Karma Overhaul

[Ziiro]

So there's some problems with the Karma system at present. Players reward it to other players for Robustness or Saving them, rather than roleplay. Additionally, species unlocks are tied to karma - which seems largely arbitrary because attempts are made to 'balance' the races, so why is there disparity in the costs? Rarity? Roleplaying experience? I've been thinking about this, I'd like to offer up my suggestions for discussion:

 

Earning/Rewarding Karma:

Problem: To be honest, so long as this is largely in the player's hands, this is something that you can't really regulate. Players will give karma at random, or maybe for (what some consider) the wrong reasons. Or, more commonly, not at all.

Proposed solutions:

• Give a notice about Karma in the window as the shuttle departs from the station if it hasn't been spent. This way they have time to think about awarding karma, rather than being in the end-of-round-grief fervor
• Allow admins to give more karma than players, and encourage it for people who roleplay well, contribute to making the round interesting, or just play their role well. (That security officer who follows SoP and Space law to the letter should be rewarded!)
• Give a notification in chat that a player has earned karma. Maybe with a delay so that they do not simply reward karma back to the person who gave it to them, but let it act as a reminder that the system exists.
• Allow(Require?) notes to be added from the karma-giver, and allow them to be read by the karma-receiver. anonymized to the reader (but not to admins)

Spending/Using Karma:

Problem: Species which are alien and more interesting are put behind (in my opinion) arbitrary costed karma locks. There are only hand a handful of jobs related to karma, and of those only a few make sense. (Why is Mechanic and barber behind karma? They're glorified assistants.)

Proposed solutions:

• Remove species locks from Karma. Tie them to the hours played system. Or, nothing at all.
• Put more careers behind karma locks: Captain/HoS/Warden/RD/HoP/CMO/AI. Roles that can have a severe impact on the enjoyment of other players. Not a high cost, but something that makes the player consider what they actually want to focus on and learn.
• Add more jobs behind karma locks with the theory that "These jobs have access to things that, in the hands of a poor player, could cause harm to the round" (Gateway Explorer, for example)
• Paying for Loadout items, like a cyborg visor, as a permanent addition to one's inventory.
• Allow players to pay Karma for Antag tokens and ask for an antag type, with the conditions that: 1) Admins can straight up deny it any reason (that they are not provided to give you) and 2) Use at your own risk. If you end up as a traitor in a blob round, well, have fun e-swording a blob!

The last point I'd like to add to: Something that I noticed whenever there's admin trickery about: A lot of the population has a lot of expectations with regards to the round. For example, the second it's determined that it's "WIZNERDS!!", everyone's mindset shifts to block out what can't happen. I think this is a mistake, and people need to be kept on their toes. Some of my favorite rounds have strange mixes of antagonists. "There's a door emagged open, but I just saw a wizard, what's going on?" Some of my favorite moments have also been generated from unique objectives - such the Kidan Empress that had to steal all the Heads' rubber stamps, and did so through various meetings with them.

[FlattestGuitar]

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Allow admins to give more karma than players

This can't be implemented in a fair way. As it is, earning is very inconsistent. If we suddenly have admins handing it out it will only make matters worse. We've had this discussion in staff chat a few times and there's really no way to make sensible guidelines on a subject so wide.

 

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Literally everything else

The specifics would probably need to be worked out, but I strongly agree with the fact that we need a karma rework. The system is flawed in an incredible amount of ways, the decisions behind its numbers make zero sense and everything in general would use a second look-over.

I like what you've proposed so far, other than the Heads/AI being locked thing. If we don't have the right karma thresholds set, we might end up without elligible people for the roles.

[necaladun]

43 minutes ago, Ziiro said:

Allow admins to give more karma than players, and encourage it for people who roleplay well, contribute to making the round interesting, or just play their role well. (That security officer who follows SoP and Space law to the letter should be rewarded!)

 

I considered this awhile ago but thought players would be really against it, guess I'm wrong there or at least for you! I'd love to hear feedback from others here. I also had an idea of some sort of...admin-karma, a separate track. I think it has a lot of potential problems though.

 

49 minutes ago, Ziiro said:

Give a notification in chat that a player has earned karma.

I'd kinda like this, with the delay. It'd be nice to know, but not who from because of trading potentials as you said.

50 minutes ago, Ziiro said:

Allow(Require?) notes to be added from the karma-giver, and allow them to be read by the karma-receiver. anonymized to the reader (but not to admins)

I love this in theory. In practice, the coding, SQL sides, etc, could make it a clusterfuck sadly. I think as a requirement it'd really decrease the amount given.

 

51 minutes ago, Ziiro said:

Spending/Using Karma:

Head roles and other "default stuff" will never be karma locked, that's been long time policy.

Species were originally karma-locked to make them rarer, which worked quite well and somewhat does - I think we could even look at increasing the prices on some of them to increase that.

Karma will never let you get antag tokens.

In general, increasing the "power" of karma is not a good idea with the current implementation of karma. Some people have 500+, which is very hard for a newer player to get.

 

51 minutes ago, Ziiro said:

The last point I'd like to add to: 

Prolly best for a seperate thread, but I agree and LOVE fucking with Meta.

[Dinarzad]

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Species were originally karma-locked to make them rarer, which worked quite well and somewhat does - I think we could even look at increasing the prices on some of them to increase that.

Pls no.
some of the karma pricing on the species are already pretty obscene as it is (Lookin' at you plasmaguys/gals)
At that point, honestly it would be better to do it via a whitelist, because at least then it's ACTUALLY 'throttled' with more direct control and feasibly anyone can do it, inside of a year and a half.

As it is, the prices are steep on several races, especially if that's what you WANT to play as. There is nothing I, as a player, can do to achieve that goal faster. I am at the mercy of other players and what they deem to be "Good Roleplay" or whatever criteria they have for giving karma out, so that I can unlock the fancy paintjob I want for my assistant.
For someone that just wants to play something that looks cool or different then a bog-standard human, that's... that's pretty demoralizing. Especially when your main goal is mostly for a cosmetic then a "This race has free spess travel" mindset.

If it is primarily rarity/frequency of alien races that staff are worried about, then I HONESTLY do believe a whitelist achieves that goal better and puts more onus of achieving the thing a player wants in their own hands, since they are responsible for their own whitelist application and their own effort. They are NOT responsible for other people forgetting or not wanting to give out karma. Because every player is different both in what makes them give it out in the first place, and how often, some dole it out like candy, some hold onto it like Ebenezer Scrooge holds onto a gold coin at Christmas time, they give it out only for miraculous events or feats.
Because with karma as it is, you are effectively "Competing" with almost 100 other players in a round, to try and get the thing you want. And that's kinda meh.

[necaladun]

Plasmas wouldn't be one of those for sure! Morseo IPC and vox.

Whitelists we really really really want to avoid. With so many people already having the races, the sheer amount of applications we'd have, etc, it'd be an absolute clusterfuck.

[Birdtalon]

I strongly believe that no species should be karma locked at all, and especially we should not go down the road of white listing. For example what would you set as the criteria for entry into the white list?

I would personally rather see cosmetic items locked behind karma for character customisation instead of anything mechanical. Why should I as a Vox player have mechanical advantages over a new player just because I have played long enough to get 45 Karma?

[Monstrant]

On 16.05.2017 at 5:05 AM, Dinarzad said:

For someone that just wants to play something that looks cool or different then a bog-standard human, that's... that's pretty demoralizing. Especially when your main goal is mostly for a cosmetic then a "This race has free spess travel" mindset.

I agree here. I would really want to have something different. I already have to pick where to spend karma, race or job. And provided that I am not recieving a lot of karma ( *sob* sorry whoever tried to RP with me ) it is very frustrating. For example now I cannot choose what to pick NT Rep or Grey. I like both ideally a combination but by choosing one I void the other for months of time. The only time I remember getting 4-5 karma is when I have effectively slaughtered the Medbay. People do not give you karma if you are a doctor treating them from a deadly aliment or a chef making their food.

[CPTCoffee]

I agree that players should be notified on the shuttle rather than end of round where you can't do anything. 

Admins being able to give more though? No. Don't do that. 

Karma should not just be spent on jobs but cosmetic items. Species lock though...i like it the way it is. 

[Spacemanspark]

22 hours ago, Agent_Che said:

People do not give you karma if you are a doctor treating them from a deadly aliment or a chef making their food.

My vox chef character would like to have a word with you.

Regarding the topic, however, I do think that raising the prices on IPCs or vox would be a good idea. We use karma as a means of increasing roleplay, and those who unlock those races are generally capable of upholding it. The prices are really small for what they are, however, so it somewhat falls flat depending on your player.

[ExGame]

20 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

My vox chef character would like to have a word with you.

Regarding the topic, however, I do think that raising the prices on IPCs or vox would be a good idea. We use karma as a means of increasing roleplay, and those who unlock those races are generally capable of upholding it. The prices are really small for what they are, however, so it somewhat falls flat depending on your player.

I can say for sure that karma is not given to good roleplay in the majority of the times.

Theres tons of players that have vox and IPC or whatever else race unlocked and they do absolutely nothing to even uphold the RP of that species or even general RP.

[Monstrant]

2 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

My vox chef character would like to have a word with you.

Just me then.

[Dinarzad]

10 hours ago, ExGame said:

I can say for sure that karma is not given to good roleplay in the majority of the times.

Theres tons of players that have vox and IPC or whatever else race unlocked and they do absolutely nothing to even uphold the RP of that species or even general RP.

Absolutely this.
Most the time I see karma given or get karma for myself, it isn't roleplay that did it, it was because someone did something meme-y or mechanically impressive (Soloing Nuke Ops, etc.)
In my case, it's usually for making surgery quick an painless. Not because I put effort into posts or  tried to interact.

[Birdtalon]

9 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

Absolutely this.
Most the time I see karma given or get karma for myself, it isn't roleplay that did it, it was because someone did something meme-y or mechanically impressive (Soloing Nuke Ops, etc.)
In my case, it's usually for making surgery quick an painless. Not because I put effort into posts or  tried to interact.

I have got the majority of karma from late-game plays where I have happened to come out on top of a fight with a number of people spectating me so you are fairly correct here.