Giving vampires some much needed love

[IK3I]

Preface:

Okay, so in response to the very clear want for changes to vampire mechanics, I made the following PR: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/7462

Now, this PR was initially to prevent cheese which made the life of people trying to get their blood in the intended way even harder to to elevated security and valid hunters caused by these 5 minute screamers. While I think vampires are in a tolerable state, they have several flaws to their design that come together to create something that's too weak in the early game, requiring external robustness rather than use of powers to be effective, that turns into a monster once it's arbitrarily priced powers are unlocked. This Thread is intended to host the rebalance discussion.

The goals of the redesign:

1. Give the vampire an early game tool that can't be abused against readied players once discovered
2. Make ability unlocks fit the ramping power and aggression themes vampires are supposed to have
3. Reward better execution of captures with faster ramping without making imperfect captures prohibitively harmful. 

Now then, onto the proposed changes

CURRENT

Abilities	Unlock	Cost	CD(s)	
---------------------------------------------------------
Rejuvinate	0	0	20
Glare		0	0	30
Hypnotize	0	20	180
Vamp Vision	100	N/A	N/A
Shapeshift	100	50	180
Disease		150	100	180
Cloak		150	0	1
Rejuv+		200	N/A	N/A
Bats		200	75	120
Screech		200	30	180
Shadowstep	250	30	2
Mist Form	300	30	60
Enthrall	300	300	180
Full Power	500	N/A	N/A

Notes:

One full body gets to bats
Two unlocks all abilities
Three unlocks full power

No quiet options for first kill, prod or other stun is almost required for first kill to be able to strip headset in time.

Stealthy options only available after first full drain. No real evasion tools until second kill mimimum.

Forces vampire to expose self early. Only solid counter is to not use powers for first kill as you can't defend yourself or run.
 

PROPOSED

Abilities	Unlock	Cost	CD(s)	
---------------------------------------------------------
Rejuvinate	0	0	20
Glare		0	0	30
Hypnotize	0	0	180		Changed
Vamp Vision	100	N/A	N/A
Shapeshift	100	50	180
Shadowstep	150	30	5		Longer CD, Lower Unlock
Cloak		150	0	1
Rejuv+		200	N/A	N/A
Disease		200	100	180		Higher Unlock, More deadly later
Bats		250	75	120		Higher Unlock
Screech		250	30	180		Higher Unlock
Enthrall	300	300	180
Mist Form	400	30	60		Higher Unlock
Full Power	600	N/A	N/A		Higher Unlock

Notes:

One full body unlocks all stealth and subversion techniques. Makes darkness far more valuable as cloak and shadowstep unlock at same time with solid interactions

Two unlocks abilities that allow the vampire to get loud and aggressive

Three unlocks full power

New hypnotize details:
Ranged stun in similar vein as sling stun. Requires both caster and victim to stand still for duration of cast time. Upon success, target is stunned and muted for a short time (roughly enough time to strip a headset if you're near them when you cast.) Has long CD on success, but no blood cost. Additionally, wearing flash protection blocks the visible message for the vampire, but roughly doubles cast time

New hypnotize allows vampire to play more into the roll of subtle dissident in the early game for the first kill or two before people wise up to their shenanigans. Note that this ability can't be used on moving targets or while stunned or blindfolded. It's also not particularly effective if you can't make people stop to do something like talking, for instance. Get out there and RP your victim into an early grave.

Blood counts for abilities focus on deception and stealth early with aggressive abilities unlocking later. Additionally, two perfect kills or three imperfect kills are now needed to mist which should reinforce the stealth aspect of the vampire in the early to midgame while not fully denying a wellplayed set of kills granting higher powers.

Full power now requires about three perfect kills. This is due to the inability to accurately test a full power vamp short of spacing.

Overall, this should be more representative of the intent for the vamp to ramp up in power and thus aggression over time. It still punishes poor play early, but vampires have always had the weakness of being a tator without gear in the early game. If played right, this would mean a vampire is capable of being self sufficient against isolated targets that it can convince to stop running around. The actual stun time here is also important, perhaps scaling inversely with range, or even scaling cast time with range so that being closer results in faster casts at the cost of subtlety.

[FlattestGuitar]

I made this thread a while back: 

I was fiddling with a lot of new vampire stuff locally, but I'd rather wait for the massive backlog of PRs to clear before I start working on something more serious myself.

It's late and I don't have much to add to the thread, but you can go read it for suggestions.

[FPK]

I should be working right now, but I want to give my two cents as a security player. Vampires are very underpowered, but excel in movement. Maybe we could push that aspect even further?

 

Oh, and make vampires actually burn in space. The burn damage right now is laughable. 

[Desolate]

Reduce the cost to Enthrall. 300 is ridiculus.

[Cyiko]

9 hours ago, Desolate said:

Reduce the cost to Enthrall. 300 is ridiculus.

This, but also let vampiric enthrallment be removed with holywater

[MarsMond]

14 hours ago, Cyiko said:

This, but also let vampiric enthrallment be removed with holywater

That's actually possible, so well, no need to add that with a lower cost.

[IK3I]

I'm going to take all this into consideration and draft up perhaps a more heavy handed rework to maybe give para some flavor to its vamps like flatty's thread brings up.

[Allfd]

What I like about Vampires is that they have a lot of room to RP by the lore.  I don't necessarily mean nice, but conflicted about what they are doing.

Lings have no such moral quandaries.

[Cyiko]

6 hours ago, MarsMond said:

That's actually possible, so well, no need to add that with a lower cost.

The wiki might be out of date, but it does say vampiric enthrallment can't be removed by anything except death.

[Anticept]

Vampires, to me, have a potential to them. However, much of that is, as alffd said, is in roleplay.

However, paradise is effectively, play to win. I can't enjoy building up roleplay with an antag without someone showing up trying to valid them. This is what has me enjoying baystation so much when I'm not feeling up to playing on Paradise. Antag knowledge is restricted, and greentext doesn't exist, so they have much more freedom to interact with the crew in their own creative ways. Most antags on baystation are not automatic valids just because they happen to exist.

I've had rounds on baystation where I've been on the edge of my seat because the antags were building a great fucking plot. While I would love to see some of this adapted to paradise, the fact is, until the drive to play to win is changed, I don't think good roleplay will ever be appreciated.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Anticept

[Allfd]

8 hours ago, Anticept said:

until the drive to play to win is changed, I don't think good roleplay will ever be appreciated.

This.

[ZN23X]

Some people essentially validate thier existence based on whether they win or fail in video games (I used to be one of them when I was younger) so the drive to win will always exist. It sucks but sometimes it's all someone has, so give em a break. That and...some people are just competitive by nature.

I don't think everyone on Para has a play to win mindset, or even the majority. The play to win people are just the easiest to see.

Some of the most memorable and fun stuff that has happened to me in this game was when I "lost"

Edited June 6, 2017 by ZN23X

[Tayswift]

It may not be the majority but it's enough to create an RP unfriendly environment. People can be so adverserial at times. I was playing magistrate for the second time the other day and after sentencing someone to perma for a very close and shut case of being a syndi, he and his meta friends repeatedly attacked my decision over comms, in person, and then in OOC in the next round. I was just doing my job. I don't give a shit about red texting antags. Yet despite everything these people treated me as if I had something against them. This sort of mentality is what can make this so frustrating sometimes.

Maybe I'll check out Baystation. Anticept you make it sound quite interesting.

[Bxil]

17 minutes ago, Tayswift said:

Maybe I'll check out Baystation. Anticept you make it sound quite interesting.

My exact thoughts.

Paradise is very close to my heart, but I would like to have dangerously heavy RP scenarios, and Para rarely presents them.

[ZN23X]

@Tayswift I'm now dying to be Warden when Tay is Magistrate. :3

I dunno why but I've sorta grown immune to people treating me like shit as sec IC. You sort of have to be especially when sentence people. Eff em. They are the type that will get banned. If they are doing it IC it's because they don't have enough brain cells other to do anything other than hop on the "Shitcurity wagon". Honestly if they were giving you hell OOC for it, AHELP it. They'll either have thier behavior corrected or won't be here anymore.

We gotta be tough in sec @Tayswift! Don't let em get to ya. That's half the battle!

Edited June 6, 2017 by ZN23X

[shazbot194]

32 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

@Tayswift I'm now dying to be Warden when Tay is Magistrate. :3

I dunno why but I've sorta grown immune to people treating me like shit as sec IC. You sort of have to be especially when sentence people. Eff em. They are the type that will get banned. If they are doing it IC it's because they don't have enough brain cells other to do anything other than hop on the "Shitcurity wagon". Honestly if they were giving you hell OOC for it, AHELP it. They'll either have thier behavior corrected or won't be here anymore.

We gotta be tough in sec @Tayswift! Don't let em get to ya. That's half the battle!

I don't know why, but I have yet to have a terrible experience as security on Paradise as P.A.T.C.H., maybe I am being too nice, I even got several people to turn themselves in by talking to them.

That being said, I am thinking of going back to goon somewhat after hearing what @Anticept and @Ziiro said. It sounds like a lot of fun not having green texts but rather just some good fun RPing and maybe fighting or maybe helping an antag. And if we want something like that for Paradise, we really should work to not having set objectives and/or maybe loosening up some of the restrictions. Its not like antags don't already go on muderfests when they can, I.E. Ares as a vamp.

[Tayswift]

@ZN23X thanks for the support! Yeah, I'm used to people being shits when I'm sec (though thankfully as pod pilot I avoid the most of it), but I kind of view magistrate as separate from security. I mean, magistrate isn't even involved in capturing you or anything, just examining all the evidence and determining the sentence. And during that shift I had deployed IAAs to investigate numerous prisoner complaints as well as freed a perma prisoner for wrongful imprisonment (who turned out to be a hijacker, LOL). So I was far from being on sec's side.

Anyways, sorry for derailing the thread. I figure it's my job to get it back on track. So regarding the whole enthrallment thing, I think I like where vampire enthrallment is. Maybe reduce to 250 or something, but the point of vampire enthrallment is that you have to be careful about who you pick as what basically will be your partner. If we lower the cost and make it curable by holy water it'll just be cult/slings all over again. Objectives should clear on the vampire's death though. I've seen plenty of times where a thrall is super confused what to do after the death of its master.

@IK3I I really like the chart and everything but I think you should also consider more radical changes than just rebalancing abilities. I liked a lot of the ideas from this thread, especially the ones inspired by Vampire the Masquerade.

[IK3I]

In regards to that, I'm working on something based on all the vamp related suggestions right now, but it'll take a little bit to actually have something presentable. When I finish the next phase of reimagining/reworking, this will be the first place it gets posted.

 

Also, all the abilities the vamps currently have do have a cohesive picture once rearranged, but they force a certain same old same old playstyle. My goals this time around will be to continue with the routes discussed previously, however with the following additional goals:

1. Add more choices to the vampire from a playstyle perspective. Quiet and manipulative focus may mean you forgo your more directly lethal options.
2. Give vampires new objectives to make playstyle choice more meaningful.

Edited June 6, 2017 by IK3I

[IK3I]

Okay, this is gonna be a long one but it sums up the sort of direction I'd like to see vamps go as antags. It's pretty much a list of changes and some examples of powers at the end. Still need to finish the power tree, establish pricing, and balance out the various options once everything is laid out.

On blood draining:
Blood level directly affects drink rate with minimum 5 units at 40% or less
Heart being stopped defaults to 5 units
Visible message every cycle
Drink strategy modified via drinking toggle verb/button

On powers:
Power tree unlocking on various blood milestones to allow different playstyles or objectives

Power packages purchased with total blood

Package trees have core mechanics but require greater investment at later tiers

Certain abilities unlock at milstones of true total blood regardless of packages

Initial power package chosen from narrow selection similar to mining vouchers

Literal power progression in the sense that some abilities just outright upgrade lesser forms of themselves similar to rejuv+, but for active abilities to cut down on clutter
    Ex. Summon bats -> Summon swarm -> Summon bat'sie

On objectives:
No more total blood objective, It's arbitrary and doesn't add anything a successful vamp won't already have.

Drop objective count to one with vamps having grand schemes to complete rather than the mundane tator objectives.

Grand objectives could be things like the following:
Become the Captain and leave aboard the shuttle bridge.
Destroy the station with a nuclear device, you must survive.
Shroud the station in perpetual darkness.

On new power tree

Standard powers (in no order): 
Vamp Vision  (thermal)
Vamp Vision+ (xray)
Holy Defense (holy ground defense)
Holy Defense+ (holy water defense)
Holy Defense++ (chaplain defense)

Starting Package Choices (can unlock others later for blood)[choice discounts some packages]:

Cunning {
Hypnotize (stuns and mutes for fraction of channel duration up to cap)
Conceal (hides identity in darkness and for a brief time after entering light)[toggle]
Clean Drink (no visible message)
}

Rage {
Glare
Gouge (Causes target to scream, then mutes them for a short duration while causing heavy bleeding and moderate brute)
Gorge (Drains blood significantly faster, but more is wasted in the process)
}

Will {
Enrapture (Causes target to do as you say. Breaks if target is touched, a set time elapses, or you lose sight of eachother)
Shout (You are a living megaphone. You have made everyone deaf. Good Job.)
Casual Drink (looks like a hug, slower than normal drinking)

Package list (WIP):

Mobility {
Sprint (A burst of speed)
Recover (Removes stuns)
}

Mobility 2 {
Vault (Tables and similar obstacles don't block you) [toggle]
Recover+ (Adds stun reduction)
}

Mobility 3 {
Mist Form
}

Darkness {
Shroud of Darkness [toggle]
Shadowstep
)

Darkness 2 {
Dark Embrace (Applies Shroud affects to grabbed mobs)
Corrupt light (causes light to emit darkness, usable on any electronic light)
}

Darkenss 3 {
Project Shadows (Shrouds large designated area in impenetrable darkness for brief time)
Shadow form (Dodge a large portion of attacks while in darkness, upgrades shroud)
}

Influence {
Capture Soul (Turns victim into a ghoul [Obviously undead, not very smart], costs 100 total blood)
}

Influence 2 {
Enthrall (Brings victim under your influence fully, costs 150 total blood)
Unshakable Will (increases number of ghouls you can control for each thrall you control)
}

Influence 3 {
Lesser Vampire (Creates a lesser vampire with limited influence capabilites. [Helps channel your influence, increasing your own as it grows in power. If it should gain more influence than its master, it will get an objective to overthrow and kill said master however.] Costs 300 total blood, limited to 1)
Imdominatable Mind (Increases number of thralls you can control)
Vampiric Voice (Enables you to broadcast your voice to all those under your influence)
}

Influence 4 {
Total Control (Enables you to use influence abilities through mindshields)
Vampiric Mind (Makes total blood directly affect maximum thrall counts
}

Edited June 7, 2017 by IK3I

[Tayswift]

This is amazing. I love how well thought out all of these ideas are. Would there be any limit on the total number of trees you can go down? Or would vampires be able to literally ascend to godhood?

[IK3I]

That's ultimately a balance issue, in theory, one would not be able to acquire everything simply because there's only so much blood you could acquire in two hours, That being said, the idea is that you would only be limited by how crafty you are. For balance reasons however, static increases in package cost should probably be implemented after x number of purchases.

[Teyren]

This is a interesting refocus on the Vampires, who play out like mirror-changelings without the usual ability to take place as their victim; they play with the usual stealth objectives with genomes replaced with blood. I think it's interesting instead of having a fluid list of abilities it's more tree-based, different with the tiers opposed to the more fluid nature of clings. This changes the focus of their objectives to be stealth-inclined early but reaching for a an ambitious self-entitled goal (quite vampire like). Though, doesn't that almost make them almost follow with similar Shadowling objectives without the end-game win button?

EDIT: I also like the bonuses and mechanics regarding thralls, as it currently stands it can just be more useful to just stealth kill some crew and continue on like nothing happened.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Teyren