Give Internal Affairs Agents more power

[Tomar_Brindsbane]

What is the class that rarely gets picked? We all know it. It's the internal affairs. It is basically like playing a Civilian with Security access. Why? Because IAAs have basically no power. The way they're described in the Wiki is closer to a possible workhorse of the Head of Personnel, but they have really limited access to the station even though they're supposed to look after the crew. Nobody really goes to the IAA either because people know that because of the limited power that this position has - it's entirely pointless instead the more reasonable thing to do would be to go to the Head of Personnel. This is also what I heard when I had a dispute with another person "Go to the HoP if you disagree."

Unfair demotions, departments not doing their jobs, ect. are so very common in Paradise Station but still nobody really thinks twice of contacting the IAA because the IAA is a useless position. Because they have no access it means that they can't really look into disputes either and lead investigations, because they're situated so far away from HoP it means that even if they find people who are mismanaging their jobs - they still can't really do anything about it. You'd have to badger the departments for maybe a guest pass, but even that is so rare to get. If they have to go with the often overburdened HoP with all manner of problems (and HoP rarely ever use the IAAs to investigate either).

That is why I think that the IAA needs to have powers more similar to those of the Head of Personnel. They need at least basic access to all departments so he can get inside and he also needs to have the power to at least suspend a person from their job (such as maybe a timed ID lock?).

I also don't see the reason to merge titles such as Lawyer or Public Defender with this title, yes - lawyers look into civil disputes as well but lawyers operate from the law where breaking it can have serious and profound consequences. In SS13 Paradise Civil disputes are rarely more than a minor crime and might suffer a person what... 10 minute brig time? Real world laws are also large, complex and actually cover civil disputes. If you look in the wiki there is very, very little work having been put into the matters of proper procedures within the departments and there is basically nothing about civil disputes in Space Law. Also since most rounds cover around 2 hours or less - it means that IAAs don't have the time to make as large and comprehensive investigations of disputes of the departments as their job description demands.

That is why I suggest these changes to the IAA:

• He gets the ability to suspend an ID for any person that isn't part of command for up to 10 minutes, but not to demote anybody.
• He has basic access to all departments, but maybe not the wings (he might be able to walk into science but not into Robotics, walk into medical but not surgery, walk into cargo and mining, ect). This would mean that he actually has the ability to reach and establish contact with the personnel aboard instead of having to rely on people having the initiative to contact him (why would they - when HoP is a better choice?)
• The IAAs' superior are the Head of Personnel and their office should eventually be moved closer to HoP so they and HoP can actually establish contact and actually do their jobs with some semblance of effectiveness.

I think this would still make him somewhat weaksauce but it would definitely allow him to actually do his job instead of forcing him to be some random guy with a briefcase and sunglasses.

[FPK]

I'll throw in my two bits as a long time IAA player.

It's weird to think about, but the IAA really is an underling of the HoP. While the IAA is supposed to answer to the magistrate, the IAA also benefits from having solid connections with the NTR, HoP, and Captain. The NTR, because the NTR is meant to focus on SOP and make sure that the station is running according to NT's standards, which falls under the IAA's duties. HoP, because the HoP manages demotions, and it's good to have a connection with the HoP for when someone needs to be demoted. Captain, because the captain can authorize a demotion for anyone, and the captain is typically one of the last people to contact before contacting CC. The connections the IAA should be making with command are usually neutered by the IAA's strong connection with the Magistrate/SL.

38 minutes ago, Tomar_Brindsbane said:

If you look in the wiki there is very, very little work having been put into the matters of proper procedures within the departments and there is basically nothing about civil disputes in Space Law. Also since most rounds cover around 2 hours or less - it means that IAAs don't have the time to make as large and comprehensive investigations of disputes of the departments as their job description demands.

A very large majority of the community underestimates how long it takes to write a solid report, move it through the proper channels, then have it enforced by those in power. Enforcing/seeing an output from a single report can take anywhere from ten minutes to more than half an hour.

I don't know about suspending IDs. Perhaps if the IAA can cite a reason as to why, then yes, but there's too many shitty IAAs and very little ways to screen for shittiness, aside from reactionary measures like banning IAAs for abusing what very, very little power they have. It's a good idea, and something that could be very powerful in the hands of responsible IAAs, but I would rather have that power be available for the HoP/Captain.

From an IAA's perspective, I support basic access. Any agents abusing that access to steal shit from departments will very quickly get banned, considering how important the role is from an OOC standpoint (A frequent response to adminhelps is, "It's an IC problem". If the IC channels for solving such a problem are blocked by greytiding IAAs, it completely defeats the point of the system). Having basic access would benefit proactive agents, and would encourage agents to leave the office and actually go looking for work to do. That's not to say that agents should be sticking their noses in every damn department and every minor dispute, but a good agent knows how much effort to put into a case, and when to step back and not bother.

On the other hand, even security doesn't get basic access for all departments. Security has all the reason to have this access, but it's limited to only the HoS. I personally don't think this makes sense from an IC perspective, but it's the admin's choice, and there's not going to be any change to this unless they come together and agree on the change. It's clear that community opinion makes little difference in this regard. However, giving basic all access always presents an inherent risk, for very obvious reasons. Imagine if the clown had basic all access...

As for the IAA becoming a direct underling of the HoP... As I said before, the IAA is more like a foster child, who gets bumped around from parent to parent. I used to support having the IAA be under the joint control of the magistrate and NTR, but now I think the IAA really doesn't need an overseer. If there's a concern for the IAA abusing their power, the captain/NTR/HoS could approve their dismissal, depending on the infraction.

In short, IAA IMBA, volvo rito blizzard admins plz

Edited June 8, 2017 by FPK

[ZN23X]

I always tell criminals to contact  IAA of they think SOP is being breached or they are being treated unfairly.

[Tayswift]

I haven't played magistrate too much but when I did, it was super handy to have a competent IAA (thanks Takk!) who I could assign to various investigations that needed to be done, but that I was too busy to do myself.

[ClockworkRuse]

I can give a little bit of my own experiences from playing Zip Reed:
 

What I've found is that when I play IAA, my experience is largely based around who is command and how you interact with them. If the heads are willing to hear me out, I've had much more fun as an IAA because I've felt like I was able to impact. Warden trying to open the armory on code blue? Say something politely over the sec channel. Chances are someone else will chime in if you've made your introductions. You aren't there just to ensure that space law and SoP are being followed, you're there to protect people from the punishments from not following them.  Of course, if that same warden handing out lethals on code tells you that they are the law and you should fuck off? You write a report and send it to the heads. Even a PDA message can go a long way in a lot of cases. I've had plenty of Captain's tell me that they didn't know something was going on/weren't okay with something going on that have stepped in. I usually say something about IAA being on station over comms and that if anyone has any concerns, they should come talk to me. A lot of problems that an IAA faces could be solved by just communicating.

 

I honestly don't agree that the IAA is a useless position or underpowered, it's just a very difficult role to play. For an IAA to be really effective, there has to be enough time to go through the proper channels and make your presence known. I've had more success trying to play an advisor than anything else, just trying to chime in politely over comms.  I don't feel like giving them access to suspend ID's is a good idea, because ultimately what will happen is that security will ask them to use that power for their valid hunting and the IAA should no part in that, besides do you really want to give the clown the possibility of shutting down IDs? Because one tabled IAA and suddenly security can't open doors.

 

Letting them disable ID's isn't going to let them ensure SoP or Space Law are being followed, giving them access isn't going to do much either. Most of the time, if you just ask, someone will let you in anyways. But do you really need to be in engineering making sure that they are doing their job? Do you have to babysit the chef to make sure they are producing at least three dishes every twenty minutes? With basic access you could walk by and see things like that. Hell, you can wait in your office until you hear people being pissed over comms before you go check anything out. And even then, just talking to people and feeling the situation out should be enough to get things to go somewhere.

 

As far as answering to HoP? I could see that. I've seen a magistrate like.... five times. If that. Maybe if an IAA answers to HoP in regards to matters of SoP breaches and a magistrate in regards to Space Law? That would work.

[Tomar_Brindsbane]

2 hours ago, ClockworkRuse said:

I honestly don't agree that the IAA is a useless position or underpowered, it's just a very difficult role to play. For an IAA to be really effective, there has to be enough time to go through the proper channels and make your presence known. I've had more success trying to play an advisor than anything else, just trying to chime in politely over comms.  I don't feel like giving them access to suspend ID's is a good idea, because ultimately what will happen is that security will ask them to use that power for their valid hunting and the IAA should no part in that, besides do you really want to give the clown the possibility of shutting down IDs? Because one tabled IAA and suddenly security can't open doors.

I'm quite puzzled by these arguments. Do Security go to Head of Personnel to demote people as it is right now? How would suspension of ID:s be in the interests of security when they most often tend to target people who have very limited access anyway? And the argument about clowns doing this or that isn't a strong one either. If a clown is shutting down ID:s (or injecting food with morphine as they tend to do right now) then the clowns are self-antaging. The line between self-antag and a prank can be a thin one and clowns frequently cross this line yes, and this means that clowns needs to be scrutinized much more for their actions.
 

2 hours ago, ClockworkRuse said:

Letting them disable ID's isn't going to let them ensure SoP or Space Law are being followed, giving them access isn't going to do much either. Most of the time, if you just ask, someone will let you in anyways. But do you really need to be in engineering making sure that they are doing their job? Do you have to babysit the chef to make sure they are producing at least three dishes every twenty minutes? With basic access you could walk by and see things like that. Hell, you can wait in your office until you hear people being pissed over comms before you go check anything out. And even then, just talking to people and feeling the situation out should be enough to get things to go somewhere.

When you mention engineering you mention a department that tends to have it's members roaming the station so you're talking here about the one specific department where the access would be the least helpful, but if you instead think of getting into science so you can talk to their wings when they shut their blinds or into medical quickly so you can look at what the geneticists are doing then this line of thinking becomes more clear; sometimes you just need to reach the stations to establish contact with people, especially if they're hiding within their own department wing to avoid the consequences of their actions. There are so many wings within the departments which are just not at all easily accessible from the main corridors.

By simply letting them disable ID:s wont necessarily help them ensure SoP or Space Law but it will give them some leverage over the normal crew to remind them that he does have some personnel management power. I do understand that that's not how many people imagine the IAA because people tend to see him as a "space lawyer" and regular lawyers don't really suspend people from their jobs, but that's the issue of terminology - an IAA isn't a lawyer and the limited scope of Paradise Station's space law doesn't really require lawyers (or magistrates) to begin with as the laws fairly simple to understand. It is mainly the SoP that needs enforcement because departments are very likely to breach the SoP and it's the departments IAAs are meant to overlook and can make some serious positive impact on - not prisoner processing of 10 minute time-outs for bored civilians.

That is just a suggestion though. I'm not sure of what powers an IAA should have - but they ought to have something more than faxing central command which is something they don't really get to do.

 

2 hours ago, ClockworkRuse said:

As far as answering to HoP? I could see that. I've seen a magistrate like.... five times. If that. Maybe if an IAA answers to HoP in regards to matters of SoP breaches and a magistrate in regards to Space Law? That would work.

I really do think so. The IAA really does need closer ties to the HoP, preferrably by moving the IAA's office closer to the HoP (or vice versa) and giving both of these some shared space so they can establish contact and discuss personnel management. The issue on personnel management is it's own huge issue in the game but I believe that's just because of player incompetence such as coroners not reporting deceased crew, no oversight, HoP being slow to fill vacant positions, ect.

[Landerlow]

I would like to see the IAA get more power, even a bit, so that they have more ways to play properly. I have, in the past, when I played IAA, through roleplay investigation and a good report th the HoP, gotten a botanist fired because he was doing absolutely nothing and made a workplace hazard by (accidently?) shocking the botany vendor(s).

[BiberDark]

On 9.6.2017 at 0:37 PM, Tomar_Brindsbane said:

really do think so. The IAA really does need closer ties to the HoP, preferrably by moving the IAA's office closer to the HoP (or vice versa) and giving both of these some shared space so they can establish contact and discuss personnel management. The issue on personnel management is it's own huge issue in the game but I believe that's just because of player incompetence such as coroners not reporting deceased crew, no oversight, HoP being slow to fill vacant positions, ect.

Why not put the IAA in the room north of the hop office, it is almost never used anywa. So he is near the HOP office and has a better line of communication to Command.

[FPK]

I need to make a longer post to this thread, or even make my own thread on my thoughts about the IAA role, but...

8 minutes ago, BiberDark said:

Why not put the IAA in the room north of the hop office, it is almost never used anywa. So he is near the HOP office and has a better line of communication to Command.

Shoving the IAA into a closet doesn't seem like the best idea.

[Tomar_Brindsbane]

Just now, FPK said:

I need to make a longer post to this thread, or even make my own thread on my thoughts about the IAA role, but...

Shoving the IAA into a closet doesn't seem like the best idea.

I thought it seemed like an interesting idea, maybe they could change the room to have a window and a better entrance as well? The other option would be putting the IAA in the NanoTrasen Rep's office and letting the rep go somewhere else.

[BiberDark]

Actually, I meant the lounge

[SideCat]

Just make trial finally usuable. If someone is getting senteced to be executed or get to perma-prison he must be send to trial first if there's any IAA or Magistrate on the shift.

[FPK]

2 hours ago, SideCat said:

Just make trial finally usuable. If someone is getting senteced to be executed or get to perma-prison he must be send to trial first if there's any IAA or Magistrate on the shift.

Trials are usually a huge waste of time. If you want a full blown trial for every prisoner, the process for every trial goes something like this:

1. A trial is declared. A judge, defendant, and prosecutor must be drafted from legal or security.

2. The defendant and prosecutor must collect as much information surrounding the case as they can BEFORE the trial starts. Attempting to use witnesses in court is perhaps one of the most unreliable things about trials in this game, and results in a huge waste of time for everyone involved. Witness testimonies, gathered from the crew and security, need to be recorded, analyzed, then collected for BOTH sides to use. Things like physical evidence need to be properly scanned and the report submitted to the legal office, to be made available to both sides as well. The defendant needs to talk with their client, and the prosecutor needs to talk to the security officers who made the arrest (however, this is usually done with the witness testimonies).

3. Once all the information has been gathered, the trial can start. The defendant, the accused, the prosecutor, the judge, and a court officer all need to be present for the trial. If either side is going to use a witness, that witness must be present for the entire trial, and kept in security. All observers of the trial must be kept silent, aside from whispers. If an observer causes a disruption, they should be arrested for creating a workplace hazard, and removed from the court. Go check out LSOP for how the rest of the trial should go.

4. Once the trial ends, the sentence is passed, and everything has been said and done, it's been at the very least thirty minutes. Justice has been carried out, at the cost of several people's time, which most likely could have been used elsewhere to much greater effect.

 

[Tomar_Brindsbane]

@FPK @SideCat
I second that. It isn't even especially common that trials take place in real life, and when they do it's only when the evidence is circumstantial or when there's a high profile case (just like in SS13). Most often lawyers and prosecutors sit down with the accused and decide preemptively how to plead and for what punishment. It is only when these talks can't be resolved in a good way where there is actually a trial.

If you wanna play a Lawyer it's best to just sit in prisoner processing and hear all the cases that comes in and chime in on the conversations between security, leadership and the accused and act as a sort of mediator or councilor. Relevant questions is who was the injured party, how was the party injured and when did this happen? Security should be able to answer both the first questions and from that you might be able to negotiate back and forth.

As it is right now though, the sentences are too low to justify trials. The highest a sentence can be would be 2 hours anyway so even a quick trial would be a massive drain of resources to possibly prevent very little harm to be done. I think the sentences are too short in general to even justify catching most criminals.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Tomar_Brindsbane

[necaladun]

Re: disabling id's.

The issue here is getting the id. If the crewmember is being shit its rare theyll hand it over.

If it was somehow able to be done remotely this will be mainly used against antags instead of crew and would have some pretty massive balance changes.

[BiberDark]

I stated a long time ago, id´s should be remotely disable able. And this should be possible for the respective head of the department or the AI/Captain /HOP.

A real Antag would not stop this, so there is no balance problem. But it would greatly improve department work , if the CMO or RD is finally able to fire incompetent and lazy people on his own. Mostly this people vanish into thin air and are never to be found but they still have there access.  And it would be also able to stop a rouge head with all access if you can disable his id remotly.

You can add a barrier for Command Level Access ID´s , so the AI has to approve the invalidation of the serialnumber of the specific id. 

My proposal would be:

- every ID has a logged serial number

- the serial numbers can be requested and listed at the Hop console ( special console in  all department heads offices and the IAA office )

- the serial numbers of all employees in a specific department  can be requested and listed in the heads office

- the AI has a list of all serial numbers on the station, due to RFID magic in the station doors.

 

It works the same way as the request console in cargo.

{normal workers // not command}

- Heads/ HOP( maybe IAA)  selects a specific person to fire with a descriptions of the reasons

- The Head can then select to approve or deny this request / if there is no head the AI can do this as well

- if the request is approved the serial number of the ID is remotely disabled ( there should be two option reset  to civilian or complete removal of all access invalid) 

- ( the AI or Head enters the serial number into the console and clicks on the specific button [2 minute cool-down]

- this process is automatically printed out in the IAA office , so he can check and archive this files. Also he can see if it was a legit reason or not (check of SOP) --> also this stops one from secretly removing access from the complete staff)

 

{command}

- Captain or Hop has to request the removal of a head 

- they need two Command ID´s to start this process or the approval of the AI  (the AI is the control instance, on the basis of the actual laws / or if there are no other heads around - dead /lost/ kidnapped...)  

- if the instance approves the request the id is invalid (see above)

- a copy of this is send automatically to the IAA for check and balances 

 

{ special case HOS} OPTIONAL

- the Head of Security can request a temporal invalidation of a specific ID (15 minutes) in case of prosecution. For this there has to be added a reason and listed crimes of the person in the security database

- as always a copy of this process is automatically transmitted  and printed in the IAA office (for checks and balances)

- is there is no HOS the AI has to approve this request (or Captain if available)

 

 

REASONS

- the IAA always gets a printed copy of this event  -- > this will allow to identify misbehavior of Heads /Captain /AI

- the IAA has more work to do he can start an investigation is somethings seems fishy, or he thinks a specific head is incompetent 

- the IAA is the second and final control instance

- the IAA has also a request console for ID Invalidation

- the AI is a helper and supports the specific heads in there work and is a first control instance 

- It is assumed that the AI has a general overview and is neutral ( Laws , and this laws could be checked easily )

- nobody can secretly do this there are always printed copies of this event , with the ID who allowed this to happen and a specified reason.

- it will greatly improve the efficiency of a department, lazy, incompetent or misbehaving elements can be removed effective 

- this is for non antags crime prosecution

 

NEW Antag- tool

- ID Changer (2-3 time use)- changes the ID serial so it can not be found until you use it in a terminal or  doors with special access ( then it gets uploaded into the database and is visible to the AI 

- this can be used to change your and others IDS ( maybe within a specific range 6 tiles ) over RFID

 

NEW CONSOLE

- ID Console allows you to search for serials numbers of specific ID´s by name or department ( depended of your access level )

- you can invalidate a specific ID as head with your ID and AI approval  ( always 2 controls )

- you can temporally disable an ID for a short time 

- for invalidating Head ID you have to be on the bridge and you need 2 Command ID´s + AI approval

 

IAA/Hop - Console

- lists all IDs with respective department and serial number

- for each even you get a printed copy  ( ID / ID Owner / Reason / Time / Approved by (Name) )

 

 

This is so long maybe i should add this a own thread to the forum.

 

 

[Sanpd]

A good way to add more power to the IAA would be to add a printer to their office, increase the amount of paperwork they can output.

On a serious note I do believe the IAA role needs to be reviewed and see if it can be improved on further, there are a lot of good suggestions in this thread.