person) .. " Shall I give the the CMO position since we're at it?"  

 

I am TIRED of people running into med bay, or a clown telling me what I need to do to cure him, like seriously, why ARE you even in here with me if you can do it all yourself? Might as well put the fridge outside in the corridor with the current attitude of a lot of players.

Yes I know, much salt but it's the truth.

[EvadableMoxie]

1 hour ago, Vladimir Lukowsky said:

I am TIRED of people running into med bay, or a clown telling me what I need to do to cure him, like seriously, why ARE you even in here with me if you can do it all yourself? Might as well put the fridge outside in the corridor with the current attitude of a lot of players.

Yes I know, much salt but it's the truth.

Preach it.

I think part of the reason why people think all doctors are incompetent is because people don't know what competence looks like.

I recall one time when I got a corpse in with 250 damage and I started using truama kits and patches to get them below 180 and a fellow doctor started actually insulting me and calling me an idiot for wasting medicine on a corpse.  And no, he didn't apologize after I revived the person in front of him.

Often there are multiple treatment options and whenever you use one, invariably someone will question you on why you didn't use another.

I've also been questioned for reviving people with 20-30% blood and IB (I was resetting the defib timer), Putting people into sleepers 'for no reason' (Clearing addiction), 'Ignoring' injured people (Treating a more serious case first, because triage is a thing), and many other things.