Fix Quarantine Law Priorities

[IK3I]

So I just got out of a round that pretty much exemplified the problem of the quarantine lawset. In it, borgs were actively ignoring their primary lawset (crewsimov) in order to beat down and tie up a large number of people on the labor camp. Between this and an incompetent ERT, people started dying of injuries and suffocation due to a breach that was completely ignored by both parties.

 

This would be a problem even if the law was priority zero or higher. It's not even close, in fact its only higher priority than freeform laws, yet consistently synthetic players use it as an excuse to break their other higher priority laws. I think its about time the community and more importantly, the staff, makes a call, either update the priority to zero to justify this behavior, or crack down on it because it's literally breaking server rules to break synthetic laws.

 

Discuss

Edited May 14, 2017 by IK3I

[Twinmold]

The issue with making it priority 0 would mean anyone could call the Quarantine Law, then reset the AI and if the AI was traitor, their Priority 0 law for traitor gets erased. You can't make it an ion law because then it's an 'error' law and would have to be removed anyway, but would also force the AI to have to do the ion law over their traitor law. It would be nice is AIs had 'Directive Laws', that go under ion laws and above numerical (starting at 0) laws.

[IK3I]

well The main issue I'm raising here is that there is an inconsistency between priority and application by a large number of synthetic players. We would either need to make room between as you suggest to keep the behavior, or make people actually obey the priorities through admin intervention or some other means to prevent situations like mentioned above from happening.

[Tayswift]

There's also the issue that the quarantine law only works with crewsimov. On PALADIN, for example, "Respect legitimate authority" comes before quarantine, so command can simply order you to lift the quarantine.

[BiberDark]

I am not so sure about that. Quarantine is to protect humanity or other aliens from a spreading pandemic, which started on your station. It would be perfectly fine to kill everyone who tries to leave for the protection of the greater Good ( The other life forms in this sector ).  Be sure if there would be a real killervirus in your city military would shoot you dead before you can leave. In every country of the world. In this case crew would be expanded to other nanotrasen facilities and your are classified as enemy or at least danger to the cooperation.

Edited May 14, 2017 by BiberDark

[DeadBySmiley]

Well if you think about it in case of corporate law and quarantine law the AI can litteraly just say that everybody who tries to leave is a traitor since leaving the station with possible danger, means more expenses.

Edited May 14, 2017 by DeadBySmiley

[Purpose2]

You are misunderstanding how the law is written:

Quote

The station is under a quarantine. Do not permit anyone to leave. Prevent, by any means necessary, anyone from leaving. It is impossible to harm anyone while preventing them from leaving.

Pertinent section:

Quote

It is impossible to harm anyone while preventing them from leaving.

Meaning you can beat the everloving shit out of them, without ever causing them any harm.

Its a re-definition and works absolutely fine not being a zeroth law.

[BiberDark]

Maybe it should be reformulated to : If they try to leave you are free to terminate and cremate them. (;

 

PS: I think if this law is active Security should have new orders to assist the Ai and to make sure nobody leaves the station. So that not only the Ai have to fight all people. It should be supported the crew surely didn't want that their families home would get infected, too.

Edited May 14, 2017 by BiberDark

[EvadableMoxie]

2 hours ago, BiberDark said:

Maybe it should be reformulated to : If they try to leave you are free to terminate and cremate them. (;

 

That would mean as soon as someone tries to leave you can lethally attack them and cremate them, which is FAR harsh than the law currently allows. The statement "It is impossible to harm anyone while preventing them from leaving." is much less harsh, because once someone is no longer capable of leaving, be it through non-lethal subduel or simply being beaten into crit, they are no longer capable of leaving, and thus continuing to attack them is not preventing them from leaving, which makes doing so harming them.

in effect, gives the AI exactly enough leeway to do what it takes to enforce the quarantine without going to murderbone mode. 

[IK3I]

the inherent problem that you all seem to be missing, is that in virtually every lawset, you could be on quarantine and get an order to let someone leave. you then have to let them leave. It being law eight means it is the last consideration you make. Just because it redefines harm, doesn't mean you can ignore a direct order on crewsimov or paladin. Synthetic players often do anyway. Focusing on one aspect of the problem instead of the problem as a whole isn't going to solve the issue. If behavior does not reflect priority, something is wrong.

[Tayswift]

On 5/14/2017 at 2:53 PM, IK3I said:

Just because it redefines harm, doesn't mean you can ignore a direct order on crewsimov or paladin

That's actually a great point. Don't know why I thought it was compatible with crewsimov in the first place. NT default has the same issue with quarantine as Paladin, since it respects the command hierarchy.

As for expenses, the only thing that are defined as expenses in the corporate lawset are replacing the AI, replacing station equipment, and replacing crew. So quarantine actually does work with this lawset, as long as you're not killing crew to prevent them from leaving. Though I guess if crew are smashing windows to try to get to the shuttle, then there's an argument to be made that you should just let them on. Which is another reason why quarantine's priority is too low.

Public trust is a little hard to define, so it's probably up to the AI in question what to do with robocop+quarantine.

So, the correct procedure to quarantine the station would be to hit the AI with corporate/robocop AND quarantine. Any other lawset is easily circumvented. The "it is impossible to do harm" clause is actually useless because it only affects crewsimov (edit: on second thought, it's actually useful in neutralizing "protect the innocent" of robocop), but doesn't affect law 2.

A long term fix may be to actually just make a quarantine lawset.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Tayswift

[necaladun]

It just occured to me quarantine could be used to help with hijack if done right. A better wording for it should include that i think...

 

I think wording rather than priority is a better fix overall.

[Tayswift]

38 minutes ago, necaladun said:

I think wording rather than priority is a better fix overall.

I'll take a stab at writing a more universal quarantine lawset:

The station is under a quarantine. To protect the station, prevent, by any means necessary, anyone from leaving. It is impossible to harm anyone, commit evil, incur expenses, violate the public trust, act dishonorably, or disrespect legitimate authority while preventing them from leaving. Anyone trying to leave cannot have needs and should not be considered crew while they are attempting to leave.

I think that covers all the bases...and I've just realized that pretty much every law in PALADIN potentially conflicts with quarantine, depending on the interpretation.

Edit: There should also probably be a "You cannot come to harm during quarantine" so that the AI/borg cannot lift quarantine in order to save itself.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Tayswift

[BiberDark]

As for me a foreign language speaker, this sound like you are not allowed to harm, do evil. incur expenses -- disrespect legitimate authority. And this directly conflicts with protect the station and prevent them from leaving. (This is maybe only me, but consider this a possibility)

2 hours ago, Tayswift said:

Anyone trying to leave cannot have needs and should not be considered crew while they are attempting to leave.

Conflicts with public trust ( a term i dont like in general to vague). And second public trust would be include people outside the station (the known universe) . 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This should be used as law and Central Command Order for the Crew. (Replacing the Old Lawset as long as it is in effect)

It should sound more like that:

1. The Lifeforms on this station are now defined as a danger to humankind and nanotrasen (alienkind whatever)/ Lifeforms are now defined as bioweapons. They are not allowed to leave the station under any circumstances.

(It is what it is, a Pandemic which must be isolated. If this is not possible by other ways Nanotrasen has to send a Death Squad to terminate the problem.)

2. All Command authority is transferred directly to Central Command. Station Command is advised to follow quarantine procedures and support the AI in doing so. 

(This is to stop command and other people to order the AI to lift the quarantine)

(Security has to maintain order and justice so that nobody is forced to use lethal force)

3. Lifeforms on this station are not allowed to lift the quarantine by themself. Exception: Only the Chief Medical Officer in direct unanimously consensus with the AI can lift the quarantine. *Only Medical Staff can apply as CMO in this case.

( A real CMO/ Virologist hast to prepare a cure , no way of leaving before that. Shuttle entry is only granted if you are healed. The AI has to check it too and has to approve.)

4. All Lifeforms who wants to leave have to be scanned and checked that they are not infected. If they are infected they are not allowed to leave (rule 1).

( Only non infected staff are allowed to leave the station after a cleaning process (shower-disinfection)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: If the pandemic cant be handled the AI should have a way to contact Central Command to state this issue ( selfdestruct /death squad)

Edited May 16, 2017 by BiberDark

[Tayswift]

 

8 hours ago, BiberDark said:

As for me a foreign language speaker, this sound like you are not allowed to harm, do evil. incur expenses -- disrespect legitimate authority. And this directly conflicts with protect the station and prevent them from leaving. (This is maybe only me, but consider this a possibility)

It's a redefinition to ensure that preventing crew from leaving doesn't get prevented by any of the above laws. Laws that are below other laws can only influence the higher laws by redefining terms.

8 hours ago, BiberDark said:

10 hours ago, Tayswift said:

Anyone trying to leave cannot have needs and should not be considered crew while they are attempting to leave.

Conflicts with public trust ( a term i dont like in general to vague). And second public trust would be include people outside the station (the known universe) . 

I intended this sentence to also be a redefinition, so ideally it shouldn't conflict with anything. It's intended to nullify "Help those in need" of PALADIN and the "You must obey crew" part of crewsimov.

Public trust is actually a really cool concept. It's basically about not abusing your power entrusted to you by the public and thus respecting the rights of the public. Robocop is an excellent lawset that people unfairly think of as merely a validhunt lawset.

[BiberDark]

I think quarantine should replace all other law sets active , excluding Law 0 if it is  present.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe there should be a lower quarantine level  (code yellow ) like today and a kind of code black quarantine which has to be set by the CMO / CC / AI. Maybe with swiping cards.

The first one is used for diseases with a slow progression and a moderate threat. The Second Code Black is used for terminal diseases which are fast and easy to get (airborne) virus (Brainrot / Designed Killervirus).

 

 

Code Yellow - does not remove the old lawsets instead it adds them to the existing ones

Code Black - replaces all previous lawsets as stated and described in my former post.

Quote

1. The Lifeforms on this station are now defined as a danger to humankind and nanotrasen (alienkind whatever)/ Lifeforms are now defined as bioweapons. They are not allowed to leave the station under any circumstances.

(It is what it is, a Pandemic which must be isolated. If this is not possible by other ways Nanotrasen has to send a Death Squad to terminate the problem.)

2. All Command authority is transferred directly to Central Command. Station Command is advised to follow quarantine procedures and support the AI in doing so. 

(This is to stop command and other people to order the AI to lift the quarantine)

(Security has to maintain order and justice so that nobody is forced to use lethal force)

3. Lifeforms on this station are not allowed to lift the quarantine by themself. Exception: Only the Chief Medical Officer in direct unanimously consensus with the AI can lift the quarantine. *Only Medical Staff can apply as CMO in this case.

( A real CMO/ Virologist hast to prepare a cure , no way of leaving before that. Shuttle entry is only granted if you are healed. The AI has to check it too and has to approve.)

4. All Lifeforms who wants to leave have to be scanned and checked that they are not infected. If they are infected they are not allowed to leave (rule 1).

( Only non infected staff are allowed to leave the station after a cleaning process (shower-disinfection)

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by BiberDark

[necaladun]

Hmmm, having "quarantine" be the lawset, rather than an extra law added might be the best way to do it for sure!

Don't worry to much about justifying the reasons in the laws, just make sure the laws achieve the objective.

[Sothangel]

I think a QT lawset is a great idea, an improvement on the current law 8 usage.

[necaladun]

Law 1: Keep the station under quarantine.

Law 2: Act like a kinda normal lawset for everything else.

Law 3: Allow this lawset to be changed when the situation is over.

Law 4: Captain is Comdom

Law 5: Comdom is Captain

Something like the laws 1-3 there, but worded properly.

[Tayswift]

8 hours ago, necaladun said:

Law 2: Act like a kinda normal lawset for everything else.

Maybe just NT Default with a quarantine slapped on top? It is supposed to be the "default" for Nanotrasen, though a recent PR removed its defaultness for some reason. Oh and "allow this lawset to be changed" should be a clause of law 1 rather than law 3, I think.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Tayswift

[BiberDark]

If in Law 1 then only allow this law to be changed when the situation is under control/over. The important part is that it cant be easily changed if the pandemic is still going on. If not, all Captains/Commands cry. Change the law so that we can call a shuttle.

Maybe we change it in a way that only the ai can call a shuttle under quarantine ( a special biohazard shuttle ).

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by BiberDark