Regarding new station implimentation

[AgileWhisk]

I don't agree with the addition of new stations to any kind of rotation or permanent map swap. I play on paradise station because it's consistent and fun. "We should add a map rotation like /tg/" I don't want paradise station to become like any other server, because if I wanted a map rotation then I would just play on /tg/. It would be very confusing for many people while they have to relearn each map added into rotation, even more so for the new players I tend to encounter every other week who don't even know how to function. I have also heard people talk about having a map rotation would be a lot more work for maintenance and whatnot. Having a map rotation would also mean that anyone that wants to play on the old map would have to wait hours to be able to play on it, meaning people who don't have as much free time due to work or other restrictions wouldn't be able to play on their preferred map. Overall I don't see why we need to have a new map or have a map rotation. 

[Spacemanspark]

58 minutes ago, AgileWhisk said:

"We should add a map rotation like /tg/"

I was the one that stated this in OOC.

I'm probably the person that's been most vocal for the past few years about not wanting to port random wanton things from /tg/.

This won't turn us into /tg/ or lower our standards. Merely change the pace a bit.

58 minutes ago, AgileWhisk said:

It would be very confusing for many people while they have to relearn each map added into rotation

There are a lot of games out there that have several different large maps. Learning the maps can be tricky, but it, as stated before, is a great change of pace and often makes antags reconsider their approach to things. Each map brings a lot of interesting and new content to the table, which opens opportunities for RP and other such fun things.

58 minutes ago, AgileWhisk said:

Having a map rotation would also mean that anyone that wants to play on the old map would have to wait hours to be able to play on it, meaning people who don't have as much free time due to work or other restrictions wouldn't be able to play on their preferred map.

The same can be said about a lot of aspects of SS13. Jobs and antags, in particular, spring to mind.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Spacemanspark

[ZN23X]

I like having multiple maps. I'd even be for having multiple versions of maint on each map (a while back box station had a different maint for a month or so then we reverted to what it currently is, having both randomly would be awesome). I'd also love if the multiple maps could randomize so we don't know what we are getting every round.

Edited July 24, 2017 by ZN23X

[TwoCam]

We kinda need a bigger map for highpop anyway. This will improve the highpop experience.

[Street Eye]

Yeah. I think having a new Map will help Paradise with it's High Population.

Plus I need to try that new map someday.

[Buford]

I'm basic. Not a big fan off it especially when I just recently learned the current map :(.

[Vargh]

I think we should have more maps because it's always nice to explore and learn new places.

But I can't deny I don't  like metastation.

[owenowen101]

Adding a system for map rotation doesn't mean that it's the equivalent of playing on /tg/ station and this feature obviously isn't the only thing that distinguishes the two servers.

In terms of new players learning the game, getting accustomed to map layout is one of the smallest challenges to new players in my experience and doesn't present a big issue when there are detailed maps available on the wiki for you to reference.

I'm not sure people will be especially desperate to play on particular maps and can't see them waiting 'hours' to play, unless the other map(s) in rotation are particularly bad in comparison. In which case, this is an issue with those maps instead of the map rotation feature itself.

I can't really speak to the point on the possible increase in maintenance required. Though I imagine the same could be said about the addition of pretty much any content.

The fact is that before Paradise started using the auto-delister, the server was getting very busy and there were clearly many people who wanted to play on the server. Unfortunately boxstation isn't well suited to accommodating a very high server pop. and this was, as I understand it, the primary reason for its introduction. Bigger and better maps will not only allow more players to enjoy playing on Paradise but it will also add variety, greater replayability and arguably it'll help tackle meta-tactics and/or 'powergaming'.

Edited July 24, 2017 by owenowen101

[alexpkeaton]

To me, new stations completely change the game, in a very good way.  The powergamers here have antag hiding places, ambush locations, telescience setup areas and many many more things determined down to the tile on the current Cyberiad.  A new station not only provides new places to explore, but, in some respects, rebalances the game for everyone.  

[Purpose2]

I guess I should weigh in here as I've been a key (only? ) element in the drive for a map rotation within the coders Github contributors.

Multiple distinct maps do a few things from a gameplay perspective:

• Alters the balance of departments slightly, and enables new strategies
• Freshens rounds providing a new feeling. This novelty will wear off eventually - but it'll still go a good way to making rounds feel less samey.
• Provides new opportunities for bored civilians
• Reduces the ability somewhat to know if a single hair is out of place in maintenance, like people do currently.

I'm a big fan of having multiple maps to keep things feeling fresh and interesting. Its also interesting to watch different strategies get imployed by antags.

Quote

"We should add a map rotation like /tg/" I don't want paradise station to become like any other server, because if I wanted a map rotation then I would just play on /tg/.

I don't think anyone thinks that way, and thats certainly not the objective. If we wanted to be like TG we'd rebase to TG. This seems more like a petty comment that a legitimate grievance so I'll gloss over it.

It does indeed add more things to maintain - but - Metastation, which is what is causing your complaints in the first place, has been in our code (just left to rot and be poorly maintained) for years. I've been taking it upon myself to update it and get it to live-quality. However its already been the case for the last year that changes had to go on both Meta and Box. Ultimately if Meta (or Delta) and subsequently a rotation results in attracting one or two additional contributors its even a net gain.

Ultimately we're a community that trends higher than average with people that do not like change - and as such people get really defensive and even often vitriolic over change... change agents need to be able to progress, and people need to be more patient and give things a chance.

[EvadableMoxie]

18 hours ago, TwoCam said:

We kinda need a bigger map for highpop anyway. This will improve the highpop experience.

I disagree. Neither Meta nor Delta was designed for a 100+ playbase.  That's why you see things like only 1 OR in Medbay, or horrible use of space, like a giant courtroom that will be used almost never, but only 3 brig cells. Neither map was designed with our level of population in mind.

Thankfully, Purpose has done a good job changing the maps to help make them more suitable.  However, I still disagree that a map rotation is inherently better for high pop when the maps we are rotating in were never designed for 100+ players. Just like with Boxstation, we'll be modifying existing stations never designed to handle our population.  Delta has potential to be better since it's bigger but that isn't a forgone conclusion. 

What we'd really need to handle the population issue a map built from scratch with Paradise's population and ruleset in mind... but that's a lot of work. 

Oh and this isn't to say we shouldn't have a rotation (or we should).  Just that I don't think handling high population is a valid argument for doing it. 

[owenowen101]

6 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

I still disagree that a map rotation is inherently better for high pop when the maps we are rotating in were never designed for 100+ players.

This is an issue with the maps in question and not a problem with a map rotation feature itself.

You're right in saying that there are some bottle-necks to population capacity within some of the maps, for example only one operating room in medbay on Delta station. However the maps are undergoing serious revision and adjustment, mostly by Purpose2, to remedy this. I know the brig on Delta station is being completely overhauled, medbay edited and other such places are being altered to fix these kinds of issues.

Delta station in particular undeniably has the size to support a larger server population and I think it's unfair to say such maps will not help address the issue of high pop. based on a look at their original designs. Any design used on the server will clearly not be the verbatim original map and will be sufficiently edited to accommodate the server's needs.

Edited July 25, 2017 by owenowen101

[Purpose2]

@EvadableMoxie Yup. I didn't include pop size in my reasoning above. There is still a good bit of work to be done.

Also, you were a big opponent of the original meta medbay which helped spur me to redo it on Meta. But I don't think I heard your feedback on the new design. Did you get a chance to see it on the playtest? Otherwise there are images on the Git. Nobody actually gave me any feedback on it - other than it looks better, which makes me nervous.

[EvadableMoxie]

4 hours ago, Purpose2 said:

@EvadableMoxie Yup. I didn't include pop size in my reasoning above. There is still a good bit of work to be done.

Also, you were a big opponent of the original meta medbay which helped spur me to redo it on Meta. But I don't think I heard your feedback on the new design. Did you get a chance to see it on the playtest? Otherwise there are images on the Git. Nobody actually gave me any feedback on it - other than it looks better, which makes me nervous.

I haven't playtested it, but I did see the pictures and it seems like a vast improvement.  I don't recall any glaring issues jumping out at me. 

[Nomzy]

The only notable concern I have for meta is how I believe PurpleGenie put it, by saying that metastation somehow takes more space and feels more congested at the same time. The rooms are incredibly small and just seem like they'd be hell to navigate in more populated departments. Take this with a grain of salt, of course. Im not good at hypotheticals.

[Shadeykins]

My big issue with metastation is, as Nomzy said, it manages to feel larger and yet extremely claustrophobic at the same time.

[Buford]

Yea I'm not really a big fan of the idea. Just be careful in adding stations that are too big because it might make certain area's barren. However I must say that being a supporter of utilitarianism which is basically the political and philosophical idea that money, resources, and decisions should be distributed based on how much happiness it produces among the most people. So if most people want this to happen I say let it happen.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Buford

[owenowen101]

16 minutes ago, Buford said:

Yea I'm not really a big fan of the idea. Just be careful in adding stations that are too big because it might make certain area's barren.

It's been said above already, but demand to play on Paradise was very high prior to the server auto de-lister coming into use and high server populations couldn't be accommodated well on the current map (Boxstation). The fact is that bigger and better maps will help us enable more people to play on the server, create a richer diversity of gaming experiences and provide the space for any future expansions.

Again, the OP is specifically addressing the potential of a map rotation feature being used on Paradise. If poor maps are part of that rotation, then the maps themselves need addressing and not the rotation feature itself, which undoubtedly brings with it fantastic possibilities for improving users' enjoyment of the server.

[Buford]

15 minutes ago, owenowen101 said:

It's been said above already, but demand to play on Paradise was very high prior to the server auto de-lister coming into use and high server populations couldn't be accommodated well on the current map (Boxstation). The fact is that bigger and better maps will help us enable more people to play on the server, create a richer diversity of gaming experiences and provide the space for any future expansions.

Again, the OP is specifically addressing the potential of a map rotation feature being used on Paradise. If poor maps are part of that rotation, then the maps themselves need addressing and not the rotation feature itself, which undoubtedly brings with it fantastic possibilities for improving users' enjoyment of the server.

For sure man.