Give medical Cyborgs 4 "hands".

[Varlun]

I doubt you'd be able to code it to be for medical cyborgs specifically, as I can definitely see balance concerns if this were to apply to security borgs. But as far as medical borgs, the amount of times I've had to switch stuff out in my "hands" is really annoying and slows me down a LOT. I typically keep the health scanner, cyborg hypospray, and defib paddles on the bar. If I need to heal someone up a touch with a trauma kit, because they're too damaged to be revived, I have to swap out something for the trauma kit. If I need to put someone on a roller bed because they have broken bones for transport, I have to swap. If I need to pull out the nanite paste to repair someone's robotic parts, I have to swap. A 4th module slot would be so very much appreciated.

[GunDOS]

The reason cyborgs have three "hands" is for that reason. It's for balance, it purposefully stops a Borg from being a super doc. Trust me, I know how annoying it is. But it's there for a reason.

[Varlun]

Medical borgs are SUPPOSED to be super doctors, dude. They give up so much in order to excel at a specific role. An extra hand is not a big deal, it's just convenience.

[GunDOS]

Borgs are supposed to assist there respective departments, not do there jobs. Again, it's inconvenient for a balance reason.

[Varlun]

And I am saying that your idea of balance is wrong. The fuck do you mean they aren't supposed to do their jobs? Of course they are! That's what they're there for! I'm going to assume you meant they aren't supposed to do such a good job that noone else is needed. First of all that's impossible, I as a borg can only be one place at once, I can only drag one person at a time. When shit really hits the fan, I need help. Second of all, having an extra hand is literally just going to save me the frustration of having to micromanage my fucking module choices. It's not going to make me overpowered. I will pretty much be just as effective as before, just with a few less seconds delay here and there. To be clear, I'm not attacking you, sorry for the language, I'm just being expressive.

[GunDOS]

No worries.

Medical cyborgs are an amazing asset to medical. Having one on hand makes life so much simpler, as you can have one in reception doing triage or have it go to surgery if a doctor is unavailable. Borgs are a "Jack of all trades master of none" race, adding another hand makes them even stronger. The micromanaging you were talking about is part of what makes a Borg, well a Borg.

To clarify my point, Medical borgs are there to assist medical not be a full doctor or a full surgeon. That's the way it has always been. It may be wrong, maybe the majority of the community may disagree with that. But that's something that affects the direction of the server, and is waaaaaay above my pay grade. 

[Varlun]

Your point is completely invalid, because adding an extra module slot doesn't give them ANY extra abilities. It will not magically make them able to be a "full doctor" or "full surgeon". It won't make them able to connect an IV to a patient, or feed them pills. NO FUNCTIONALITY IS GAINED AT ALL. Merely convenience. Hell, if I truly had it my way, there'd be a hotkey and/or a UI button for every single tool the borg has. Rather than having any module slots at all, you know how you click the thing to bring up the module choices? You would just be able to click on those choices and instantly use them. So basically you would have as many "hands" as you have modules. AND WOULDN'T THAT MAKE SENSE? Why WOULDN'T a medical cyborg, if it were in real life, be this crazy-looking contraption with all kinds of arms and whatnot, whatever it needs to do it has it. Think of the interrogation probe from Star Wars... etc etc. But I'm not even asking for all that. I would just really appreciate a fourth hand. A fifth would be nice, but merely having a fourth would save me a WORLD of trouble. In addition to my current standard loadout of health scanner, hypospray, and defib, I would add the trauma kit to the last slot. That's the most common fourth module I have to use. After that is a close tie between the roller bed and the nanite repair thing. So occasionally I would have to swap out the trauma kit for a roller bed or nanite paste, but it wouldn't be NEARLY as often as I'm having to swap right now.

Let me clarify EXACTLY what my frustration is. This EXACT scenario happens CONSTANTLY. I encounter a corpse. I try to defib. That's one slot used. Sometimes, it will tell me the damage is too high for them to be revived. So I use the health scanner to see their damage and determine where I need to heal. That's two slots used. And then I need to use the trauma kit to patch up a spot or two so they can be revived. That's three slots used. But don't forget, as soon as they're revived, you're going to want to give them a dose or two of Epinephrine, so they can be stable for the trip to medbay. That's four items used. Oh but don't forget, a lot of times they'll have fractures, and you can't just pull them on the ground or you'll damage them even worse, so you'll need to put down a roller bed. That's five items used. So by giving me a fourth hand, you'll reducing the number of swaps I need to make to get the job done, from 2, to 1. It's NOT that big a deal, it would just make it less of a micromanagey pain in the ass. I really can't see many people having a problem with this, ESPECIALLY if it's limited to medical borg specifically.

The one thing I will admit, is the case where you have rogue medical borgs. However, even in that situation, it wouldn't really change anything. When you're a rogue mediborg you pretty much just need 3 modules: nanite paste, flash, and the saw. The addition of any other module they have would not assist them in a combat situation.

[GunDOS]

Alright.

A Borg is designed mechanically to be inconvenient in that way, its there purposefully to stop you from defibbing very fast. I realise that's inconvenient, but this is a multiplayer video game. It needs to make sense gameplay wise, it was I assume a conscious choice when we first implemented Borgs for it to work that way. It's to I believe make borgs harder.

I disagree that giving them an extra slot doesn't give them any extra abilities. It allows me to say, carry both my brute and burn kits, my hypo and my scanner all at once. Allowing me to, with very little effort heal someone very fast. Granted you can do the same with three, but the added "micromanaging" as you said slows down the process.

[Varlun]

First of all, Borgs don't even have burn kits. Unless I've somehow missed that this entire time. Makes me wonder why they don't, it'd be handy.

I think you give the original creators too much credit. By your logic, nothing would ever change because it was all made as it was intended the first time. But no, things change constantly. Some things get nerfs, some get buffs. It's all up in the air. So if your only logic at this point is that it's supposed to be that way because that's how it currently is, then I'm not buying it. I think my argument is extremely solid. Again, I doubt many people will actually stand up and protest the idea of me having to make a few less clicks. I can almost guarantee you, it was never a decision made by the developers of this server, to give borgs 3 slots. I bet that's just how it's always been, and noone's ever bothered to change it, probably because it would be something of a pain in the ass to code. Furthermore, I know it would be an extra pain in the ass, if not impossible, to make it so that ONLY the medical borg gets 4 slots.

You are exaggerating the effect the extra slot would have. "very little effort" and "very fast". No. We are talking about a couple seconds difference, PER PATIENT. But this would add up as a whole, to make the entire experience less frustrating. I almost can't believe that you're arguing against me being able to follow up a revive with an Epinephrine shot, in literally a second or two less time.

I just thought of an alternative idea which would achieve my desired effect. Instead of a fourth slot, make the health scanner BUILT IN to the actual borg. So rather than it being a module, just have it be default active all the time. So that if we click on someone with no module selected, boom it'll give us a readout just as if we had used the scanner. To be honest, I think I'm actually more in favor of this idea.

[GunDOS]

3 minutes ago, Varlun said:

I just thought of an alternative idea which would achieve my desired effect. Instead of a fourth slot, make the health scanner BUILT IN to the actual borg. So rather than it being a module, just have it be default active all the time. So that if we click on someone with no module selected, boom it'll give us a readout just as if we had used the scanner. To be honest, I think I'm actually more in favor of this idea.

I actually really like this idea it makes a lot of sense.

From knowing the various people who have made and added and changed this amazing game. I don't think you can give them enough credit, I also never said that it couldn't be changed. This is an open source game, so of course everything is "up in the air". Also those extra seconds add up, and in my opinion that frustration and need to micromanage is what makes Borgs what they are.

[Varlun]

You're literally arguing for "frustration" being a necessity. You realize frustration is the antithesis of fun, right? I just don't understand how you can sit here and use that as your logic.

Anyway, I think I should start a new thread for that built-in scanner idea. It would probably be leagues easier to code, anyway.

[Varlun]

 

[Dracarus]

On 06/05/2017 at 9:36 PM, Varlun said:

Medical borgs are SUPPOSED to be super doctors, dude. They give up so much in order to excel at a specific role. An extra hand is not a big deal, it's just convenience.

and some med borgs have four arms, why did they have only three slots?

[necaladun]

Med borgs are not supposed to be super doctors. They're meant to be...medical borgs, surprisingly. 

 

As for one of the sprites having four arms, well, by that logic different sprites would need different amount of slots and some borgs would have 0 slots. Also 3 arms would look weird and unbalanced.

 

 

[Varlun]

1 minute ago, necaladun said:

Med borgs are not supposed to be super doctors. They're meant to be...medical borgs, surprisingly. 

 

As for one of the sprites having four arms, well, by that logic different sprites would need different amount of slots and some borgs would have 0 slots. Also 3 arms would look weird and unbalanced.

 

 

Based on the "thumbs up" on my post you mentioned, most people think otherwise.

[necaladun]

Three reputation points is really not "most people". It's...3% of the players on the server right now.  Sure, 3 people (4, including you), might want that, but it's not what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to be medical capable borgs, and they're working as intended. They have a heap of advantages over regular doctors, but are not meant to be able to run medbay without the assistance of non-borgs. The intent is for them to be assistants with the abilities of borgs, not super doctors.

[Varlun]

51 minutes ago, necaladun said:

Three reputation points is really not "most people". It's...3% of the players on the server right now.  Sure, 3 people (4, including you), might want that, but it's not what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to be medical capable borgs, and they're working as intended. They have a heap of advantages over regular doctors, but are not meant to be able to run medbay without the assistance of non-borgs. The intent is for them to be assistants with the abilities of borgs, not super doctors.

You are skewing results in your favor. You mention server population, which would only be relevant if every single one of them actually used and voted on the forums. You are using the non-voters to your favor. Not cool. I wish these forums actually had a "thumbs down" option, and that we could see the values of both (not the difference), so that would at least be a good read of how the forum base thinks. Because as it stands we can't really tell how many people are AGAINST my idea, besides looking at posts which speak against it and seeing how many thumbs up they get. Which currently, I believe is none. So, again, it seems people are on my side of the argument.

At any rate, I'll say it again: I'm no longer pushing for medical cyborgs to get 4 module slots. My new idea is to instead have the health scanner built in, which would free up the need to use a slot for it. Problem solved. My post in that thread has a fair amount of thumbs up. And noone has said anything against it.

[necaladun]

...I'm not at all. I'm saying, 3 rep points on the forum is not most people for any group larger than 5. 7 if you include yourself. This is not at all representative of the playerbase, or anything more than a few people.

Rep points aren't even votes, that's what polls are for - and see my post regarding polls. Raw numbers of people for and against things are not how we run things here - this is not a democracy. 

There's also the fact they're wrong (If thats the part they're agreeing with). Even if 1000 people said they're supposed to be super doctors, they're wrong. What med borgs are supposed to be is something I'm intimately aware of, as one of the people who define and choose what they're supposed to be, and have discussed at length with the others who make such decisions. Trust me when I say they are not supposed to be super doctors.

Now, if you want to make the argument they should be, that's something else entirely.

 

[Varlun]

So what the hell is the point of us making these threads and trying to suggest things, if you're just going to brush them off, even if they appear to have majority support, just because you disagree with them?

[necaladun]

Ideas and suggestions are judged on their merits. The forum is a good place to flesh the ideas out, discuss the pros and cons, and get feedback from the admins as to why something does or doesn't fit the vision we have for the server. Suggestions that the admins disagree with aren't going to get put in, even with large support, because we're not attempting to appeal to everyone, or even the greatest number of people. Even if a "majority" of people supported us turning into an ERP MLP server, it's not gonna happen. 

The feedback of the players is considered, but we're more interested in arguments for and against things than raw votes. 

Then of course there's the issue of defining what a "majority" is, whether you mean of admins, of forum goers, of people who play on the server "regularly", etc. 

[Varlun]

I understand it's not a democracy, and I understand actually looking at the merits of an argument, however I disagree about ignoring the majority just because you disagree with them. Your example of people wanting an ERP MLP server is invalid, because obviously the majority will never want that. But if they ACTUALLY DID want that- who are you to say no? Just because you're an admin, why does that magically give your opinion more value than everyone else? The point of the server is to entertain people, to provide them with something they want to do. Now, I do understand wanting a general vision for the server, and that change specifically would be very drastic indeed. But if the real majority of people genuinely wanted that, then I feel you are obligated to oblidge. Regardless, this goes back to what I said about that point being invalid. The majority of people will most likely never want that, because it's a pretty terrible idea. This in fact furthers my argument. If the vast majority sways one way or another, that's a pretty good indicator of if the idea is good or not. In this case, the majority is against, because that is indeed a terrible idea. Now apply this to my idea. Most people seem to be for it, which is probably a pretty good indicator that it's a good idea.

On the topic of actual votes/thumbs up, I understand that they don't tell you much besides how many people agree or disagree- however, how much do you actually want us to type out before you'll be satisfied? Our goal should not be to convince you, the admins. It should be to convince the majority. Admins gets 1 vote, just like everyone else. Now I do not strictly mean 1 vote, because that would be a democracy, I'm just saying your opinion should be worth just as much as ours. Back to my point: How much do you want us to type out? Do you really need us to write out an entire essay in an effort to actually convince you, the almighty admins? If what we wrote was good enough to convince the majority, then I say that is damn well good enough. If someone doesn't put very much effort into their post, and the majority disagrees, then that's that. Maybe they should put more effort in being more detailed, discussing it, and trying to convince more people. But some ideas are so simple that you don't need to go to great lengths to get the point across. You say what needs to be said and people agree or disagree. Now maybe I'm going off on a random tangent, because you didn't actually mention post length specifically. You said the merits of an argument. But I'm saying that even the merits of an argument should only matter for as much as they are needed to convince the majority. My original post was very simple, most people seem to agree. I didn't have to go out of my way to be very detailed and try really hard to convince a bunch of people. I said what needed to be said and most people seem to agree. So why is it that you think you can come along and just be like 'nah'? Your opinion is one opinion. You are one person. We all play the server together.

[Varlun]

I feel the need to clarify: When I refer to "my idea" or "my original post", I'm talking about the second thread I made, not this one.

[necaladun]

3 minutes ago, Varlun said:

But if they ACTUALLY DID want that- who are you to say no?

A headmin and one of the founders of the server. This is not intended to be an MLP ERP server, and if a majority did want that, I'd suggest they go start their own server to create that. You're welcome to use the code too! 

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Just because you're an admin, why does that magically give your opinion more value than everyone else?

See above. It's not magic. Additionally, I'm not just an admin, I've also been known to play on the server as well.

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The point of the server is to entertain people, to provide them with something they want to do.

The point of the server is not to entertain all people. It's to entertain people in a specific way within the vision of the server. We are not attempting to appeal to as many people as possible. The goal is to create a certain type of server, and that doesn't appeal to everyone. That's ok! There's plenty of other servers, the code is available and open source as well, so others can use it to create their own modifications, as various people have, but it has never been the intent to appeal to as many people as possible. When we created the server, it was with a certain vision in mind that has evolved over the years, and will continue to, but this evolution is not going to be solely chosen by popular opinion. Quality is more important than quantity. 

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But if the real majority of people genuinely wanted that, then I feel you are obligated to oblidge

I'm really not. I nor none of the staff are paid employees. We're not obliged to spend our free time to create the kind of server other people want to play on in their time. This is an incredibly entitled attitude. I know it's a kinda cliched line, but we're volunteers working for free (or at our own expense sometimes), and you're enjoying the fruits of that labor without paying a dime. 

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Most people seem to be for it, which is probably a pretty good indicator that it's a good idea.

I have no idea where you're getting this from. Your numbers are frankly bizarre. I see...5 people liking that. That's not even.most admins. That's not even most of the clown players of the last 24 hours. I'm not sure who you're counting as "people" but your sample size seems frankly tiny.  There were 100 people on the server last I checked, 250 online in the discord, and 13 browsing the forum. I'm struggling to see what 5 people is most of. I wouldn't even call it major support. 

 

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 Admins gets 1 vote, just like everyone else. Now I do not strictly mean 1 vote, because that would be a democracy, I'm just saying your opinion should be worth just as much as ours.

When you say "ours", who do you mean? People who post suggestions, players in general, people who click upvote on posts...?

Additionally - why should someone who has logged onto the server once have their opinion be worth the same as someone who has played for years and better understands it, or people who make the server a much more enjoyable experience with their play, or the people who have put thousands of hours into working on it, or the people who have funded the server, or the people who created it in the first place? 

Someone who has been banned for spamming racist slurs over OOC's opinion is not ever going to be worth the same as other players. Again, I'd quit before I let people like that start defining the direction of the server. Not everyone is welcome here. It is not a public service we're running. It's a private gaming server. 

This isn't to say I'm sole dictator of all direction of the server. Originally it was defined mostly between myself and my flatmate, mkenner, with Zomgponies in charge of the coding aspects. Over time it's expanded to more and more people, to the extent that now I don't have complete control on who new admins are, or how decisions are made. I'm happy to compromise on plenty of issues,  Paradise has become much bigger than that, but it's still not, nor will it ever be, defined entirely by public opinion. That was never the intent of the server and has never been how we've operated, and we've done pretty bloody well for ourselves if I do say so myself. Have some faith in me and the admin team - we seem to have created a server that a hell of a lot of people enjoy, and thousands of people have spent thousands of hours enjoying. 

 

[Tayswift]

I know you're not pushing for this idea anymore, but just wanted to point out that having 4 slots doesn't only impact convenience. Borgs lose use of their slots when damaged so you'd have to take that into account too.

[Varlun]

When I say most people seem to be for it, I mean in the context of that thread. 5 people have upvoted it, and not a single post has been made against it. Even still, sure, it's a fairly small sample size, but if you back out of the thread and see how many views it has- I would imagine that if somebody objected for some reason, they would say something. So that's what I'm going off of. Support vs opposition. Small support, sure, but no visible opposition.

I suppose I pretty much agree with most of your other points. And perhaps I'm getting upset over nothing. Let me ask you directly: What do you think of my idea, in the second thread, to have the scanner be built in? I'm not entirely sure I understand your stance, I don't think you've said anything about that specifically. I think initially you were simply rejecting the notion that medical cyborgs should be super doctors. Which is indeed an entirely separate discussion. However if you were to reject the idea of having the scanner be built in, due to that reasoning, then that's where this discussion would have to go. And I would hate to have that discussion over something as simple as being able to scan people. I purposefully made a new thread with a new idea that had much less impact, to avoid this problem. Like I said in the thread, I can't imagine many people being opposed to something as simple and small as that.