Alert procedure change

[EvadableMoxie]

21 hours ago, ZN23X said:

Part of the reason for the station currently going to red so quickly is because the required threshold for red is unbelievably low. Green is no threat, Blue is potential threat, Red is confirmed threat. As soon as one antag does something that confirms what type of threat we are dealing with, we are allowed to go red. The goal of this isn't just to give security more flexibility at code red, it's to raise the threshold required to reach red to compensate for the increased power. The station wouldn't go to red unless all hell was breaking loose, so security wouldn't be able to abuse red as much as they currently can.

I understand the intention, but my concern is if this will actually be used that way.

The main issue is there is no objective mechanic for when red alert can and cannot be called.  The only criteria is when 'hell is breaking loose' which is entirely subjective.  And the people making that entirely subjective assessment are the same people with a vested interested in red alert being called.  That's a potential problem unless the admins are stepping in to prevent abuse.  Especially in the initial transitional period until standards are re-established.

Again, I don't think this idea is bad, just that it would be a rocky transition that would require a lot of oversight. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by EvadableMoxie

[SomeGuy9283]

5 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

The main issue is there is no objective mechanic for when red alert can and cannot be called.  The only criteria is when 'hell is breaking loose' which is entirely subjective.  And the people making that entirely subjective assessment are the same people with a vested interested in red alert being called.  That's a potential problem unless the admins are stepping in to prevent abuse.

Note @necaladun's proposal to make calling red require two IDs + an admin approval, like an ERT.

[ZN23X]

@EvadableMoxie There are plenty of abusable things at security's disposal that cannot be controlled mechanically that the admins already so a good job controlling. We will always have fresh blood that will break the rules but they'll be banned. This will be no different.

I'm fine with it requiring 2 swipes and admin approval like an ERT, as I explained in my original post, this new code red would be used around the same time we'd currently call an ERT anyways.

If you read my whole original post and understand all of it you'd get that this isn't just to make security more powerful. It is easier on the crew and antags early on as we wouldn't be able to go to an early red like we currently can, but easier on security once the station is tilted towards round ending chaos. Currently security has the upper hand early on and antags have the upper hand later. This is to balance that.

Edited June 18, 2017 by ZN23X

[necaladun]

All in all, I think there's some damn solid ideas here that could be implemented.

What would be needed before that is a solid basis of the following:
 

Descriptions of the levels.

Descriptions of the powers for security/law/sop changes etc.

Descriptions of the requirements for these to be established and lifted.

 

Try to aim at a ~15 year old reading level as well, which should get a good mix of young native english speakers but also non-native english speakers. Avoid heavy legal terms, etc.

[FPK]

I like this, adding different alert levels for different threats. Maybe we could have the alert levels be departmental? Medical alert for virus outbreaks, security alert for rampaging traitors, engineering alert for asteroid hits.

[necaladun]

1 minute ago, FPK said:

Medical alert for virus outbreaks, security alert for rampaging traitors, engineering alert for asteroid hits.

Love it in theory, but not sure how it'd look in actual effect. What would an engi alert do that makes it different from code green? (Maybe, engineers can no longer be charged with trespass?). Same for medi alerts, etc.

[FPK]

Departmental alerts would give the department priority over the rest of the crew, with exceptions of other departments currently on alert. All members of a department on alert would be expected to do their best to reduce the alert level, or be considered for demotion for failing to do their jobs. Also, it would help add to the immersion of the setting, beyond just bland general alert levels.

In ESOP, there is a clause that allows the CE to declare an area "condemned". Perhaps the CE could declare an area as being heavily damaged, which makes trespassing in the repair zone a crime (just to keep wanderers out, for their own safety), as well as giving engineers full access to the area.

Medical alert would probably be the most boring, but would help keep doctors focused on their job. Not sure what medical players would want out of a medical alert.

[necaladun]

10 minutes ago, FPK said:

Not sure what medical players would want out of a medical alert.

The biggest thing I can think there - with actual virus etc - is making it legal for them to go around with syringe guns shooting people full of vaccines, or detaining if necessary.

[whiskeyfur]

I think a combination of alerts would have to be doable... it's quite possible to have a medical and an engineering incident... so the alert system might have a problem because setting medical and THEN setting engineering, one will override the other.

Probably the best interim solution is to give the captain more discretionary power. If there's an emergency condition, he can outline in a broadcast to everyone which SOP laws are getting modified for the duration of the alert.

Medical and engineering? He suspends the laws on weapons for medical personal only (and only for the syringe gun), and also tells everyone that engineers are to be given full access.

Violating THAT is a separate charge in itself like someone who refuses to get their shots or a scientist who keeps engineers out of his workplace, both would be facing brig time and potential demotion/firing.

[EvadableMoxie]

17 hours ago, necaladun said:

Love it in theory, but not sure how it'd look in actual effect. What would an engi alert do that makes it different from code green? (Maybe, engineers can no longer be charged with trespass?). Same for medi alerts, etc.

Outbreaks procedures are in desperate need of being updated and clarified.  They still mention radium and diluting anti-bodies which isn't even a thing in the current virology system. There are vague things like: "All infected personnel are to be confined to either an Isolated Room, or Virology;" but nothing about the level of force allowed, or how medical is supposed to actually enforce this.   

If we actually had something like a viral alert where security was supposed to actively detain and quarantine infected it would go a long way toward quarantine procedures actually being followed.  As is, they almost never are.  Even in the rare case medbay goes into lockdown, everyone breaks in anyway.  There's a recent Black Pants Video where a security officer breaks into Medbay during quarantine, so that gives you an idea of how much anyone cares about it. (Granted, there were shadowlings that were kinda of a bigger deal, but still)

Edited June 19, 2017 by EvadableMoxie

[Vivalas]

I like the idea of increased access, and like the sound of increased lethal powers, but I really feel like it would be abused. I main security but recently have taken a break for my sanity and seeing the opposite end of the baton is an eye-opener. 

Increased access is neat since it would really help get around during emergencies. Makes sense IC too since NT wants their station intact and threats dealt with. Privacy has gone out the window at this point.

For lethal force I think there still needs to be clear objective guidelines to application during red. Maybe one or two VERBAL warnings (hailers count), while pointing, etc? Unless the person is already a threat in which case current guidelines already allow lethal force.

On a side note yellow alert sounds silly to me, if we do split red into combat / confirmed threat or whatever, amber alert sounds more ominous and official.

[SomeGuy9283]

@necaladun 

Anything gonna come of this? If we're going with the idea of a two-ID swipe, admin-approved, martial law, some nerd has best put up a PR for it.

[necaladun]

The PR isn't the hard part here - the SoP needs to be done for it first, including the changes to pre-existing alert levels, and working out exactly what it would entail, what the messages would be to the crew, etc.

[Anticept]

I've been just watching to see how things turn out.

From what I've seen:

- NOBODY trusts security. But, that IS a two way street... if you want trust, you have to give it too... Always holding down sec just drives the good players away.

- There is overwhelming support to differentiate red and blue.

I've seen a lot of suggestions here too. Plus one that even tried to read me the SoP book. I've got a couple important points to make:

- You will never get people to do things by the book as long as they think they will get away with it.

- Security is an obstacle to be tackled, as our gamer instict will push, even when we are law abiding. How often do you listen to authority in a game, especially if you don't trust them?

Current SoP, therefore, is pretty much useless. Trying to ask people to stay in their departments for example, it only works about half the time... for a few minutes anyways. But if everyone doesn't stay, then it's still a pointless endeavor.

The reason for taking the kiddie gloves off sec is because when there's a large scale emergency, it becomes more important to keeping order than saving lives. Order is much more effective at keeping people alive, than chaos.

However, about the only thing that motivates greytide to refrain from being shit, is ending their griefing run. Space law is laughably bad in this regard, hardly having more than a slap on the wrist for disruptive behavior. Even with workplace hazard, 15 minutes is nothing compared to the fact that sec is probably too busy to deal with most shenanigans anyways.

However, it is not these shenanigans that going lethal on code red in this suggestion is about. It's about those shitters that push the limits of acceptable to the point where it should be self-antagging.

They KNOW they will get away with it. They know security won't. Let's show them how wrong they are.

[GunDOS]

18 hours ago, Anticept said:

- NOBODY trusts security. But, that IS a two way street... if you want trust, you have to give it too... Always holding down sec just drives the good players away.

Agreed, nobody does trust security. But I personally have become quite tired of the kind of player it attracts. With the current standard of security staff, we need to hold them down. Otherwise, we're gonna end up with more situations where security ends up with security brigging people for little to no reason. I can personally testify to three separate occasions in the past few weeks where I as NT Rep have been brigged for investigating SoP complaints. Removing the constraints on them I feel would increase the frequency of this.

18 hours ago, Anticept said:

- You will never get people to do things by the book as long as they think they will get away with it.

 

I am perfectly in agreement. We need SoP to have "Teeth" the fact it does not have any now, means it can be effectively ignored by most.

18 hours ago, Anticept said:

They KNOW they will get away with it. They know security won't. Let's show them how wrong they are.

I fully agree, I just feel we to keep security under scrutiny as well.

[shazbot194]

1 hour ago, Saul Argon said:

Agreed, nobody does trust security. But I personally have become quite tired of the kind of player it attracts. With the current standard of security staff, we need to hold them down. Otherwise, we're gonna end up with more situations where security ends up with security brigging people for little to no reason. I can personally testify to three separate occasions in the past few weeks where I as NT Rep have been brigged for investigating SoP complaints. Removing the constraints on them I feel would increase the frequency of this.

I kinda have an odd view as I have become buddies with a decent amount of people who play security, but I normally trust security, but I have to say the enforcement of the law and when exceptions should be made is laughable at best. Last week I found about the syndi outpost and how to raid it, so I went there one round and came back a walking armory, picking up even more guns on the way, shooting borers, and no-one even said that what I'm doing is illegal or anything really at all. Then the next round as a scientist, one of my friends brought me a pistol from the outpost, and after shooting a couple spiders that no-one else was dealing with, I had it taken away with the officer who was being very threatening, all this while I had bombs in my backpack that if I told him in a different situation, ie not when he's threatening me and taking away my gun, he most likely would have done nothing. I have even been caught red handed with makeshift shotguns and saws, and no-one bats an eye. It just really deducts from the sever when one round you can be a walking armory practically flaunting all your guns with nothing going on and the next you can't have any weapons to defend yourself from hostile xeno life that is actively/very soon to be attacking people, as this level of difference in enforcement was literally one round apart.

So looking back at it, while I do think having red alert being more or less gamma, I'm not sure I trust some of the player base to properly enforce the rules in a consistent manor. Not with the community and sever rules we have right now.

Edited June 25, 2017 by shazbot194
Added an ending thought.

[Anticept]

All this said, I'd love to see a server rule getting people to tone down the trash talk to security players. A few little jokes is fine, but constantly shouting on the radio, trying to start a riot, and bitching in all caps when you get cuffed is really too much.

All that is SO inviting to new people playing sec. It's fucking unsportsmanlike.

Aurora: we can keep them under a microscope still. But taking some of the cuffs off, I really do think, will help in the long run. Yes, this will result in a surge of ahelps and complaints for a while, until they either learn to stop being shitters, or enough jobbans are issued.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Anticept

[shazbot194]

Just now, Anticept said:

All this said, I'd love to see a server rule getting people to tone down the trash talk to security players. A few little jokes is fine, but constantly shouting on the radio, trying to start a riot, and bitching in all caps when you get cuffed is really too much.

Most certainly, it always makes me a little sad when I see people always doing this.

[GunDOS]

56 minutes ago, Anticept said:

we can keep them under a microscope still. But taking some of the cuffs off, I really do think, will help in the long run. Yes, this will result in a surge of ahelps and complaints for a while, until they either learn to stop being shitters, or enough jobbans are issued.

That sounds perfectly fine to me!

[SomanB]

10 hours ago, Anticept said:

All this said, I'd love to see a server rule getting people to tone down the trash talk to security players. A few little jokes is fine, but constantly shouting on the radio, trying to start a riot, and bitching in all caps when you get cuffed is really too much.

All that is SO inviting to new people playing sec. It's fucking unsportsmanlike.

Aurora: we can keep them under a microscope still. But taking some of the cuffs off, I really do think, will help in the long run. Yes, this will result in a surge of ahelps and complaints for a while, until they either learn to stop being shitters, or enough jobbans are issued.

I'll just quote something I was told in dchat one day, when a string of shitters drove me to not accept reclone after dying as HoS.

"I've won if I make you quit."

 

It's the circle of shittery.  Shitter decides to make life hell on sec. Experienced sec players say "screw this" and quit rolling sec. Newbies to sec, without guidance, turn into shitcurity. Shitcurity causes trouble with Joey Newguy. Joey Newguy says "screw this", and begins to give sec hell.

[JMJ_99]

I like it and would make dealing with annoyances alot easier when theres a serious threat, but the problem i see is that A dodgy captain can just use his two IDs to get to red just like right now except he gets more power. If it does go through The procedure to get to red should be a lot harder, 3 ID swipes for example

[SomeGuy9283]

38 minutes ago, JMJ_99 said:

I like it and would make dealing with annoyances alot easier when theres a serious threat, but the problem i see is that A dodgy captain can just use his two IDs to get to red just like right now except he gets more power. If it does go through The procedure to get to red should be a lot harder, 3 ID swipes for example

 

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 5:17 PM, necaladun said:

The best I could see would be a form of ERT request - that 2 heads swipe for it with a reason, then the admins can accept/deny it. It'd still need some non-ambiguous, well worded criteria that it can be requested in, and more importantly, when it ends. What force can be used extra then also needs to be well defined.

 

[Anticept]

7 hours ago, JMJ_99 said:

I like it and would make dealing with annoyances alot easier when theres a serious threat, but the problem i see is that A dodgy captain can just use his two IDs to get to red just like right now except he gets more power. If it does go through The procedure to get to red should be a lot harder, 3 ID swipes for example

This would qualify as abuse, and a great way to get jobbanned.

[Shotz]

Like many people I'm sure, I see red alert called so often that I've become almost apathetic to it. I like the suggestion of 2 cards plus admin approval to call it in. I'd like to see red alert reserved for more of a "shit has hit the fan all hands to battle stations" type situation. If security is dealing with syndie agents for instance, is that really a threat to the entire station? Should 50+ people be expected to be confined to the bar for the duration of the round because someone emagged a console? Ideally sec could conduct their tator hunts at blue alert and move into red if someone tries to bomb the bridge or hijack the shuttle.