PJB3005 Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 Ok, I'll play by your rules. No shit flinging, forum post before PR, a "proper" argument. We should remove the icon in OOC for BYOND members. We shouldn't endorse BYOND in any way, as all money goes to Lummox, who is essentially holding the engine hostage without properly improving it, but rather maintaining it with hack job and poorly designed systems. The result is showing, 511 is buggy, getting things to work as a developer is painful, and actually important reworks and issues are being overlooked. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJB3005 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 Also I would like to mention that the recent issue created by outbools on GitHub has nothing to do with me, I don't even know who that guy is but he clearly supports me. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 The maintainers and head admins have specifically stated "no". Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJB3005 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 Just now, Spacemanspark said: The maintainers and head admins have specifically stated "no". Which was after an argument that consistent of shit flinging and was mostly attacking my method of proposing the change. I say we have the actual proper discussion here. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
James5734 Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 1 minute ago, PJB3005 said: Which was after an argument that consistent of shit flinging and was mostly attacking my method of proposing the change. I say we have the actual proper discussion here. What was so improper about what Spark said? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJB3005 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) I wasn't arguing about what sparks said. I was saying that the maintainers and headmins should bring forth their reasoning properly. Edited June 5, 2017 by PJB3005 Typo Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
necaladun Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 I don't think calling holding it hostage is fair. I'd love the engine to be open source, sure, but these methods are questionable on methods and effectiveness. Activily choosing to disendorse byond - which it now would be - would be a very stupid move for us. We currently are gaining from byond with no cost to ourselves. A tiny in game advertisement in game seems more than fair. Hell, if byond had a steady income it could even expand to more than 1 guy one day. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJB3005 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 You have to keep in mind that without lummox, we'd have gained a ton more already. He is the single handedly the reason for tons of pain and why developing DM code is so hard. You are having a cost though. For one thing if BYOND used threading then server hosting costs would already drop tremendously, but that's dreaming. You have to remember that if you're not paying, you're the product. You're already paying with ad money that pops up whenever you have to reconnect because your viewport froze. Also, lummox has actively refused volunteer work under NDA from some extremely well respected BYOND members. I doubt he wants a second employee. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
necaladun Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 It could be better is not a cost. Until someone shows an actual working alternative, disendorsing byond is all risk with no real gain. It's a pretty big leap to say to openly disendorse byond will lead to us getting open source. There seems to be some missing steps. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJB3005 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 I wasn't talking about open sourcing it, it would be more "Lummox, if you want support, you need to show there is something to support" Support him when he shows that he genuinely can write something other than poorly thought out hacks. This is rewarding somebody 101. At the current rate of development BYOND is just gonna collapse in on itself. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
necaladun Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 We really can't get behind a campaign started the way you did there. If anything I'd prefer cross server fundraising for byond for specific coding goals than to start out with a passive aggressive approach communicated via prs and reddit posts. The idea of punishing lummox seems risky, and a bit mean. We don't know his or byonds finances or situations, and reducing the income could result in less time being dedicated to it. 1 Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJB3005 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 I'm fine with bounties for BYOND features, but the bounties should be placed after important issues. Not the kind of features Lummox is currently chasing.This is the kind of "if he wants money he has to show that he can make something worth money" I mean. Lummox treats BYOND as a full time job, I believe. And BYOND Software is a company, so you treat it like one. I suppose I could make a post on the forums to say "we need to turn this engine around. Seriously." but I highly doubt he'd listen anyways. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
necaladun Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 A full time coders wages sound pretty hefty for byond. That doesn't add up to me for the number of players etc, but I havn't checked. Without any evidence it'll work all I know is that it will decrease the attention to ss13 that lummox pays. A single post on the forums would likely do little. An email to him from multiple donors saying why they cancelled their subscription would, however. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJB3005 Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 Quote A full time coders wages sound pretty hefty for byond. That doesn't add up to me for the number of players etc, but I havn't checked. BYOND makes money from ads and cuts from anything involving money and BYOND too, I believe. Quote A single post on the forums would likely do little. An email to him from multiple donors saying why they cancelled their subscription would, however. Ah, see, now you get it. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/10495-remove-byond-membership-icon-from-ooc/#findComment-86960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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