Rule Suggestion:

[Buford]

I believe we should make it a rule to not select positions of high authority on paradise station in order to act on personal biases towards another player. Or to act on biases when you are in a position of command towards another player in that department or the departments that position has authority over.

Such as going magistrate, captain, or NT rep to actively seek to demote someone in command.

Or going a head of a department in order to actively find a reason to demote someone in that department you are head of.

 

It is understandable as being human gives us biases based on what we experience in life and our environment that we are exposed to in the course of living.

I've been a victim of this and when I started playing as doctor often I've seen another one of my colleagues in the medical staff position get demoted by the CMO do to a personal bias (the reason was he wasn't doing a good job as a doctor and whatnot). I knew there was a personal bias because I've seen negative remarks exchanged by the two over the course of playing can't remember who they were due to it being so long ago my first 5 days playing but uh.. Nothing could be done as it wasn't a rule.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Buford

[SomeGuy9283]

Metagrudging and playing Head of Staff roles irresponsibly/maliciously are both already bannable and jobbanable offenses respectively iirc. If you're being metagrudged, ahelp.

Edited August 15, 2017 by SomeGuy9283
woopsie

[Biabri]

This is the same reasoning used by a particular group which argues that a particular larger group are unintentionally, uncontrollably and unknowningly bigoted based on past experiences...

 

Arguing with the chain of command is a surefire way to get your ass demoted though. If it was meta-grudging, that's another matter. It's worth noting that one of the few things you do carry through rounds with you is relationships, and if the same medical staff are being rude/unhelpful towards the CMO then... Well, they're getting demoted, if not brigged, for negligence and going against the chain of command and insubordination and so on... *I don't remember the fine details of space law and each and every brig offence, skree. I generally have THE LAW book when I need it.*

Context is very important.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Biabri

[The Respected Man]

I think the metagrudge rule already covers this. 

[Buford]

24 minutes ago, Biabri said:

This is the same reasoning used by a particular group which argues that a particular larger group are unintentionally, uncontrollably and unknowningly bigoted based on past experiences...

 

Arguing with the chain of command is a surefire way to get your ass demoted though. If it was meta-grudging, that's another matter. It's worth noting that one of the few things you do carry through rounds with you is relationships, and if the same medical staff are being rude/unhelpful towards the CMO then... Well, they're getting demoted, if not brigged, for negligence and going against the chain of command and insubordination and so on... *I don't remember the fine details of space law and each and every brig offence, skree. I generally have THE LAW book when I need it.*

Context is very important.

Don't carry the space law book just have the wiki pages open concerning Space Law and Legal Standard of Procedure. It's a pain in the ass to scroll through a tiny portion of the screen while processing suspects.

If anything is questioned I use lightshare (A program which allows you to screenshot cropped parts of your screen and even gives you a link to share) then screenshot whatever you need in reference to the current situation from the wiki page on Space Law, Legal Standard Of Procedure, Standard of Procedure (Of any department on the wiki page) then post it in LooC.

For instance.

Someone is questioning why they are getting 5 minutes time over the max time allowed to the law broken in space law you can screenshot this.

http://prntscr.com/g8wn4d

Comes in handy.

You can download lightshot here if you wish.

https://prnt.sc/

 

As any position of security you should always have these open.

https://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Space_law

https://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Legal_Standard_Operating_Procedure

https://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Standard_Operating_Procedure

https://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Security_Officer (Or whatever position you are in as security)

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Buford

[Biabri]

Helpful!

[Buford]

Just now, Biabri said:

Helpful!

Yea man try it lightshot is great.

By the time you know it a lot of this stuff will come hardcoded in your head haha.

[Vargh]

If you get metagrudged just ahelp that, it's against the rules and you should not let that slip from the admins. People who save anger to others from past rounds are idiots and dont actually understand the game.

[Buford]

Also metagrudge isn't a clearly defined or a ruleset alone. It's under the context of "Maintaining a respectful environment"

https://prnt.sc/g8wrk9

Metagrudge is only mentioned in the rule list in that screenshot. There are also several grey area's regarding the whole slight in context bias being allowed to cross shifts I believe that metagrudge should be a standalone rule with a clear definition of what it is. As well maybe implement what is stated under the metagrudge rule.

 

Yea someone went NT Rep and at the start of the round she said "I've heard bad things about you Buford I'll be keeping an eye on you."

The captain then told me that she's been complaining about me all shift saying "I'm a worthless piece of shit."

Eventually he got annoyed of her complaining to where he did demote me. Captain allowed me to stay with him and we kinda started a party in AI core haha.

 

The only bad thing I did that shift was pepper spray someone for giving me excessive mouth haha. Got brigged for 5 minutes for battery but not demoted but she continued to complain before and after that incident until I did get demoted.

Another officer non lethally stunsticked someone like 6 times during that same shift in processing but nothing was done about him. Combined with that we were having trouble with the vamps and she basically said according to the captain "Security is doing a shit job at handling the vamps it's Bufords fault" or something along those lines as well blaming the incident of the new officer on me and not penalizing him.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Buford

[Valkyrie]

32 minutes ago, Buford said:

Yea someone went NT Rep and at the start of the round she said "I've heard bad things about you Buford I'll be keeping an eye on you."

The captain then told me that she's been complaining about me all shift saying "I'm a worthless piece of shit."

Eventually he got annoyed of her complaining to where he did demote me. Captain allowed me to stay with him and we kinda started a party in AI core haha.

 

The only bad thing I did that shift was pepper spray someone for giving me excessive mouth haha. Got brigged for 5 minutes for battery but not demoted but she continued to complain before and after that incident until I did get demoted.

Another officer non lethally stunsticked someone like 6 times during that same shift in processing but nothing was done about him. Combined with that we were having trouble with the vamps and she basically said according to the captain "Security is doing a shit job at handling the vamps it's Bufords fault" or something along those lines as well blaming the incident of the new officer on me and not penalizing him.

 

That's pretty unreasonable. I do remember a time where you made a TON of mistakes as a security member, but you were new, and everyone starts somewhere. That was months ago, though. Just earlier today, I saw you showing better knowledge of Space Law than whoever was playing HoS that round. It's clear that you've gotten a lot more experience and became less prone to mistakes.

Can't say what the best thing to do in this situation would be besides ahelp if you think you're being metagrudged.

[Capsandi]

Maybe it was a RP thing? If you belive your a good officer than its probably a gimick. I like the idea of it too!

[Buford]

37 minutes ago, Valkyrie said:

That's pretty unreasonable. I do remember a time where you made a TON of mistakes as a security member, but you were new, and everyone starts somewhere. That was months ago, though. Just earlier today, I saw you showing better knowledge of Space Law than whoever was playing HoS that round. It's clear that you've gotten a lot more experience and became less prone to mistakes.

Can't say what the best thing to do in this situation would be besides ahelp if you think you're being metagrudged.

It was clear metagrudge considering this is my 3rd day playing after being gone for 2 weeks.

Also I'm not quite sure if it would have helped because of the grey area within the boundaries of valid IC bias and against the rule metagrudge. That's why I believe this rule should be more clearly defined and enforced.

Also my word doesn't hold any weight considering that most of these people have been playing for years.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Buford

[DayZ Me Trolling]

Have you considered that some of this may not be "personal bias/metagrudging" and simply an overzealous NT rep or a chain of events that lead to some sort of IC confrontation? 

Edited August 16, 2017 by DayZ Me Trolling

[Buford]

Just now, DayZ Me Trolling said:

May you have considered that some of this may not be "personal bias/metagrudging" and simply an overzealous NT rep or a chain of events that lead to some sort of IC confrontation? 

I was gone for two weeks. Just came back and it was my second day playing after being gone for so long when she became NT rep that round and stated at the beginning of the shift "I've heard bad things about you, I'll keep an eye on you." Also I stated that I recall seeing her in processing often. Then she stated "I've been gone for a couple days there are many -insert name here- on the station." It was probably the wrong -insert name here-. Considering I've been gone for 2 weeks IRL time.  If her statement is true then that was her first encounter of seeing me in 2 weeks. She began shit talking me to the captain since the beginning of the round with little or no IC reason (the captain told me). 

I know her name I just refuse to mention it.

[DayZ Me Trolling]

I see, well it probably doesn't help that you also threw in a couple of other names on OOC yesterday, including my own because you were fired IC. I can't take the "personal bias" thing too serious myself since you even called myself out on it when in reality that was literally our first time interacting negatively IC. I can't comment on the NT Rep as I have no idea who she is or what her side of the story is, but I can safely suggest that there's a possibility that generally there is no personal bias. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by DayZ Me Trolling

[Buford]

9 minutes ago, DayZ Me Trolling said:

I see, well it probably doesn't help that you also threw in a couple of other names on OOC yesterday, including my own because you were fired IC. I can't take the "personal bias" thing too serious myself since you even called myself out on it when in reality that was literally our first time interacting negatively IC. I can't comment on the NT Rep as I have no idea who she is or what her side of the story is, but I can safely suggest that there's a possibility that generally there is no personal bias. 

No it wasn't. I remember you clear as day when I was just starting security after spending quite a bit of time as doctor. After the third fuckup you were on my ass making negative comments IC whenever you had a valid reason to do so.

Also I'm going to quote you. After I got demoted and I said I'm going doctor you said "Good never go security again" or something along those lines.

I've been doing a great job as HoS even got a compliment from Goobina or Bloobina (One of the two can't remember) said I would make a good captain.

I'm pretty decent in security now and your just going to have to let it in the past.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Buford

[DayZ Me Trolling]

I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about considering I barely talk to you IC since half the time I'm off doing other stuff. To be clear, whenever I do make a negative remark IC  (IC is the golden word here) towards anyone that makes a mistake in security it's because something seriously bad came out of the really bad mistake. If you think I have any sort of personal bias towards you or your character, you're mistaken. If I can frank I really don't care what you do or play and have no distaste for you, however if your character fucks up seriously in front of mine he's going to get called out, just like any other character would.

 

Also not sure why you didn't clarify this already however when you /ICly/ said "You're gonna go become a doctor now" my characters response was along the lines of "Good, stay there"   

And again, to be crystal clear I don't have any distaste for you or your character, whatever my character does in regards to role play doesn't reflect my actual viewpoint nor does it immediately mean I hate you or anyone else I have a negative interaction with IC. 

[Buford]

8 minutes ago, DayZ Me Trolling said:

I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about considering I barely talk to you IC since half the time I'm off doing other stuff. To be clear, whenever I do make a negative remark IC  (IC is the golden word here) towards anyone that makes a mistake in security it's because something seriously bad came out of the really bad mistake. If you think I have any sort of personal bias towards you or your character, you're mistaken. If I can frank I really don't care what you do or play and have no distaste for you, however if your character fucks up seriously in front of mine he's going to get called out, just like any other character would.

 

Also not sure why you didn't clarify this already however when you /ICly/ said "You're gonna go become a doctor now" my characters response was along the lines of "Good, stay there"   

And again, to be crystal clear I don't have any distaste for you or your character, whatever my character does in regards to role play doesn't reflect my actual viewpoint nor does it immediately mean I hate you or anyone else I have a negative interaction with IC. 

Yea I recall you saying "Good stay there" I thought you implied that I should never be security again.

Great.

Maybe it was a miscommunication. I know you have nothing to do with the female NT rep

Edited August 16, 2017 by Buford

[TyOmaha]

9 hours ago, Buford said:

Another officer non lethally stunsticked someone like 6 times during that same shift in processing but nothing was done about him.

If I recall correctly the guy in the chair was attempting to unbuckle/uncuff which was why the officer was stunbatonning them

[Buford]

31 minutes ago, Ty Omaha said:

If I recall correctly the guy in the chair was attempting to unbuckle/uncuff which was why the officer was stunbatonning them

You weren't there when it happened also sorry I usually type out things and don't reread them.

What I meant to say was that he was in one of the cells and attempted to escape while the timer was being set so an officer stunned him with the baton instead of re-cuffing him and buckling him back on the Bed he continued to hit him over and over again (Non lethally of course). I only pepper sprayed the person once.

[TyOmaha]

2 minutes ago, Buford said:

You weren't there when it happened also sorry I usually type out things and don't reread them.

What I meant to say was that he was in one of the cells and attempted to escape while the timer was being set so an officer stunned him with the baton instead of re-cuffing him and buckling him back on the Bed he continued to hit him over and over again (Non lethally of course). I only pepper sprayed the person once.

Right, but his reason to do so was to prevent the guy from escaping. Why did you pepper spray the guy?

[Buford]

42 minutes ago, Ty Omaha said:

Right, but his reason to do so was to prevent the guy from escaping. Why did you pepper spray the guy?

http://prntscr.com/g93alv

This incident that happened luigi was not in game during the round so he had nothing to do with it.

Also I could understand a taze and one time baton to get cuffs on a person. But like stunning him once.. Then stunning him another 5 times in a row without attempting to cuff him is not to prevent the guy from escaping. 

[Buford]

Anyways this is not a thread about my affairs with other players. I just used it as an example. If I wanted it to be about that it'd be in the players complaint section which I don't care to post in.

When it comes down to it Metagrudge needs to be a stand alone rule that defines itself in a way that people can understand the difference between legit IC bias and Metagrudge and to clarify what would count as metagrudge.

Metagrudge is mentioned once in the rule list basically as a term within one of the definitions of a rule. It isn't a standalone rule nor one of the highlighted definitions of a rule it is a solo word within a sentence.

This leaves room for MAJOR grey area's. 

[Dumbdumn5]

After scrolling through this thread, I've got to say that Metagrudging is already against the rules, and though it's not absolutely clear cut and super well defined, that means people can't toe the line or try to lawyer around it. If somebody is metagruding you, it's more or less a reason to go for either a player complaint, or telling an admin over discord so that they can dig through old logs or talk to the other player and see how both stories line up. It's something that kind of has to be investigated and 'felt' rather than something to run down a checklist about to determine if something is or isn't. 

While leaving major grey areas can be a problem, it also means the rule can fit to more situations and result in lengthier conversations with both players to better understand the issue, and determine what actually was or actually wasn't metagrudging. In the example you continually bring up, the one regarding the NT Rep, hearsay is acceptable, acting on said hearsay isn't, you can watch somebody closely but not jump at them in terms of trying to demote them at the same time, and that level of restraint is something that somebody can expect from anybody else. If the person has heard things about you, good or bad ICly, they can come in with a disposition, so long as it doesn't effect the way they run their job around you. 

I'm not sure if extra definition and making a new rule altogether will entirely fix or better the situation, or restrict what can be done about metagrudging more than the current, broad definition.

[ZN23X]

15 hours ago, Buford said:

If anything is questioned I use lightshare (A program which allows you to screenshot cropped parts of your screen and even gives you a link to share) then screenshot whatever you need in reference to the current situation from the wiki page on Space Law, Legal Standard Of Procedure, Standard of Procedure (Of any department on the wiki page) then post it in LooC.

This should all be handled in character. Sometimes criminals just argue thier sentences even if they know exactly why and how long they should be in for. Them argueing or questioning a sentence is just a means to create conflict and dialogue IC. You shouldn't be using LOOC to explain your IC actions. Tell them thier charges and tell them if they have a problem with it tell them to contact internal affairs. You also shouldn't be saying things IC like "Sorry I had the wrong intent set" or "???". THAT is what LOOC is used for, and even then if you accidentally harm intent someone you can find a way to play it off IC like "I was trying to swat a bug flying around your head" or something and instead of saying "???" you can say "I'm confused" or emote that you look confused.

I like the thing with having wiki pages pulled up, it is helpful for newer players and I'd also add the Contraband page to that list, but once you are experienced at sec you don't even need the wiki anymore except maybe for a quick refresher if you have a mental lapse or something. This could really be said for any job on the station, and there are plenty of aspects of every job that you will learn through experience that the wiki can never teach you.

It's also important for the Warden and HOS to be knowledgeable with all aspects of security. Last night when I was HOS and you were Warden you were under the belief that only the HOS could set arrest records. I was absolutely stunned that someone who plays HOS as frequently as you didn't know anyone with a SEC HUD or access to a security records console could do this. Also when a cloned officer asked you for a mindshield you told them you don't have them. The Warden (and HOS) should know the contents of the armory and when/how to use everything in there. You also asked my approval for brigging several people. While the HOS CAN help with this, it is both the wardens job and they have full authority to handle all of the aspects of processing and brigging criminals without permission. It can help to allow others to play these roles and observe them as one of thier subordinates to see how different people handle the job. I learned more about sec playing Brig Doc than any other role because there are many times you can just sit back and watch without being flooded with all the responsibilities, noise, and stress of more important roles.

I really hope you morso view this as a friend trying to help a friend rather than a personal attack but I can understand if you take it that way.

Sorry ☹

Edited August 16, 2017 by ZN23X