Add an overdose limit to saline

[imsxz]

Saline is such an easily mass producable chem, and people like to abuse that by loading up on hundreds of units of it for endless free heals.

Another cheesy powergamer strategy, down the drain.

[ZN23X]

I'm okay with this cuz I'm too lazy to abuse it lol

[RiggyMiggy]

just give saline a downside.

like overdosing can fuck you up with brain damage, toxin, oxygen. some random bullshit.

Edited August 9, 2017 by RiggyMiggy

[imsxz]

A straight up downside isn't fair to the people who use it correctly (i.e. medibots), an overdose would only punish those who abuse it

[Mitchs98]

Ehm. How do you abuse a chemical that heals as slow as shit?

[Holyass]

By pumping like lot of it into you. 

 

so you will have a healing over time the nearly the wholdshift.

[RiggyMiggy]

then make a overdose really bad, medibots would inject the right amount but overdoing it actually fucks you up somehow, dont know what exactly but somehow.

[EldritchSigma]

Doesnt really matter considering you can just put them in a flask and drink when need. Like really. Take a hit by a laser? Quickly chug a bit of saline. It is very slow on healing, have barely seen anyone doing it except for fixing small annoying damages like a random laser or the cheap lighter failing. In combat it literally got not much use except if you got potatoes for sec not pushing and putting pressure on an antag. You really need to rest somewhere (not actually resting, but taking a small break and not fighting and shit) so you can see a decent heal off of that. Why should I bother with Saline if I can make super healing chems from botany with no real downside (Earthblood with Mannitol)

Edited August 9, 2017 by EldritchSigma

[ZN23X]

It heals wicked fast when in a cig. Maybe I'm mistaken.

Some periodic healing is better than none. There are things that are stronger but it doesn't make overloading on SG useless. SG is also quite a bit quicker to obtain than earthsblood as well. Plus if you don't want your screen looking wonky from being high.

Edited August 9, 2017 by ZN23X

[Mitchs98]

Again, not seeing any reason to nerf it. It's and incredibly slow healing chem that's really only useful for 1-2 damage. Not overpowered, not really at all. Lazers or, hell, a crowbar would easily negate the healing factor in a few hits. It's pointless to nerf it.

[DarkPyrolord]

I don't really see a need to nerf it as it well... isn't that fast in healing, even a sheet of cardboard could out damage the heal of it (and yes, cardboard sheets can be used as a lethal weapon).

If you really did need a way to nerf it though, I did look up what OD on Saline does which can be pretty nasty, not saying these should be solid suggestions, just small ideas.

• Too much fluid in the blood, leading to water building up in the lungs, dealing very minor to medium amounts of oxy damage could be done.
• Build up of acid in the blood caused by an overdose, in SS13 this could be simulated by dealing small amounts of toxins damage .

Also going to ping @SomanB on this one, as they would know much more about this stuff compared to what I know, anyway that is my short little thing on it all, don't think it should be nerfed but there are a few neat suggestions if a PR is ever made.

[Holyass]

Well, I say if it gets a overdose effect added to it then you need to write in more coding for the medibots to stop OD you full of it then and then a lot of players need to learn that they cant use too much of it or they will OD themselfs or other players and so on....

 

Right now it's basicly 33% of healing one to two points of fire and blunt damage, and some blood, thats about it,  you can punch someone to death even if they have Saline in them....

 

1 hour ago, DarkPyrolord said:

I don't really see a need to nerf it as it well... isn't that fast in healing, even a sheet of cardboard could out damage the heal of it (and yes, cardboard sheets can be used as a lethal weapon).

What less is there to say?  It's a very slow healing drug,  it's not some heal me now patch....

[Cyiko]

Keep in mind that you need to stick a fair bit of SG in someone to fix bloodloss if you don't have any blood for transfusion... Though everyone powergames universal so

[Kyet]

I don't see a reason to nerf it either.

The healing rate on it is too slow to be useful in combat.

If you nerf this, then the people who carry SGS/drink SGS will just carry a big patch or two instead.

Unlike SGS, patches are an instant heal.

Edited August 9, 2017 by tzo

[The Respected Man]

How will i identify antags when i scan them and not find 1000 units of saline-glucose in them? 

Reeeee

 

[EvadableMoxie]

I don't think it's really about how strong it is.  It's not broken in that it won't make you invincible, but it's a pretty decent amount of always on regeneration healing the two most common damage types on top of restoring blood.

The problem is there is literally no mechanical reason not to dump 1000u of Saline into yourself, yet it's really stupid in terms of immersion and RP.  It's a pure powergaming movie with zero downside. It's like pre-spliting in that way.  Completely illogical within the narrative of the world, but mechanically there is only upside to doing it, and so, people will. 

It's not so much a balance issue as not wanting to reward people who break the narrative to power game. 

[imsxz]

3 hours ago, EvadableMoxie said:

I don't think it's really about how strong it is.  It's not broken in that it won't make you invincible, but it's a pretty decent amount of always on regeneration healing the two most common damage types on top of restoring blood.

The problem is there is literally no mechanical reason not to dump 1000u of Saline into yourself, yet it's really stupid in terms of immersion and RP.  It's a pure powergaming movie with zero downside. It's like pre-spliting in that way.  Completely illogical within the narrative of the world, but mechanically there is only upside to doing it, and so, people will. 

It's not so much a balance issue as not wanting to reward people who break the narrative to power game. 

This is mainly why I made the thread.

Also it can heal a laser blast in 10 seconds, which is pretty significant if you're on the run and don't have access to burn patches.

Also the "I can outdamage the healing" argument applies to nearly every chem... Even cryoxadone if you're using an actual weapon.

[pinatacolada]

I'm ok with this as long as it's a high treshold, idk like 50 to OD, just because that saline heals more the more there is of it in the mob, which is a thing that should be respected.

 

i'm mostly ok because of the possibilities of pointing and laughing at people who raid the medbay fridge just in case and end up dying of it

[Holyass]

Here a whole list of it don't need a nerf at all.

 

1. it runs off the metabolism cycle with a 33% to heal.

2. it's only heal for 1 to 2 damage for burn or blunt, and burn may heal for 2 while blunt may heal for 1.

3. you can with ease Out damage it's healing rate by far, even on the run with a terget.

4. even if your on the run being fired on, it will not save you, just 2 shot from most weapon will knock you down mean the attack can catch you can beat the crap out you.

5. you need access to Chemistry or go talk to the players in Chemistry to get your hands on it or have someway to make it in the first place.

[Fox McCloud]

While you can hypothetically do this, it's so unreliable, it's not going to realistically win you any fights where it really matters--especially when stun are king in SS13.

 

It might make a difference when two people are fistfighting (again, *might*), but when it comes to standard one on one fight with standard >10 force weapons? It's not going to really do much of anything, as healing even a couple of ticks of damage isn't going to turn the battle in your favor (proccing the stun will).

 

In extended combat (ie: like say lavaland or a traitor encounter), it's not going to make a difference at all; in this situation, one side has the *distinct* upper advantage from the start and one mistake generally means you're going to die---healing even 10 damage over the duration of the fight isn't going to turn the tide of the fight, as that's not really the pivot of the fight.

 

if it healed more consistently and/or highre damage amounts, I'd agree---but as it is, it's notttt that impactful.

 

[Birdtalon]

3 hours ago, Fox McCloud said:

In extended combat (ie: like say lavaland or a traitor encounter), it's not going to make a difference at all; in this situation, one side has the *distinct* upper advantage from the start and one mistake generally means you're going to die---healing even 10 damage over the duration of the fight isn't going to turn the tide of the fight, as that's not really the pivot of the fight.

I can actually attest personally to having dosed up on 300-400 units of Saline Glucose and it has turned the tide of the fight for me. It was a 1v4 in security whereby I was trying to escape, as you say that the combat is very stun-heavy. It drew out the combat for a long time before I managed to disposal myself, but during that time the Saline Glucose did have an effect with warding off the harmbatons.

The problem here is not that Saline Glucose is overpowered but that I can go into SciChem at spawn knowing I'm an antagonist and make 500 units of it within a few minutes for a constant regeneration advantage with no downsides. You're right that it's not that impactful but surely you must agree that having a chem where there is no reason at all not to use it isn't amazing.

[Birdtalon]

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/7972

Open for comment.

[ZN23X]

I keep hearing arguments that the healing on this is minimal as if once you have SGS in your systems it negates all other methods of healing. SGS alone is already the equivalent of a weaker changeling fleshmend that never wears off. Add in that people can also already use other healing methods COMBINED with SGS overload. It doesn't help much if it's all you are using and you get stunlocked, most things dont, but find me someone who abuses SGS who also isn't hopped up on meth and whatever else they can think of. If these people have access to a chem station they are making everything they can to make themselves hard to stop. SGS helps alot when you are unable to be kept down by stuns due to meth and are hard to hit cuz you are zipping around. And the people using it KNOW that if they dip in and out of combat they are slowly healing while thier foes are not. Add in antag abilities and items that can already tip the scales in thier favor on thier own and GL to whoever they are fighting. Stop looking at this in the vacuum of just how much it heals per tick. There is more to it than that.

Edited August 11, 2017 by ZN23X

[Holyass]

It's very hard to get hold a ChemMaster 2200 if you don't have access for one in the 1st place

Spoiler

 

I think i can sum what all kid crying about.

"a small heal over a very long time while the other player is high on meth."

 

no shit, what you think?  A go happy friendly world where we hold hands and sing about peace?    No.

 

we kill each other, try to gain a lot of tools to do so, if you don't feel like dying then go try and gain all the tools like Mass SGS and meth and other tools of the trade, you will see how hard it's is.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Holyass

[Starker]

I think all medications and chemicals should have an overdose threshold. All substances in the real world have a lethal dosage, even water, so why should they not in SS13? This would make medicine more interesting and prevent abuse of sleepers (simply pumping people full of meds with no regard to dosage).

Edited November 7, 2018 by Starker