Lets finaly nerf EMP damage to IPCs

[shazbot194]

So most people that I have talked to agree that EMP damage is way to high on IPCs, currently, there is no armor that provides protection nor any way to counter emps, and yet it does such massive damage that it can kill in one hit. Even what can be considered a glancing hit can still do 110 damage. Not to mention the two items that can make EMPs for traitors are cheap as dirt, with the emp grenade box being 2 TC for both grenades and an implant and the EMP flashlight being a 1 hit kill that recharges for 6 TC. Almost every antag has some way to make EMPs, and even non traitors can make it with iron and uranium. 

I am proposing that we nerf emp damage to a max of 10 and a minimum of 5 per body part, which would put it about in line with other instakill weapons, like bug spray, although it would still be more powerful due to the fact the damage is instant and not over time. I am also proposing that if that isn't powerful enough,  it also makes IPCs drunk for a couple seconds, this would make them slower at engaging in combat, but not make it so they are instantly disabled and prime for a follow up emp/real beating. 

Edit: I forgot to mention this in the post, The number 10 for max damage isn't coming from nowhere, its exactly half the max damage they currently do as they do 20 damage per limb.

Edited July 10, 2017 by shazbot194

[ZN23X]

There was a post like this recently without the voting and I'll say the same thing I said there. No other race can have have limbs reattached pretty much anywhere with no tools, no other race can be healed with items as common as a welder and cable, and no other race can be more easily revived regardless of how long they've been dead (no limb decomposition, no need for complex medicine that isn't always readily available). Also completely immune to disease.

Every race has weaknesses. Some can't be cloned, some take more damage, some need oxygen and can bleed to death. EMPs wreck electronics. IPCs guts are made of electronics.

I'd be for adding some sort of EMP armor...possibly made by science? An implant maybe? Something xeno can make that applies to armor like heat protection? Both? If we can EMP shield cameras why not apply the same tech to IPCs?

Edited July 9, 2017 by ZN23X

[EldritchSigma]

An upgrade for IPCs making them EMP resistant would be alright. Not outright immune but rather resistant. Maybe so a strong pulse doesnt blow off all limbs and just rather damages it. Or some shielding for their circuits. Maybe go so far by replacing all semiconductors in their circuits with organometallic counterparts which are alot harder to fry via electromagnetic pulses but requiring alot of tech levels and resources to produce to balance it.

[Enginseer-42]

Could just do things the shadowrun way. All circuitry is Fiber Optic rather than purely electrical. On the other hand, the EMP should frag the IPC's power source. Because that IS electrical.

They've got a few moments to scream for help or try to stumble to robotics before the power already in their system runs out and they collapse and 'die'

But yeah, with how stupid easy it is to revive IPC's? Not exactly a problem that EMP's frag them.

[Rumiluntti]

Trying to balance shit by locking it behind research is bad.
IPCs are balanced currently. They have a big weakness and multiple upsides.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Rumiluntti

[scrubmcnoob]

Going point out, as pointed out in the other threads discussing this, is that EMPS are not just meant for IPCs. They are also used for the numerous amount of electronic equipment on the station. I believe @Fox McCloudoriginally pointed this out in one of the threads.

[Ziiro]

It's been brought up multiple times and shot down multiple times.

Options are:

1. Make your own PR with your suggested fix and see how it goes
2. Make your peace with dying instantly to a 2TC item that is undetectable
3. Pick a new race.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Ziiro

[shazbot194]

That was kinda the point was to see how the community on the forums would react before the community at github.

[Ziiro]

8 minutes ago, shazbot194 said:

That was kinda the point was to see how the community on the forums would react before the community at github.

IPC Players: Instant Death is really unfun and annoying.

Non-IPC Players: IPCs can repair themselves anywhere and are reasonably hard to kill permanently, so instant death is balanced.

Maintainers:

Edited July 9, 2017 by Ziiro

[Dinarzad]

Quote

Non-IPC Players: IPCs can repair themselves anywhere and are reasonably hard to kill permanently, so instant death is balanced

Guide to Murder, because it's hard guis.
Step 1: Apply brute force to IPC
Step 2: damage modifer means the IPC is rapidly going to crumple over dead.
Step 3: Do victory jig.
Step 4: Put IPC on table.
Step 5: Use a basic fucking tool kit found absolutely everywhere to pop their chest open and take out their posibrain.
Step 6: Turn the posibrain's speaker off.
Step 7: You just permanently fucking killed the IPC unless they somehow get his posibrain from your bag into his body.
Step 8: Victory Jig for honor and glory.
Step 9: Realize that if you can't do the above with a 2-shot mechanic instead of a 1 shot mechanic, maybe the problem isn't IPCs.

[shazbot194]

8 minutes ago, Dinarzad said:

...

Step 6: Turn the posibrain's speaker off.
Step 7: You just permanently fucking killed the IPC unless they somehow get his posibrain from your bag into his body.
...

Two Fun Facts:

An IPC's brain starts with the speaker off, so step 6 is redundant.

When you debrain an IPC they still count as being alive to the ghost system, so if they didn't ghost out in the seconds you were debraining them, you have literally removed that player from the round fully, as they can only get out by ghosting and giving up re-spawn privileges, which means they can't play at all unless the brain is destroyed or put in something.

Edited July 9, 2017 by shazbot194

[Dinarzad]

Even better/worse.
So the non-asshole guide would be, beat the shit out of the positbrain/flurosulpheric acid the brain.

[ZN23X]

On the note of the drunkenness. I've used an EMP flashlight on an IPC target AS an IPC. Using the flashlight is strong enough to make you experience drunkenness for a moment.

The other IPC went boom.

Edited July 9, 2017 by ZN23X

[Fox McCloud]

If IPC lose their EMP vulnerability or it gets nerfed, then they will have to be nerfed in some other form. No two ways about it.

[scrubmcnoob]

2 minutes ago, Fox McCloud said:

If IPC lose their EMP vulnerability or it gets nerfed, then they will have to be nerfed in some other form. No two ways about it.

So essentially if this suggestion was somehow to go through, it will just make IPCs more like a retextured human race and make them less unique. 

Also they're a machine race. I can't see how we could let them live after an EMP all the while having anything else that is electronic get destroyed by an EMP wave.

Edited July 9, 2017 by scrubmcnoob

[Granodd]

5 minutes ago, Fox McCloud said:

If IPC lose their EMP vulnerability or it gets nerfed, then they will have to be nerfed in some other form. No two ways about it.

Humor me for a moment. Why would this have to be the case?

[Ziiro]

Another post about IPCs

 

My previous post about this in another thread. (The posts after it actually mostly talk about IPCs)

Edited July 10, 2017 by Ziiro

[Dinarzad]

3 hours ago, Fox McCloud said:

If IPC lose their EMP vulnerability or it gets nerfed, then they will have to be nerfed in some other form. No two ways about it.

Diona plant-b-gone buff when in that case?
Or Kidan and bug spray?
Because so far all the races with "Hard counters" take two shots. One puts you into a REAL fucked up state, and the other is typically a death knell.
IPCs are not to pariy with those other races, and if you are going to sit there and tell me IPCs are more powerful then Diona, I am very sorry Fox, but that would be a MAJOR stretch of logic.

Diona have strong melee attacks, they regenerate constantly in Light, are immune to space, don't breathe are effectively immune to radiation. They in exchange are slow as sin and are vulnerable to weed-killer.
Kidan have clawed attacks, in-built body armor, glow in the dark (When naked at least.) and their downsides are no glasses, and bug spray is painful (Last I knew at least.)

IPCs do not breath and are immune to radiation, can have body parts easily replaced and do not need welders. These are their objective upsides.
Everything else is a double-edged sword or a nerf. a Side-grade (As intended)
Chem immunity, means immunity to a lot of meme chem deaths, sure. And also means they have NO form of rapid healing, they cannot be SR'd or Cryox'd or use meth for speed bosts or what have you. They have easier access to "Bandages" with welders and cables but those are slow healing, have to be manually applied to every single body part and in large enough numbers CAN'T heal them, requiring "Surgery" to repair the internal damage.
They are immune to Virus's which also means they can't make use of healing viruses that are made all the time, no brain damage immunity, no constant regeneration with Toxic comp and toxin healing.
They ALSO take hugely increased damage.

This "IPC OP" meme is getting old and stale that salty people use because they can't be bothered to change their "Sick powergamer strats" because it IS an IPC they have to gank instead of a human. If 1 extra click from an antag is 'Make or break' for balance we have bigger issues we need to solve, because this is a stupid argument.
From an antagonist perspective 1 EMP still puts the IPC into a helpless state. If you can't kill a helpless/stunned, near dead IPC, you don;t need to play antag.
From the IPC's perspective 2-shot EMPs, mean you have a ghost of a chance to survive incidental EMPs from not antagonist sources, like the engine or other environmental causes.
On top of all that, nobody has said to LOSE the EMP Vulnerability.
Just to make it match up with every other racial weakness right now, a 2 shot mechanic.

Killing IPCs is NOT hard if you at all think about it, and it's not really any different then killing an organic, aside the lack of chems. If you leave their brain/body around they tend to get cloned, Defibbed or SR'd. Antags should learn to do Disposal.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Dinarzad

[ZN23X]

If EMP gets nerfed then make it so every IPC has to go to robotics for repairs. No more welders and cable coil. Make it so nanopaste and other chems are required to fix thier damage. No more popping limbs back on on any table with no tools. I do play both an IPC AND a human with a mechanical heart. EMP doesn't need to be nerfed.

[shazbot194]

3 hours ago, ZN23X said:

If EMP gets nerfed then make it so every IPC has to go to robotics for repairs. No more welders and cable coil. Make it so nanopaste and other chems are required to fix thier damage. No more popping limbs back on on any table with no tools. I do play both an IPC AND a human with a mechanical heart. EMP doesn't need to be nerfed.

I think making it so IPCs only can be repaired with surgery would be an even bigger nerf then EMPs in some ways, but something that I be wouldn't oppose to because rather then the nerf being an "I win button", its something interesting, and I also wouldn't mind needing wire to reattach limbs much like how you need a hemostat to re-attach organic limbs. That being said, with these it gives up the main advantages of being an IPC, being able to repair themselves, almost putting it down the power curve enough for something else interesting, maybe ultra cold resistance, or a small upgrade system... Honestly, I am just so sick of people killing me with no counters or counter play other then switch race or never step foot anywhere at all dangerous, we might not be able to be killed by most meme chems, but at-least those meme chems aren't area of effect with literally no counter, as not even walls can counter EMPs.

Edited July 10, 2017 by shazbot194

[Dinarzad]

2 hours ago, ZN23X said:

If EMP gets nerfed then make it so every IPC has to go to robotics for repairs. No more welders and cable coil. Make it so nanopaste and other chems are required to fix thier damage. No more popping limbs back on on any table with no tools. I do play both an IPC AND a human with a mechanical heart. EMP doesn't need to be nerfed.

I understand the point of view you're coming from and there's merits to it, but it's being taken WAY too far.
I would be open to making it easier to get the "Internal damage" point on an IPC, but not "That is the only way to heal."

Because bear in mind they take FAR more damage every other species on the station. Imagine if as a human you had no chems to heal with, and every single time you got punched by the clown had to go to surgery. You;d pretty quickly stop playing that race altogether.

Similar happens with Diona. Diona are incredibly strong, but they're so slow in movement, they see barely any play. It doesn't matter how strong it is, if it's UNENJOYABLE to play, nobody will deal with it, even if it's strong.  Only a few people can really tolerate just how slow those guys move.

EMP DOES need a nerf, but not a BIG one. Simply as stated, go from "Click dead" to "Click, Crit. Click, Dead."
The antag impact is minimal, even if you use uronuranium to make an EMP the IPC is still 95% dead, stunned and helpless. Hit him twice and his down for the count.
This is not the moon being asked for here, or a colossal shift of gameplay no matter how many times people try to spin it that way. 

[ZN23X]

I don't see the point in a slight nerf if what you are proposing still leads to you dying but just with an extra click or two. Sounds like alot of work for nothing. Only way I'd see it helping you in these encounters is the split second it might give you to scream for help before dying, but you can't even do that your headset is fried anyways. 

This honestly just sounds like players who are tired of dying and believing that nerfing the most effective method used to kill them will make them feel better about it. Will getting EMPed and then robusted to death immediately after actually make you feel better about dying? You'll have this new outlook on dying of "Well, this was more enjoyable because it didn't take just one hit" Dunno about you but whether I die instantly to EMP, I get stunned and then beaten to death, or killed by some method that IPCs are immune to, it still feels the same to me. I feel helpless, and I think "I hope someone finds me, I hope my killer doesn't destroy or dispose of my body."

[GutTC]

Decision Decision.

Meh. Like said. At least not completely nerf the emp but rather put the IPC into critical and malfunction state and super vulnerable to the next deathblow. Seeing how one IPC explodes or losing limbs that easily from one simple EMP (or brute damage).

Limb upgrades from roboticist might come in handy but with a good price lime bits of diamond and shit to make something that protects you from the emp by "a bit" as armor act. Or an upgrade that makes them resistant against fire and prssure more longer because robots.

Just always remember you are an IPC, a sentient machine with (soft?) metal skeletal build rather than super armored cyborg. The specie that's amazingly great on engineering task and containment like toxin and virus. Know yourself and deal with it. Use your advantages while knowing your great one and simple weakness. Git gud.

[Ziiro]

21 minutes ago, GutTC said:

Use your advantages while knowing your great one and simple weakness. Git gud.

I want you to think about this.

Any one person in could have an EMP implant in them. The EMP implant has a range of roughly 4 or 5 tiles, I think? You cannot stop them from triggering that implant unless they are dead. Better not stand that close to anyone. Ever.

An EMP flashlight requires someone to be on the tile next to you. Which, it is smart to never stand next to anyone, but you can't stop them from drive-by blinking you with it. As I've said before, I've even been killed in a crowded room using this method and my murderer walked away; no one saved me, or even noticed.

There is no counter-play. There is no gitting gud. That's the problem.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Ziiro

[ExGame]

Maybe IPCs are just not supposed to be gitting gud at combat, at all, ever.

Because how they are balanced they seem more like the race that is supposed to work the peaceful jobs, not the dangerous ones and if accidents happen to them while performing these jobs they can easily be fixed. Tough luck if you get involved in combat.