Lets fuck with the meta

[shazbot194]

So there has been a lot of talk about trying to do things such as increase RP, reduce meta, improve antags, and I think I might have an idea how to. With some help from @ZN23X, we came up with the idea of getting rid of game-modes and instead have it so any combo of antags could spawn. This would mean that you could end up with vampires, changelings and traitors could all spawn in the same round, or you could just have rounds with only one of them. A way to make this work would be to assign a point value to each antag, for instance, a traitor could only be 5 points where a vampire could be 10, with group and/or powerful antags, such as cult, being much higher, like in the 30-50 range. The number of points in a round would be determined by the population as well as some random factors to keep people from thinking we should have 70 points worth of antags but have only found 50. Some smaller changes would need to be made, for instance how nuke ops handles buying equipment and possibly giving traitors new objectives for these rounds, such as assisting with the nuke ops and then escaping with the nuke team. I feel like this could massively change how people try to meta the game, but also spice up rounds massively. With this, we could also see more RP antags come back in, such as vox raiders/pirates, because even if they are a little dull by themselves they can be much more fun when you also have deal with other threats.

Edit: This wouldn't increase the amount of antags, if only traitors were to spawn, it should be about the same amount that would spawn in the current traitor mode, the only exceptions would be more fixed spawns like cult and nuke ops, which sees little increase in spawned antags from 30 people to 100 people. Which would hopefully lead to interesting interactions between the solo antags and the group antags.

Edited May 16, 2017 by shazbot194

[whiskeyfur]

Sadly I have to disagree. The problem isn't just code.. but also admins throwing even more things into a round when there's already enough problems as it is which makes X antag.. less of an issue compared to everything else.

It's one thing to deal with traitors.. but then there was a rogue AI, and then vampires, and then syndicate. and then Vox Raiders, then... I don't know what else was added but after the vox thing I quit that round. I came for the RP but when you throw TOO MANY antags in there.. it becomes a video game where you hunt the bad guys, pure and simple. RP was lost at that point.

I think the best thing that can be done to make Antags more important is to throw LESS of them in. That way the antag of the round is actually MORE important then.

Antags are not a case where more is better, quite the opposite. And I've seen Admins throwing more in when they're quite unnecessary and BAD for the RP because now the entire round is nothing but a combat game.

[shazbot194]

12 minutes ago, whiskeyfur said:

Sadly I have to disagree. The problem isn't just code.. but also admins throwing even more things into a round when there's already enough problems as it is which makes X antag.. less of an issue compared to everything else.

It's one thing to deal with traitors.. but then there was a rogue AI, and then vampires, and then syndicate. and then Vox Raiders, then... I don't know what else was added but after the vox thing I quit that round. I came for the RP but when you throw TOO MANY antags in there.. it becomes a video game where you hunt the bad guys, pure and simple. RP was lost at that point.

I think the best thing that can be done to make Antags more important is to throw LESS of them in. That way the antag of the round is actually MORE important then.

Antags are not a case where more is better, quite the opposite. And I've seen Admins throwing more in when they're quite unnecessary and BAD for the RP because now the entire round is nothing but a combat game.

While I don't disagree that pure combat is bad for RP, the intent wasn't to increase the amount of antags, but rather mix up what antags can spawn in together while trying to be close to what the original amount was, that was my bad for not explaining this. This way we could see a return of antags that wen't all about combat, such as pirates which while awesome and interesting, wouldn't be good for a round by themselves, but would be more then fair game with a system like the point system.

[whiskeyfur]

I can only see the solution you are suggesting as validating the problem, not addressing. It shouldn't be validated. There's no reason to have 5 traitors, 2 vox, a rogue AI, spiders, 1 vampire, a sydie... all because there's 100 people on. The problem is they each are very different kind of antags, which change the nature of the game each on their own. But all together? It's just a mess and what makes each antag special is just simply lost then in all the mess.

You wanted to "increase RP, reduce meta, improve antags"... I don't think allowing for more antags or codifying it so there's some kind of tacit approval from it code wise is going to do what you are asking, but quite the opposite instead. The problem is the Admins can override that mid round anyways.

[necaladun]

38 minutes ago, whiskeyfur said:

. it becomes a video game where you hunt the bad guys, pure and simple. RP was lost at that point.

I disagree - nothing is forcing you to hunt the bad guys or not RP. A vast majority of players aren't involved (and shouldn't be!) in the security/command aspects. While admins, code, etc, can help to get people out of that mindset - the players are the most powerful tool to do so. Be the change you want to see in the station!

Orginally vampire was it's own game mode, and we made tatorvamp to stop the meta of "it's traitors no vamps" and "it's vamps no traitors", etc, and I think that was really successful (feedback ofc welcome.)

Cult is a problem here, cult atm means no traitors etc. A meta I like to mess with if people are obviously using it. Wizard is similar (Protip: if you ever see Master Einath The Archmage, the first letter of each of his names is a hint to his purpose...). Nukeops would be insanely difficult with even a single other antag on the station sadly.

Cult and shadowlings have the problem of conversion - a ling/vamp/tator being converted to a thrall/cultist would make the lings/cultists very, very, very powerful. I don't even know how many tactics they would have available to them combining their powers with those of the others...

I encourage admins to mess with the meta, but you have to be careful too. I've accidentally gotten a red alert raised early for instance, making things harder on the real antags.

 

[Ziiro]

I think they have to be added by the admin, and done very carefully. Not to mention that you could use powerful antags against the other antags. In fact,  I think that should be the goal - so it's less awful for security. 

 

Examples

• The Wizard Federation has sent one of it's people to attempt to stop the inevitable rise of a cult on a station. He must work in secret. (If converted, he detonates)
• Two different cults trying to convert people towards their own god. (Does this work, on a technical level?)
• A traitor with an objective to kill the wizard - and steal the nuke disk.
• Nuke Operatives called after Shadowling Ascension to blow up a station BECAUSE of Shadowlings. Or just a traitor with the same goal. (Again, blows up if converted)
• A Changeling that must eat a vampire as an objective.
• A vampire that must drink the blood of a wizard

Edited May 16, 2017 by Ziiro

[whiskeyfur]

2 minutes ago, necaladun said:

I disagree - nothing is forcing you to hunt the bad guys or not RP. A vast majority of players aren't involved (and shouldn't be!) in the security/command aspects. While admins, code, etc, can help to get people out of that mindset - the players are the most powerful tool to do so. Be the change you want to see in the station!

Except when there is so many antags in the area that it's become all out war. then there's no time to take your eyes off the map because as soon as you do, you get ambushed and shot.  RP is lost then.

And to be honest, on that round with rogue AI, spiders, vox invaders, traitors... (yes, it all happened, I ended up giving up, ghosted, and given the opportunity to play one of the vox), there really was no time to do anything except shoot, hunt for more, shoot again. What LITTLE RP I did with the vox was only at the very start and one call for people to give in to their overlords during the round.. predictably, they used their guns instead, no RP in return.

When the fights start.. the server drops to light RP... or none at all.

Vampire, cult and traitors are perhaps more RP driven than any of the others. I've no problems with those. Wizards who don't call for war, good. The open wars? ugh.. I rather sit the round out.

I just want the staff to understand that the more antags there are.. the more of a top down shooter it becomes.

Also.. when most of the rounds end with the shuttle being called.. I don't consider that a good thing. Because to me, that's a failure on the part of the crew and it's getting tiresome.

[Dinarzad]

What about the notion of a "Sleeper Agent"?
Like a very low-tier syndicate antagonist who has some really low-grade objective that won't stir up a lot of stuff on their own, stealing a stamp or something (Syndicate has to keep that omni stamp up to date after all.) or get spawn with some syndicate documents they have to escape with. After all, you haven't been 'activated' yet, you're still awaiting orders and making sure your own existence is not discovered yet.
Something that basically can exist freely with almost every single antag type to dick with the meta a bit, but isn't a big enough threat or impactful enough to be throwing grease onto a kitchen fire in the case of cultists or lings or blobs.

[whiskeyfur]

16 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

What about the notion of a "Sleeper Agent"?
Like a very low-tier syndicate antagonist who has some really low-grade objective that won't stir up a lot of stuff on their own, stealing a stamp or something (Syndicate has to keep that omni stamp up to date after all.) or get spawn with some syndicate documents they have to escape with. After all, you haven't been 'activated' yet, you're still awaiting orders and making sure your own existence is not discovered yet.
Something that basically can exist freely with almost every single antag type to dick with the meta a bit, but isn't a big enough threat or impactful enough to be throwing grease onto a kitchen fire in the case of cultists or lings or blobs.

That I would appreciate. Right now the only objectives I've seen are large enough in scale they always disrupt everything.

[necaladun]

I've talked about and thrown a few sleeper agent ideas around before and I love the idea, but how to do it properly hasn't occurred to me.

Some big red text of "YOU SHOULD NEVER BE KILLING ANYONE OR BRINGING ANY ATTENTION TO YOURSELF" would be needed. I might be biased though, as I'm the one who deals with the problematic players who will take it to mean "im an antagonist lol time to griff"

[BiberDark]

Maybe so : -- >