Vampire Holy Water Adjustment

[Ziiro]

I've rolled vampire a decent amount in the past few days, so take this with my entire shaker of salt:

 

Currently, there is no downside to force-feeding every single person who comes through processing an entire flask of holywater if anyone so much as mentions vampires on coms. They don't even have to use powers, or be suspected in any way for security/chaplain to say "Well make them chug anyway"

 

Suggestion: Make holy water toxic. Enough so that force-feeding a chug that would kill a vampire actually kills normal people as well. (The only difference is they don't burst into flames.) If you want a test for a vampire, you have to be careful. A dropper or syringe, and that's it.

Bonuses: Chaplain is discouraged from being an idiot with holy water, because it's dangerous. Additionally, antag chaplain has a way to produce a toxin to use on people. It would hopefully cut down on illegal executions as well.

Other notes: This doesn't actually help vampires a whole lot, because the testing will still occur - but at least there will be some reason not to metagame and just forcefeed everyone who gets arrested an entire flask.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Ziiro

[Rumiluntti]

Holy water has mercury in it, in my opinion it should cause some side effects when fed.
 

[MarsMond]

Well, manually mixed holy water does use mercury in the recipe, so it should probably toxic. But on the other hand, holy water created by the chaplain is water smacked with a book, doesn't make much sense if that is toxic.

[Rurik]

As someone whose been force fed Holy Water as a vamp on code blue for a petty crime without using any powers, I wholeheartedly support this.

[Rumiluntti]

36 minutes ago, MarsMond said:

Well, manually mixed holy water does use mercury in the recipe, so it should probably toxic. But on the other hand, holy water created by the chaplain is water smacked with a book, doesn't make much sense if that is toxic.

Religions are toxic :^)

[Ziiro]

20 minutes ago, MarsMond said:

Well, manually mixed holy water does use mercury in the recipe, so it should probably toxic. But on the other hand, holy water created by the chaplain is water smacked with a book, doesn't make much sense if that is toxic.

 

Holy water is, chemically, Holy water. The way it gets there (synthetically or magically) is irrelevant in my opinion.

Alternatively: It should absolutely be harmful for the non-religious to imbibe it. After all, it isn't holy to them. Even if they aren't Unholy

 

1 minute ago, Rurik said:

As someone whose been force fed Holy Water as a vamp on code blue for a petty crime without using any powers, I wholeheartedly support this.

I believe this has happened to me two (maybe 3?) times in the last week alone.

[ZN23X]

13 hours ago, Ziiro said:

Currently, there is no downside to force-feeding every single person who comes through processing an entire flask of holywater if anyone so much as mentions vampires on coms. They don't even have to use powers, or be suspected in any way for security/chaplain to say "Well make them chug away"

Security isnt allowed to force fees everyone who comes into professing. I've gotten bwoinked for it in the past. There has to be proof they are a vampire, minimum proof being someone seeing them use powers or having a means to restrain people on them i.e. cable cuffs. If someone is force feeding every single person that comes into processing then that needs to be ahelped. Illegal executions should be getting ahelped as well. Sec should be held accountable when they aren't following proper procedure even if only to correct it in the future.

[Hylocereus]

It used to be that holy water caused brain damage - it still causes stuttering. I'm not sure why that was removed (maybe because people were killing cultist's brains, literally) but in its place I do wholeheartedly agree something else should be put. I don't think this will stop shitcurity from holy waterboarding people, but it should make most people stop and think. (And give the brig phys something to do on cult rounds. Hue.)

[Buford]

Don't think it makes sense for anyone who is not evil to be harmed by holy water.

[DarkPyrolord]

I find it strange how no one has bought this up yet... but when it comes to cult rounds it would mean you pretty much have to kill cultists as holy water would damage them and charcoal would only hinder the deconversion process as it has a 50% chance to remove 1u of reagents in the cultists system per cycle, as on average it requires around 30u to 40u of holy water to actually cure one of them. In other words it would only cause salt in another way unless the deconversion amount was drastically lowered. Or the whole brain damage thing could come back, I think that would personally be much better as that can be fixed without halting things for too long.

Edited August 27, 2017 by DarkPyrolord
More clear on Charcoal

[Jovaniph]

1 hour ago, DarkPyrolord said:

I find it strange how no one has bought this up yet... but when it comes to cult rounds it would mean you pretty much have to kill cultists as holy water would damage them and charcoal would only hinder the deconversion process as it has a 50% chance to remove 1u of reagents in the cultists system per cycle, as on average it requires around 30u to 40u of holy water to actually cure one of them. In other words it would only cause salt in another way unless the deconversion amount was drastically lowered. Or the whole brain damage thing could come back, I think that would personally be much better as that can be fixed without halting things for too long.

I mean Holy Water doesn't have an overdose limit. Maybe after being fed 100 times, then that should be considered drowning someone to death.

[SkeletalElite]

Maybe make holy water have a negative affect when drank by someone who isn't a cultist/vampire/chaplain drink it. It doesnt make much sense lore wise but sometimes you gotta look at things from a game balance perspective.

[Enginseer-42]

Make Non-Cultists/Vampires who 'overdose' on holy water into 'true converts' who believe the Chaplain is the highest authority on the station. Then chaplains faking a cult as a traitor has a point besides just throwing off security, and discourages Security from dousing everyone in holy water.

[Jovaniph]

I'm more into the idea that if they are not a cultist/vamp, the person gets gibbed like SR. =3

[Buford]

6 hours ago, SkeletalElite said:

Maybe make holy water have a negative affect when drank by someone who isn't a cultist/vampire/chaplain drink it. It doesnt make much sense lore wise but sometimes you gotta look at things from a game balance perspective.

Considering with cultists rounds it's either no one wins (Cultists don't summon there god because shuttle is called early) or cultists completely win, on vampire rounds it's usually a stalemate some sec guards die some vamps die the difference is the number dead on either side. So yea there is no balance needed for holy water.

[SkeletalElite]

31 minutes ago, Buford said:

Considering with cultists rounds it's either no one wins (Cultists don't summon there god because shuttle is called early) or cultists completely win, on vampire rounds it's usually a stalemate some sec guards die some vamps die the difference is the number dead on either side. So yea there is no balance needed for holy water.

 

This is mostly in regards to vampires. Cultist wont be affected much as theres almost never a time when a cultist is fed holy water and theyre not sure whether theyre a cultist is not and thats on the rare occasions cultists are fed holy water because half the time you just valid them becuase you they get teleported away if you dont

[Buford]

1 hour ago, SkeletalElite said:

 

This is mostly in regards to vampires. Cultist wont be affected much as theres almost never a time when a cultist is fed holy water and theyre not sure whether theyre a cultist is not and thats on the rare occasions cultists are fed holy water because half the time you just valid them becuase you they get teleported away if you dont

Playing security almost all the time with the occasional civilian/assistant I see holy water being used heavily. Like a hella lot of holy water. Honestly I don't see how we would be able to stand a chance against cultists if holy water was severely nerfed or made so it harms everyone.

Also yes there is a downside because unlike cult rounds there is a risk of feeding a vampire holy water and it requires fire extinguishers and burn kits. If you manage to kill the vampire with holy water you could be charged with manslaughter or murder (Depending on who the heads are some dgaf since they are EoC) but I've seen someone get charged with battery for breaking a bottle of holy water over a vampire.

[Ziiro]

On 8/27/2017 at 8:01 AM, ZN23X said:

Security isnt allowed to force fees everyone who comes into professing. I've gotten bwoinked for it in the past. There has to be proof they are a vampire, minimum proof being someone seeing them use powers or having a means to restrain people on them i.e. cable cuffs. If someone is force feeding every single person that comes into processing then that needs to be ahelped. Illegal executions should be getting ahelped as well. Sec should be held accountable when they aren't following proper procedure even if only to correct it in the future.

So in theory this is true, but with how many people join and leave security (as well as Chaplains that just stand in processing to force feed water), the simple truth is it's going to keep happening. And when it happens and that person gets ahelped/bwoinked (and learns their lesson for next time), the vampire's round is still ruined even if they were careful in not using their powers or being discovered.

 

On 8/27/2017 at 2:34 PM, DarkPyrolord said:

I find it strange how no one has bought this up yet... but when it comes to cult rounds it would mean you pretty much have to kill cultists as holy water would damage them and charcoal would only hinder the deconversion process as it has a 50% chance to remove 1u of reagents in the cultists system per cycle, as on average it requires around 30u to 40u of holy water to actually cure one of them. In other words it would only cause salt in another way unless the deconversion amount was drastically lowered. Or the whole brain damage thing could come back, I think that would personally be much better as that can be fixed without halting things for too long.

First thought: I'm totally on board for brain damage, if it's high enough to cause some of my favorite hilarious effects. (I will never forget the first time I saw someone bucklecuffed in processing being forcefed holy water and screaming "CAN U GIVE ME HALK?!")

 

Secondly: I was thinking on this, and I feel like it should be a numbers adjustment, so that using holywater should be a careful process, as opposed to CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG.

 

Holy Water should be just toxic enough that 50u kills someone. 30u/40u should deconvert and put them at death's door, but not kill them. I mean this also gives the opportunity for smart security to keep carefully measured stock of 40u holy water pills on hand.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Ziiro
ZN23X response added

[Buford]

13 hours ago, Ziiro said:

So in theory this is true, but with how many people join and leave security (as well as Chaplains that just stand in processing to force feed water), the simple truth is it's going to keep happening. And when it happens and that person gets ahelped/bwoinked (and learns their lesson for next time), the vampire's round is still ruined even if they were careful in not using their powers or being discovered.

 

First thought: I'm totally on board for brain damage, if it's high enough to cause some of my favorite hilarious effects. (I will never forget the first time I saw someone bucklecuffed in processing being forcefed holy water and screaming "CAN U GIVE ME HALK?!")

 

Secondly: I was thinking on this, and I feel like it should be a numbers adjustment, so that using holywater should be a careful process, as opposed to CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG.

 

Holy Water should be just toxic enough that 50u kills someone. 30u/40u should deconvert and put them at death's door, but not kill them. I mean this also gives the opportunity for smart security to keep carefully measured stock of 40u holy water pills on hand.

Every round of cult I've been security as, there have been massive amounts of holy water used and no one get's boinked. However I have seen it less common during vampire rounds because vampires do a pretty good job at being obvious.

Yea I'm sure making the gap between death and dying 10-20u apart would cause over half of security to be permabrigged along with the only chaplain for manslaugher. Sounds like a pain in the ass.

Don't think holy water should have negative effects on anyone because it's just like water and salt mixed together with prayers and shit said over it.

If anything it should slightly heal people by like 2-3% oxygen and burn damage per 50u as that would make a lot more sense but I also think that shouldn't be added either I'm just speaking from a realistic perspective.

It's kinda fail-rpish and a lore-killer if drinking holy water can put you in crit. Can also cause a lot of greytiding from chaplains killing people by feeding them the water randomly.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Buford

[Ralta]

Being forcefed without suspicion is against the law, so should be more ICly reason to enforce this. I got brigged recently after a warden tased me, harmbaton'd me and then forcefed me holy water (I'd done nothing wrong whatsoever). Because I stuttered from being baton'd, he declared I was a cultist and brigged me.

If overzealous security can cause bodily harm by forcing someone to drink holy water, they might rethink their strategy (or it would at least give more credence to IAA/Magistrate appeals to your innocence and their bullshittery).

[Jovaniph]

overdose_threshold = 50

/datum/reagent/medicine/holywater/overdose_process(mob/living/M, severity)
	M.adjustBrainLoss(1)

So something like this? This is just an example.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Jovaniph

[Streaky Haddock]

This is just me, but I feel holy water isn't the problem. I've seen security reach for lethals against cultists when cultists start teleporting, so making their only non-lethal method of dealing with cultists a lethal one is a bad idea. Particularly since a well organised cult can save their members from holy water in the first place.

However, the topic's not directly about cultists. I don't really have a solution to this problem since testing everyone who comes into processing is shitty behaviour and sounds like it's adminhelp-able. It's also not something I've perceived to be epidemic-tier common in processing rooms either as security or a vampire. Not to mention fully powered vampires are immune to holy water anyway. 

[ZN23X]

2 hours ago, Streaky Haddock said:

I've seen security reach for lethals against cultists when cultists start teleporting

Honestly security HAS to use lethals once cultists start teleporting. We have literally no way of preventing them from teleporting and deconversion takes wayyy too long to resort to anything except killing them.

Edited September 3, 2017 by ZN23X

[FPK]

When cultists start teleporting, the only reasonable solution is to start spamming buckshot rounds at cultists as soon as you see one, before they teleport away and you're left with nothing for your efforts. There's no other way to stop a cult with effective teleporters, even if you forcefeed the captured cultist holy water the second you stun them.

[Streaky Haddock]

Can't you duct tape their mouths?