Experimental pAI implant

[Xantholne]

Something I was thinking about for a while that would be pretty interesting to have.

Essentially it functions like this.

• Can provide minor benefits such as minor healing, slightly increased speed, better melee attacks similar to Cortical Borers functionality of providing chemicals
• Works as a Personal artificial intelligence downoaded through the implants activate button interface
• Similar to how holoparasites work it can directly commune with the host, nearby players, and use it's inbuilt radio for radio chatter.
• Software options would be similar to current minus Door Jack for obvious reasons and include beneficial buffs as stated before, potentially some others
• EMPing would silence it like normal pAIs and deal minor brain damage to the host aslong with some burns on their head.
• If the Host was ever decapitated or killed the pAI like guardians would also perish inside.
• Host can wipe their pAI like normal ones through the activate button while the pAI can also wipe itself when need be.
• Cryoing with it active would delete it as normal
• Other benefits it could have is taping in to the Radio headset of the host allowing them to use other keys if they had access such as Command, Security, Syndicate, etc
• Would be made at R&D likely requiring some fairly high engineering and power tech levels, along with some 15-20 sheets of metal, 5 sheets of glass, 5 sheets of gold, 5 sheets of silver, and .5-1 sheet of diamond to create.
• Would be surgically implanted through organ manip on the head
• Does not also get a chassis as it is just an implant in someone's head.

These are entirely theoretical and I can't say for certain how well these would be to code but it would be a nice alternative compared to current pAI and potentially other softwares to try and make it more beneficial for both Antag and non-Antags.

[Rumiluntti]

pAIs are already strong, making them into into even more of a death alarm+ seems rather stupid

[Purpose2]

Have to agree with Rumiluntti here.

[McRamon]

From my perspective, i have interacted with a pai only 2 or 3 times and it never had impact on the round whatsoever, so i would love to see something like that to be implemented. 

I am thinking of this idea more like legal holoparasite without ability to leave host and without any offensive abilities

[Shadeykins]

It's bad enough you can slot them into medibots that can drag people off at lightning speed, let alone MULE bots that can knock people over and run them down.

I would rather see pAI's removed outright before I'd see them buffed.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Shadeykins

[MarsMond]

pAIs are in a strange position. While they are kinda lacking some things that would help them with RP things, they are rather strong as a death alarm+. I figure linking them to their owner like this could allow that when the owner can't call for help, the pAI can neither. Though given that they are riding shotgun, they can focus on the call for help/calling out the attacker while the owner is occupied with combat.

I figure with a muting with the owner, it would be acceptable powerwise in relation to the current one, as the current needs to be salvaged from the body to get it to shut up, while you can't salvage an implanted one. Though i think pAIs need to be overhauled in general, so they become less of a death alarm+, and more of a sentient Personal Data Assistant and companion. Paperwork modules, better record modules, interlinkage to the masters channels, so it can answer PDA/radio requests, things like these that should help making them more into a round-balance unaffecting fun RP thing, which they are supposed to be, is what should be looked into.

[Doukan]

This sounds like the sort of thing that would be great for VIPs but absolutely hell to balance for use by anyone else.

[McRamon]

I imagine it to be the same technology level as x-ray googles, and possibly part of ert equipment or something like that

Edited July 4, 2017 by McRamon

[Xantholne]

4 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

It's bad enough you can slot them into medibots that can drag people off at lightning speed, let alone MULE bots that can knock people over and run them down.

Robot pAI's don't move insanely fast anymore, they're back down to animal speeds which are slower than regular people marginably.

[Dinarzad]

18 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

It's bad enough you can slot them into medibots that can drag people off at lightning speed, let alone MULE bots that can knock people over and run them down.

I would rather see pAI's removed outright before I'd see them buffed.

Militant stances on issues solves nothing and only serves to detract from further discussion as a whole, benefiting no parties.

But, I digress
pAI at present are one of the shittier ways a ghost can come back into the round. Drones can do an build stuff. Positronic brains let you come back as a full-fledged cyborg, and while expensive to print, Robotics STARTS with one. Even spawning as an animal. The amount of times I have seen Ian drag a corpse into medical is sort of ridiculous. That goes beyond mentioning all the plethora of mid-round antag spawns, mostly because those are RNG related rather then reliable, but more often then not you tend to get at least Swarmers or Cortical Borers.
pAI get to talk over general comms only, and supply HUDs they can relay information from to their master, which is useful. The Host Bioscan is nice, other the nthe fact even an un-upgraded medical scanner gives you more information about what's happening. Records are usually useless to every single crew aside the Detective where you can be a mobile forensic's computer. Universal Translator is hardly a game changer, but a fun and still useful module.
That's about it. Them being a "Death Alarm" is... Technically a feature I guess, though more of a byproduct of how pAI are implemented rather then a set in stone intended thing.
And yet it's only pAI that get this "No major round impact!" stipulation. That's frankly asinine, either set a standard or don't, one will do just well, two is excessive.

Secondly, I don't think many people are married to the idea that pAI SHOULD be the ultimate sentient death alarms. I know I personally couldn't give much of a fuck if that was taken out to off-set other ACTUALLY FUN features implemented. When I play a pAI I imagine something like an infomorph (Eclipse Phase, look it up it's baller.) or a Secretarial/Administrative Cortana. Something that actually provides information or can take the boring jobs off their master's hands. A Captain who has put out an order, and a pAI who can then manage logistics over their comms from there while the Captain is having a meeting with the HoS about a prisoner.  A paperwork printer to save time for those beurecratic HoPs that actually use forms. A "LED-light" feature that lets them output light, weaker then a regular flashlight, but a touch more then a PDA light (Hell even smartphones have those.)
Record access might ACTUALLY be very useful if it was more then "Look, don't touch." especially for an overworked Warden, having their pAI attend to THAT side of things.

All of those things are shit that actually lets them INTERACT with their master to be USEFUL in some tangible fashion, without being some ultimate game-changer on their own. You wanna up their protolathe cost so they can't be mass-produced? Fine by me. I'd RATHER pAI were much more advanced equipment that not everyone does or SHOULD have, something a bit more cutting-edge.
You wanna make them not a death alarm? I'm down with it. I'd almost PREFER if they were in the form of some kind of head/brain implant, and when their host goes down, they are rendered mute and blind as well, because they're implanted in the host's brain and seeing through their eyes.
Wanna do both of those? Sure thing, m8.

Is any/all of these easy to code? Fuck nah, this would necessitate a complete and total overhaul most likely.
Are any coders actually keen to take that mantle? Fuck if I know, I ain't in their heads.
Is it a damn sight better then the current notion of pAI? It is in my opinion. If I have to sacrifice the "Death alarm" aspect in exchange for getting access to my master's radio channels or records access to help manage things, or any of the module ideas I pitched out above, then I'll be the first to show up with the ritual dagger for the sacrifice.
Long post is long.

[Shadeykins]

pAI's are already incredibly potent for what they are. Not wanting to see them receive any more buffs that they've already gotten is not a militant stance.

They should not be slottable into anything, let alone people. They're intended to be a role akin to maintenance drones and pets for ghosts to occupy themselves with, yet as it stands currently they directly impact round balance on a consistent basis by acting as Death Alarm+'s, and literally dragging people away from harm, or in the case of MULEs, murdering people.

The fact that they can't be seen while in pockets is bad enough, they don't need to be hidden in people's brains.

[Dinarzad]

6 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

pAI's are already incredibly potent for what they are. Not wanting to see them receive any more buffs that they've already gotten is not a militant stance.

They should not be slottable into anything, let alone people. They're intended to be a role akin to maintenance drones and pets for ghosts to occupy themselves with, yet as it stands currently they directly impact round balance on a consistent basis by acting as Death Alarm+'s, and literally dragging people away from harm, or in the case of MULEs, murdering people.

The fact that they can't be seen while in pockets is bad enough, they don't need to be hidden in people's brains.

Not wanting them buffed is not a militant stance.
Proclaiming "I'd sooner see then removed from the entire game for no one to enjoy ever than to be given anything" IS very much a militant stance, because you're shutting down any and all discussion before it even happens and refuse to even countenance the idea or keep an open mind, and that benefits no one on this server.

And you're willfully ignoring the part where people don't WANT them to be Death alarm+'s and are open to  removing that aspect. And so what if they drag people away is that any different then what a ghost controlling Ian of all things can do? Why is it okay for THAT Ghost role (LITERALLY a pet.) to do it, but THIS role over here can't do it ever no matter what, even though they no longer shackle themselves to a master but to a lawset, and lose all their old perks for the sake of having a physical body worth having. (Securi-bots having been removed that now leaves you with MULES or Medibots in practice.) and I'd also be okay with MULES not being slottable or if slotted in, the mule being unable to murder stuff.

Hell it's even EASIER for Ian or E-N to drag people, that's literally "Join an start doing things." a pAI has to find someone willing to take them, convince that person to build a robot body or get Robotics to build one, and then slot them into it.  It's a feature I have seen used all of maybe 5 times in the past 5 months, ever since the intial craze over the new feature died down.

You're right. Being an invisible alarm in someone's pocket that you have no way to know exists until it starts screaming your name and location and what you just did, is absolutely better then an implant in someone's head that can't scream or see you if the host they are implanted in is unconscious or stunned which takes the antag no extra effort thereby removing or vastly limiting the "Death alarm" aspect. And if he DOES know you have a pAI can EMP that circuit in your brain to cause some issues.
How could I expect this to be at all better for the antagonist.

[Shadeykins]

You're presuming a lot of things. Pets shouldn't be dragging people around either, and often get "job banned" from pet roles when they do it in a way that affects round balance (such as dragging antags). I'm also against pets having the ability to drag, flat out.

So no, you're right. It isn't that much different, and that's why it would make no sense why my stance on that would be different (which sort of defeats your entire point here).

It's still a death alarm+, because while a person is fleeing a pAI can call out the traitor's name and the location with ease. People do not fall instantly unconcious from anything in this game, fullstop. A pAI in the brain is still a death alarm+ that's even harder to do away with, and harder to spot.

I'm flatly against pAI buffs, because they're already incredibly powerful for what they are. If you're discussing nerfs to them, than those are nerfs - not buffs, which clearly I am not opposed to. Being able to hide in someone's brain however, is not a nerf.

[Dinarzad]

I'm not discussing nerfs I am discussing an OVERHAUL. A remake, or re-imagining or whatever it wants to be called.
Not buffs, not nerfs, but both to change what a pAI is to be fun for the pAI and actually something you might want for more then the ability to scream as a crewman.

And you're right, if you agree the pets dragging thing is fucked up, then we absolutely agree on that point. I have personally not seen bans doled out over it, but I've just come back from several months of giving SS13 a break so maybe that's been cracked down on in my absence.

It isn't Death Alarm+ though, it is -objectively- not death alarm+ if you're talking about the idea and not current pAI action. It is no harder to spot then a pAI slotted into someone's PDA or in a pocket (those both being purely invisible from an outside standpoint.) then it is to see an implant in their head (Again, purely invisible.) That's 1 to 1.
Additionally it is EASIER to remove the pAI from play not harder, again, objectively. Nothing stuns instantly the game you say, so you STILL have to wait for the person to be stunned before you can remove the pAI to wipe/destroy the card.
In THIS Scenario though, as soon as the person is out, so is the pAI. No more screaming, it can't even SEE anymore. It can't say where you are dragging the corpse to, or where it's master's body is. All this happens JUST by disabling the implanted individual.

Compare that to stunning someone and waiting for said stun. The pAI begins screaming. The person is zonked out, and NOW you can start to search them for the pAI or drag the body or start the murder-gasm, whatever it is the antag wants/needs to do. The entire time this little shit is screaming bloody murder who you are, what you;re doing where you all are, whatever. This objectively adds additional steps for the antagonist to shut it up, I cannot possibly fathom where you are saying this is a BUFF to the Death Alarm aspect if this is indeed what you mean.

I'm proposing it as an implant because it's the only feasible way I could see linking the state of one mob to another codewise, in the same sense as a Cortical Borer or a Holoparasite.
If you can think of a similar way to achieve such a thing without it having to be implanted into someone, I'm honestly more then happy to consider and debate the pros and cons between the systems. I'm not married t othe notion of an implant, I'd prefer something wearable, but I'm not savvy enough on the code-side of things to say if that's even possible let alone the sheer difficulty.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Dinarzad

[Shadeykins]

The argument that they would be harder to spot as an implant is that presumably they would be incapable of manifesting, and thus always be out of view as they're embedded directly in your skull.

[Jovaniph]

Because this requires surgery and a participating person to be a pAI, I don't see much of a balancing issue. Getting implanted may be either right away or it can take you an entire round if medical or some other person is willing to do the surgical procedure in the first place. The pAI may go afk or leave or become uncooperative, etc.

Of course if this get implemented and abused often because its "overpowerd", it can always get nerfed or removed.

[Rumiluntti]

Trying to balance shit by locking it behind research or saying "it can be nerfed or removed later" is bad.
This is literally suggesting that science could print death alarm++ on demand

[Spacemanspark]

Perhaps the pAI would become incapable of communication upon the implanted dude's death.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Spacemanspark

[Dinarzad]

4 hours ago, Rumiluntti said:

Trying to balance shit by locking it behind research or saying "it can be nerfed or removed later" is bad.
This is literally suggesting that science could print death alarm++ on demand

I guess if you don't count or ignore all the ways people have suggested how to avoid/reduce the death alarm aspect 
Then yes that's exactly what is being suggested.

[Xantholne]

10 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Perhaps the pAI would become incapable of communication upon the implanted dude's death.

I thought I put this in the thing but yeah pAI would die when the host dies. Mutual partnership

[shazbot194]

10 minutes ago, Xantholne said:

I thought I put this in the thing but yeah pAI would die when the host dies. Mutual partnership

You did mention that.

On 7/3/2017 at 8:55 AM, Xantholne said:

Something I was thinking about for a while that would be pretty interesting to have.

Essentially it functions like this.

• Can provide minor benefits such as minor healing, slightly increased speed, better melee attacks similar to Cortical Borers functionality of providing chemicals
• Works as a Personal artificial intelligence downoaded through the implants activate button interface
• Similar to how holoparasites work it can directly commune with the host, nearby players, and use it's inbuilt radio for radio chatter.
• Software options would be similar to current minus Door Jack for obvious reasons and include beneficial buffs as stated before, potentially some others
• EMPing would silence it like normal pAIs and deal minor brain damage to the host aslong with some burns on their head.
• If the Host was ever decapitated or killed the pAI like guardians would also perish inside.
• Host can wipe their pAI like normal ones through the activate button while the pAI can also wipe itself when need be.
• Cryoing with it active would delete it as normal
• Other benefits it could have is taping in to the Radio headset of the host allowing them to use other keys if they had access such as Command, Security, Syndicate, etc
• Would be made at R&D likely requiring some fairly high engineering and power tech levels, along with some 15-20 sheets of metal, 5 sheets of glass, 5 sheets of gold, 5 sheets of silver, and .5-1 sheet of diamond to create.
• Would be surgically implanted through organ manip on the head
• Does not also get a chassis as it is just an implant in someone's head.

These are entirely theoretical and I can't say for certain how well these would be to code but it would be a nice alternative compared to current pAI and potentially other softwares to try and make it more beneficial for both Antag and non-Antags.

I think the idea for something like this would be kinda cool, but I am wondering how it would be balanced with the general theme of ghosts not being allowed to interfere with the round at all. Although I think that is kinda a stupid not-rule since it has lead to drones being meant to ignore everything until they get emaged at which point they just go murder crazy.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by shazbot194
Oops pressed enter too fast

[Rumiluntti]

The implant can start screaming like a maniac the second its holder is attacked.
The whole thing is nothing but a giant buff to pAI that already have too much of an impact in the game in my opinion.
 

[Jovaniph]

1 hour ago, Rumiluntti said:

The implant can start screaming like a maniac the second its holder is attacked.
The whole thing is nothing but a giant buff to pAI that already have too much of an impact in the game in my opinion.
 

Could pAI scream while they are on the holder anyways without being implanted? It can still call out in coms even after the holder dies. How is it a giant buff now?

edit: Basically what I'm saying is what difference does it make if I have it inside me or in my pocket.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Jovaniph

[Tayswift]

Why not just make this version of the PAI a syndicate uplink only thing? That'd probably handle all the balance issues. It would be like a different flavor of holoparasite.

[Xantholne]

I thought about  it for a while and decided Rumi is pretty right that pAIs are death alarms++ which is why I'd say remove Radio/Messanger from the Experimental pAI for balance/(Saving space for more important experimentla functions) which would remove the death alarm+++ concern about it.