Chaplain's WOLOLO staff nerf?

[Sothangel]

So, the conversion staff has a few issues in my opinion.

1 - Security and Command have no way of knowing that thralls are actually thralls, or knowing when they stop being thralls.

2 - You can't tell that it's being used until the point of being converted, so you can't actually reasonably defend yourself from being enthralled.

3 - The amount of thralls one could possibly get can easily lend itself to instantly lethal battles.

 

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Purpose2]

If the person and the targets are playing well and not being jerks. Its the most OP item in the entire game. Hands down. I've used this a lot. To hillarious results.

Just to add to your list: wololo tots and get them to buy you items... "hey go stick these bags of holding into each other in the security lobby, good thrall"

It needs a nerf of some kind, its just tooooooooooo good.

[Twinmold]

As of this moment, if I remember correctly, the conversion only lasts 5 minutes, which is one of the major down sides of the item. Should there be a way to tell someone is a thrall? Perhaps. But how would you suggest going about that? To tell them knowing when they stop being a thrall is something they are supposed to 'role-play' (*gasp!*) of basically, "H-how did I get here?" You can use the same thing of, "They appear to be dazed as their mind returns to them." The issue is, considering the missionary staff is Chaplain only, it's REALLY easy to meta (not just the fact it's a bit red staff). Could make it so, if not already, you have to two-hand it to use it, not sure of its mechanics. Maybe give it the ranged 'chant' for 2 or 3 seconds, if you remain in view of the user, it 'converts' you for the 5 minutes. Just long enough that it takes a stun to do, which seeing someone with a stun is a bit more noticeable, but just short enough a time most players can't react before they are thralled. Limiting the number of thralls you could have at any one time would be useful, as well, lending you to manage them a bit more (2 or 3 thralls at any time maximum, if you grab any more, the first in that list you lose grasp of as a thrall, ending their conversion early).

Edited May 9, 2017 by Twinmold

[Sothangel]

10 minutes for most crew, 5 if they have a mindshield.

[Purpose2]

"Wololo"

"Jump into my cremator please"

[EldritchSigma]

How much TC is it exactly and how many uses does it have? I know first hand how annoying and powerfull it can be when used on you. At the same time if you have to give up your objective as a traitor to the chaplin traitor just get a pinpointer and let it lock into the item they took (e.g captains laser) for that your character knows he had it, memory loss he doesnt have it. If you see the chaplin then you can RP the memory loss a little, but probably ends in him wololoing you again and telling you to move into the incinerator.

Could need a nerf... or specifically say that you still have basic self preservation instincts on it so you dont get to kill your targets for almost free with this thing. Also it should have a message when mindcontrol wears off, its too easy to frame someone for a crime while under the influence of the Wololo. You could tell your target to murder some random jerk and get him executed and never cloned that way...

Edited May 9, 2017 by EldritchSigma

[Ziiro]

Sidenote: Is it possible to get one of these in a syndicate surplus?

Edited May 10, 2017 by Ziiro

[Sothangel]

Yep, it is possible.

[Cyiko]

15 hours ago, Purpose2 said:

"Wololo"

"Jump into my cremator please"

I don't mind the Wololo staff personally, but how easy it is as a weapon is kinda dumb

WOLOLO "Kill yourself". There should be some rule like "The sense of self preservation is too strong for a mindslaving tool to overwhelm" AKA you can't ask them to kill themselves. Potentially dangerous situations though like, go fight all of security would be fine, but nothing that is blatantly just Kill yourself, jump into the cremator, jump into the engine, ignite a plasma fire while you're in it, that sort of stuff.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Cyiko

[Twinmold]

I do agree that anything that is to enthrall, mindslave, convert, or subvert to tell them to commit suicide is just idiotic. That isn't fun for your target in any way and not something we want to be supporting. It needs reminding that the people you are telling to off themselves for your objective are also players, and you're basically telling them to take themselves out of the round with no chance of not being killed. 'Go fight security.' does give you a technical chance to prepare and properly take down security if you are smart enough. However, it's still iffy. Using any of the above methods as a crutch for a role that doesn't exclusively need to use it (shadowling and cult do, it's part of their mode) is just too easy sometimes, unless you give them something fun to actually do. And people (myself included) wouldn't mind it as much if we weren't asked to kill ourselves every other time just so they either clean up evidence or kill us (seriously, do the dirty work yourself, you're an antagonist).

When I do request people to kill themselves, it's usually end of round and they aren't my slave so they have every possibility to outright decline, perhaps even turn me in, but I do try to give a reason most times (sad story that fits my character's background). Personally, I wish it was possible to have a preference that makes it so you never get kill objectives.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Twinmold

[Purpose2]

Its a fun item to use, but frankly, its so broken gameplay-wise, and is often to toxic to use that it probably could be axed without any real issues.

[FalseIncarnate]

The Missionary Set (Staff, Robes, and a standard bible) is a 15 TC purchase available only to the chaplain. This is 75% of your TC for what is effectively a re-usable mindslave which can only be recharged while you are wearing the robes and holding the staff. They also are obtainable from a surplus crate, which is all your TC for a CHANCE to get one.

 

• You cannot convert people who are already mindslaves or zealots (though ironically you can convert a vampire's thrall), and attempting to do so wastes 25 of your current faith reserves.
• Attempting to convert a person with a mindshield implant has an 80% chance to fail and waste 75 faith, and uses extra faith if you manage to succeed which results in a longer recharge time. Additionally, if you succeed, the zealot only remains under your sway for 5 minutes, half the normal zealot duration.
• Attempting to convert the librarian or psychologist has a 35% chance to fail and waste 50 faith.

 

Converting a victim requires they remain within view of you for 4 seconds, during which time you cannot move or swap hands off the staff. Getting bumped by a passerby is enough to break your concentration, causing the attempt to fail. Losing sight of the victim makes you lose 25 faith, but you don't lose faith if your concentration is broken.

 

The robes recharge their staff at a rate of 5 faith per object process (roughly 2 seconds) as long as the robes are worn and the staff is within 3 tiles of the wearer, and you must have 100 faith in order to convert someone. This means, on average, you can convert 1 person each minute, and the average duration of conversion is 10 minutes.

 

When I coded the item, I specifically made the conversion message say "You now must lay down your life to protect them and assist in their goals at any cost." because religious fervor can convince people to do some VERY stupid things in the name of their god. However, you are still not mindless, it doesn't say you must follow their every word exactly. If a chaplain tells you to kill yourself for him, you are well within rights to attempt to persuade him you are more use to him alive than dead. If you are his assassination target, you don't have to use the suicide verb because he tells you to, you could bash your face in with a fire extinguisher instead... In the end you being dead is what his goal was.

 

As for being unable to tell when someone is a zealot... Their jumpsuit's inventory icon will change to red or blue (depending on the color of the missionary staff used), though this does require taking the item off them to check. I never did get it to work where the on-mob sprite recolored properly...

 

In short, the item(s) are powerful, which is why they cost so much and are only reliably available to a single job. The item isn't the issue, it's the mentality of the users and victims.

[Enginseer-42]

Just gonna say, generally if you give a zealot time to prepare for their suicide mission they waste time until the effects wear off.

[Monstrant]

22 hours ago, FalseIncarnate said:

When I coded the item, I specifically made the conversion message say "You now must lay down your life to protect them and assist in their goals at any cost." because religious fervor can convince people to do some VERY stupid things in the name of their god. However, you are still not mindless, it doesn't say you must follow their every word exactly. If a chaplain tells you to kill yourself for him, you are well within rights to attempt to persuade him you are more use to him alive than dead. If you are his assassination target, you don't have to use the suicide verb because he tells you to, you could bash your face in with a fire extinguisher instead... In the end you being dead is what his goal was.

I once had the wolololo staff and converted a greyshirt since he was my target. He suggested a plan which would kill and grind sec in the disposals. I have agreed just for fun. In the end the plan failed and I got captured. The thrall did not die and sucessfuly lived through the slave.

 

It would have been easier to just order them to kill themselves but I did not, in the end I got a worse result. It is simply not reliable to use more "fun" means of removing someone from the round. I ussually shard my target which both makes them non cloneable and allows them to remain in the round. The issue is not with the staff. Its the players. Just be on the lookout for the red big staff and you ll be alright. Many people dont actually know how the thing works so they often fail to properly react. I managed to convert 5 assistants and a chemist without a single problem. (It was for fun. I just gave them fun missions like stealing NT's Pen and Insulting CE)

 

Edit: I also agree with @Enginseer-42. Happened to me as well.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Monstrant