Admin Complaint: PurpleGenie56

[Geramblin]

Admin Key: PurpleGenie56

Your Discord name (if applicable): Helios

Complaint: Warned for "over the top" violence. I disagree with this evaluation and would like the input of other administrators. The violence in question involved all armed combatants and an antag who was already on KoS due to holoparasite possession. I was pinned on the bridge, fighting against armed ERT, security, greytide, and command members. All who were aggressively engaging. When I say armed, they had tasers, laser guns, AEGs, energy guns, mass accelerator cannons, etc. In the heat of the moment, I was trying to juggle looking for the krav maga gloves of the dead warden for one of my objectives, fighting, trying not to FF any friendlies, reload weapons, dodging shots, healing, looking for the CE (who I assumed had the station blueprints for my objective since his locker did not contain it), and seeing if I could get a message out to syndicate command for some sort of shuttle delay. The reason we were on that bridge was to find the warden and CE. Earlier we had entered security looking for syndicate to free, the warden and his gloves, and any supplies we could scrounge up. We were surrounded on both sides of the bridge, with the AI locking down doors. Once we found that a path was clear to leave and try to find the CE elsewhere, we moved out and attempted to disengage. It should be noted that armed resistance continued to pursue and engage me and my allies. Once again, I was KoS due to my holoparasite and had armed resistance aggressively trying to take us down. We were searching for our objectives, the CE and warden. We had to fight into and out of the bridge. I was not about to lead myself into a deathtrap by not clearing a way first.

PM from-Game AdminSaywat_the_15th: Hello, i'd like to know what sparked the bloodbath in the main hallway, seemed like an awfully excessive amount of violence there
PM to-Saywat_the_15th: Well we are just dealing with any armed combatants, plus still on the hunt for the CE, which is why we went bridge
PM from-Game AdminPurpleGenie56: You killed quite a few people and few if any of them were relevant to your objectives
PM from-Game AdminPurpleGenie56: The CE, sure. But this massive bloodbath was /way/ over the top
PM to-PurpleGenie56: Considering they have lethals and are firing on us, seems justified
PM from-Game AdminSaywat_the_15th: Pardon, continue answering to purplegenie, i didn't realize he had PM'd you.
PM from-Game AdminPurpleGenie56: You have to steal gloves and blueprints. That doesn't give you freedom to do this. Hijack would. You have to cut and run at a point, not just kill until they stop coming, that's totally unaccetptable
PM from-Game AdminPurpleGenie56: I'm going to be very clear and direct. This was over the top and not acceptable. And I'm going to be use no uncertian terms when I say if you repeat this kind of over the top excess, you will be antag banned. Do I make myself clear?
PM to-PurpleGenie56: So this warning is because we were fighting to find our objective, the CE who had the blueprints, while everyone we fought was armed, not to mention the fact that I was KoS?
PM from-Game AdminPurpleGenie56: You caused way too much damage. Period. You should have ran from them instead of what happened. That kind of carnage is not allowed without hijack
PM from-Game AdminPurpleGenie56: Listen to me when I tell you: This was not acceptable. I'm not going to waste everyone's time debating it. You've been given a warning by an admin. Obey it or pay the consequences. 

"You should have ran from them instead of what happened." - I would have loved to if I was not pinned on both sides by armed resistance that had engaged us. I am not about to run out to my death without clearing a path.

I also found the way that PurpleGenie56 communicated unbecoming of an administrator, giving off arrogance and hostility. The admin also decided that the conversation was "over" and that the subject be dropped.

All that were slain decided to engage us, they made themselves relevant by deciding to do so.

Also some OOC chatter post match that I found relevant:

OOC: Streaky Haddock: sometimes its hard to immediately know the difference between an antag who's murderboning and an antag who fucked up and is fighting off a swarm of motherfuckers

OOC: Streaky Haddock: i wouldn't blame a traitor who fucked up and has to get brutal
OOC: Streaky Haddock: sec sure isn't going to go easy on them
OOC: Streaky Haddock: and I was prepared to kill when i heard holoparasite
OOC: Aracino: everyone and their mother had a gun

OOC: Mrsenpai: cant make an omlet without breaking a few eggs
OOC: Aracino: plus we were wanted for invading sec
 

For the sake of transparency, I have included my own record of the log. I would like to hear feedback, no matter what side of the fence.

Antag Warning.docx

[MarsMond]

Hello Geramblin,

While i won't handle the complainment, i would like to add some informations. I was only partly active during the round While, as you quoted Streaky Haddock, sometimes it can be hard to distinguish between murderboning and getting attacked by a number of people, i did remember a round where you did also were quite loud with two steal objectives, on 27.7.17. After a hijacker with chainsaw failed, you did emag into evidence, have gotten that chainsaw, and were engaged, including by the blueshield, head of personnel, and chaplain, which you did cut up into meat. Given that they engaged you, it was kinda fine, but for me, it seemed like you stayed in security too long. Overall, it looks to me like you are playing antagonists rather loud, in my opinion too loud for your objectives, such (borderline-)breaking rule 6. As you have never gotten messaged about it, i did suggest to give you your first, but stern, warning about it.

About cutting the discussion short, that will partly be the fault of the round ending.

[Geramblin]

In regards to rule 6: 

"Remember the goal of an Antagonist is to make the round exciting, fun, and dangerous, within limits. You should make an effort to add to the round, as opposed to simply completing your objectives and carrying on normally." - Most people enjoy combat and evidently seek it out with valid antagonists. In this case, armed resistance actively CHOSE to engage my allies and I. I must once again emphasize that everyone I found was ARMED and included ERT, security, greytide, and command members.

"The role of the Antagonist may pit you against the station. However, this is not grounds for murderboning the entire crew if your objective is to steal a jetpack, as you must work towards your objectives, not general mayhem. You may, however, antagonize/murder specific people who will help you complete your objective or who are hindering you from completing said objective. You are also permitted to freely defend yourself with lethal force if another player attempts to capture/hinder you;" - There were many situations where I could have murderboned other crew members during that round including a security member in science maint and a lone engineer in engineering. I DID NOT because it would not assist me in completing my objectives. I restate that everyone I engaged during the bridge battle was attempting to capture/hinder with lethals and stuns.

"Releasing the Singularity or the Tesla, tampering with Atmospherics, large scale destruction, or any other action that directly warrants a Shuttle Call, is reserved for those who have the "Hijack the Shuttle" Antagonist objective, or are a round-ending Antagonist by default (such as a Malfunctioning AI, Nuclear Operative or Wizard). The exception is if you have been given permission by the Server Staff;" - There seems to have been some confusion here. I DID NOT sabotage engineering that round, likely the work of another traitor. I also was not going around willy nilly throwing around explosives, in fact I used none at all. Nor did I tamper with atmospherics that round.

[Geramblin]

It should also be noted that non-security members ACTIVELY decided to leave their departments and engage with lethal/stun force against my allies and I. I recall cargo members leaving their department with firearms to engage when we never engaged with them and a greytider picking up a taser and trying to stun during the bridge fight. There were also doctors and the brig physician who decided to enter into the area of an active firefight and attempt to retrieve the casualties of the forces fighting against my allies and I. I'm not even sure if the brig physician was even taking medical action, they might have just been there to fight.

I should state for the record that this is my recollection of the events of that round.

It seems to me there is just salt from the opposition from "losing" a fight they decided to initiate.

Rule 6 seems to be enforced, or at least invoked in this case. It does not seem like rule 8 is being enforced for the opposition.

"It is only the job of Security to stop Antagonists. If you are not a member of Security, then hunting Antagonists is not something you should be doing. You may not drop your job, or go out of your way, to hunt Antagonists. You may, however, defend yourself or others from Antagonist attack if you happen to witness it;"

It should also be stated plainly that with the powergaming action and knowledge taken by non-antags for whatever reason, it makes the job of antags much harder and more likely to end in bloodshed. You can't covertly enter the bridge with success unless niche circumstances are met. Let's say you manage to kill a command member (who has to have the same body type to even work as an effective disguise, for example a human with a vox command ID is likely to not work), do it covertly, get a disguise on, not get stopped on the way to the bridge, not get stopped on the bridge, and manage to find your target. The chances of that being pulled off are low: you are likely to fail the murder of a command member or have intervention, someone is gonna notice the command member is dead, or you'll be stopped with the "random" check or just fired upon. You have the AI to deal with, security watching cameras and patrolling, and the massive amount of people that are usually on station waiting to get their not so valid hunt on or just happen to be a witness. Let's say that, despite the odds, you make it onto the bridge and lucky for you, your targets are there. Great, now you just have to hope that an opening arrives to strike covertly. But that moment usually never arrives. Either the guys on the bridge are getting suspicious that the HoP is wearing a gas mask or they just sit on the bridge with witnesses and guards in plenty.

Covert action does not work. Everyone knows the tricks of it all already, covert action working relies on people playing along and acting dumb or actually being unaware that covert action is taking place. You don't want to get fiber wire'd as captain? Just stay with a friend and don't get dragged off to get choked out. Trying to not get poisoned? Just eat from the vending machines. Wanna make sure the HoP is really the HoP? Run the tests and make sure he does not have a gas mask on. Everyone knows the counters, everyone uses the counters (Rhetoric of course, not really everyone but many do). If you want to succeed as an antagonist, you usually have to go loud.

I'd love to just get the station blueprints from the CE, but the reality is that he is not going to give them up alive. They are usually gonna fight back, or if you leave them alive it leaves evidence that is gonna get you caught. Not only are they going to fight back, but they will usually have people assisting them either playing witness or actively fighting.

In regards to the round that marsmond mentioned, I cannot recall it so clearly nor do I have records of that round. I must emphasize that the crew I engaged DECIDED to engage on their own will. I will also restate that this is what a lot of crew play for: combat. They DECIDE to join in on the fight, and maybe they lose and decide to ahelp it with a bit of salt on the side.

[TullyBBurnalot]

The situation is currently being looked into. Please hold.

[PurpleGenie]

I'd just like to say that I won't defend myself on this . I didn't want to say nothing to you on it either and just leave it to Tully. 

I know I was in the wrong here. The way I came off in the PMs was terrible, to say the least. I was trying to make a point (that I now know did not have to be made) in a quick and direct way. It failed spectacularly. I made an idiot of myself in the PM conversation, and I'm honestly ashamed of what I said.Part of me wants to try to shift blame to my meds making me irritable, or an erratic work schedule leaving me sleep deprived. I know I can't blame either for this. And while they may have been a factor, the failure here was completely and utterly mine and mine alone. 

I misread the situation, and again this was stupidity on my part. It has become clear to me that some things regarding antags and what is and is not acceptable was not made clear to me in the trial phase, or information I did get may have conflicted with info from someone else. I intend to talk with Tully at some point hopefully soon and clarify the points I missed. 

This was an idiotic lapse in judgement and conduct on my part and I'm very sorry to have made it. I know I've beat the point to death by now and I apologize for the repetition. I just want you to know that I know what I did was out of line, and it's a mistake I intend to never repeat.

I don't know what else Tully will have to do for the complaint, but I didn't want this left unsaid.

I apologize to you for what I did, and I apologize to Tully for having to deal with the mess I made.

[TullyBBurnalot]

As discussed with the original complainant via Discord PMs, the directly above applies. It would seem Purple got ahead of me for about an hour, which would make a recap more of a repetition at this point.

As noted in person, Purple has since been informed of the correct way to handle a situation like this and will be working on adjusting the way they approach PM conversations. As per the original complainant, this was deemed sufficient.

Filing to Resolved.