Remove Public Defender alt title.

[Streaky Haddock]

I've noticed Public Defenders tend to shirk many of their IA duties because they feel it's 'not their job'.

I've also noticed that Public Defenders always think its 'their job' to argue with sec about everything. EVERYTHING.

[FPK]

YES. A MILLION TIMES YES.

YOU ARE NOT AN INTERGALACTIC ACE ATTORNEY, YOU ARE NOT A TGSTATION LAWYER/GREYTIDE+, YOU ARE MEANT TO BE A PROFESSIONAL. AHRJRIGJRBDJFJRBFJEBFJEJFIFNROWOWFORNTBFIR

 

 

[bryanayalalugo]

I would say the same with Lawyer too, or, at the most, a different job, since public defender and Lawyer makes one assume they are defending a client, while IAA focus more on corporate regulations.

It also can be unclear to those new to the job if their responsibility, as a Public Defender/Lawyer, is the same to IAA (I even had ahelped it when I used to have the alt title of Lawyer).

[Vargh]

I have to agree with the fact most of the IAA who use that title are idiots who just want to protect Grey Mctyde after kidnapping the captain for full access, but I don't know, we should have more rules about how to play IAA instead, a removed title it's not going to solve that 

[Streaky Haddock]

Nah the Lawyer title is fine because it's ambiguous in its allegiance. The Public Defender title squarely puts the Agent in the camp of the defendants which engenders specific expectations of the agent as well as declaring their mindset from the onset.

[bryanayalalugo]

11 minutes ago, Streaky Haddock said:

Nah the Lawyer title is fine because it's ambiguous in its allegiance. The Public Defender title squarely puts the Agent in the camp of the defendants which engenders specific expectations of the agent as well as declaring their mindset from the onset.

There isn't any clear specifications for Lawyer and Public Defender, besides technically, in some way, they have IAA responsibilities.

 I can mostly see the Lawyer and Public Defender being mostly on the side of the Crew, as both jobs imply that they are there to defend someone during Security proceedings.

[SomeGuy9283]

I once had a "lawyer" help a changeling escape who was due to be executed on account of being a changeling despite their cooperation.

As uncouth as that may sound, thus were the legal orders.

The lawyer did not care, helped them bust out, and fled the station.

Me: "Have you even read the SOP on IAAs?"

Them: "I'm not an IAA, I'm a lawyer."

I have brought this up before, and I believe the Defender title needs to be condemned to flame, and lawyer is sketchy at best.

[Jovaniph]

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/8033

[Fethas]

Thats a problem with the player not the title. Its also a reason to get them fired. and depending on the extent of the players actions. BWOINKed. It is NOT a reason to removal the title.

[Jovaniph]

3 minutes ago, Fethas said:

Thats a problem with the player not the title. Its also a reason to get them fired. and depending on the extent of the players actions. BWOINKed. It is NOT a reason to removal the title.

I put it up at least to see how it goes. It a Pull 'Request' for a reason.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Jovaniph
didn't make sense

[Jovaniph]

Well there you have it folks...Removing Public Defender will not be a thing so try again next time.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Jovaniph

[SomeGuy9283]

While I can appreciate that it is a player issue, why is there a need to defend the titles to begin with?

[Streaky Haddock]

I like titles showing a character's specialty within a field. I just feel that public defender is legitimising an antagonistic relationship with security, same as the drug dealer chemist alt title was legitimising space lube and space drug distribution for chemists.

But the admins have taken a look and closed the PR; so that's that. I'm not annoyed enough with Public Defenders to defend this suggestion to the death.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Streaky Haddock

[FPK]

As someone who's played IAA for far too long, I am very annoyed with public defenders. I thought this was a no brainer change, hence my immensely informal post that I made from my phone. Though the change is minor, the deeper meaning is great to me, and I feel disappointed that the head staff and maintainers believe this to be a solely cultural problem. I strongly advise the head staff and maintainer team to consider what benefits the lawyer/public defender alt-titles bring to the IAA job, beyond increasing job-title variety and complying with the rule of cool.

Edited September 2, 2017 by FPK

[alexpkeaton]

I haven't played IA in some time, but I use the title "Public Defender." And I actually find the opposite of OP's claim to be true.  More than once, when I have gone to do an audit of cargo or an inspection of medbay, I am informed "You're not IA, your job title says 'Public Defender.'" And I have to explain that, yes, I am indeed IA.

I use that title in the hopes that, one day, I can be counsel in a trial.  I've been a magistrate judge in a trial in at least three rounds, but never as counsel.  Just once I would like to try that, and I think defense would be the more challenging role.  I also use the title to make prisoners more likely to engage with me.  I'll sometimes whisper to them that they don't need to answer any questions, but don't typically get in sec's way unless sec is shit.

Edited September 3, 2017 by alexpkeaton

[FPK]

@alexpkeaton I've always admired your work in the legal office as Edwardson, but I think you're in the minority when it comes to people who don't use the alternative titles to validate their destructive actions. I'm sure that I could play IAA with the public defender alt-title and output the same quality of work that I usually do, but my main concern is how the common player, not the experienced agents, treat those alternative titles.

[Vivalas]

I've never understood why public defender / lawyer are a thing and why people want them to stay. It's just not necessary for those titles to exist if the actual job is still just IA. Would I like a lawyer job with perhaps some legal powers? Sure, would be cool. But there is no reason for IAA to be called lawyers, it just causes problems regardless of any player issues.

[alexpkeaton]

For the record, I have no problem if the alt titles are removed from IA.  

The one change I would like to see that I think would better accomplish the intended goal here would be a reorg of IA to be under the NT Rep.  Move IA to the Blueshield's office.  Move Blueshield to Magistrate and Magistrate to the larger IA digs, having a space both for office and for brief hearings.  If IA is under the NT Rep and, probably more importantly, physically located as far from security as offices can get, it can help quash the idea that IA are supposed to tangle with security all the time.  

I know there is resistance to a reorg of IA, but I really think it just makes more sense to have IA under the Rep.  The magistrate is already busy as hell typically while the Rep twiddles his thumbs on the bridge more often than not.  As IA, I have gone to the magistrate with other station concerns, even about command officers, and the magistrate never cared about them - only if it involved security.  This, by the way, is part of the problem.  If your boss is the high-and-mighty spess law czar, you can often have a bunch of mini-magistrates running around with all of the talk and none of the authority.  Give IA to the NT Rep, and your boss is suddenly someone that has exactly zero authority and power save what he is granted by CC and command in certain circumstances.  This proposed change also satisfies the thought that the NT Rep needs something to do.

[SomeGuy9283]

>not disbanding IA and allowing the HOS to conduct field executions on a whim

[Shadeykins]

1 hour ago, alexpkeaton said:

For the record, I have no problem if the alt titles are removed from IA.  

The one change I would like to see that I think would better accomplish the intended goal here would be a reorg of IA to be under the NT Rep.  Move IA to the Blueshield's office.  Move Blueshield to Magistrate and Magistrate to the larger IA digs, having a space both for office and for brief hearings.  If IA is under the NT Rep and, probably more importantly, physically located as far from security as offices can get, it can help quash the idea that IA are supposed to tangle with security all the time.  

I know there is resistance to a reorg of IA, but I really think it just makes more sense to have IA under the Rep.  The magistrate is already busy as hell typically while the Rep twiddles his thumbs on the bridge more often than not.  As IA, I have gone to the magistrate with other station concerns, even about command officers, and the magistrate never cared about them - only if it involved security.  This, by the way, is part of the problem.  If your boss is the high-and-mighty spess law czar, you can often have a bunch of mini-magistrates running around with all of the talk and none of the authority.  Give IA to the NT Rep, and your boss is suddenly someone that has exactly zero authority and power save what he is granted by CC and command in certain circumstances.  This proposed change also satisfies the thought that the NT Rep needs something to do.

There is no intersectionality between the NT Rep and IAA's. The wiki was updated to reflect this, even.

The NT Rep is only to concern themselves with command-level issues unless there's literally no IAA's available.

IAA's are not to concern themselves with command-level issues unless it's to forward it to the NT Rep.

They can work together (as anyone on the station can) but they are not, and should not be, subordinate to one another in any fashion.

The Magistrate's only concern is on Space Law. It even tells them this on round start - they are not to involve themselves with Command problems whatsoever unless it concerns Space Law. Space Law is their job description, effectively - having bridge access and command comms is a courtesy extended to them, not a mandate. You can not fault the Magistrate for not giving two shits about Command-level issues, this would be like faulting the botanist for not performing surgery in medical.

At the end of the day, knowledgeable IAA's wield a tremendous amount of authority for what they do. I don't really think the Nanotrasen Representative (which is a roleplay-oriented role) has much business in having direct authority within the happenings of a department (whereas IAA's certainly have that power when it comes to SoP violations). Over the years it's been repeatedly shown that NT Reps are often incapable of appropriately wielding even their modest authority (remember the stun-cane?), and their power (along with the guidelines surrounding that) has been scaled down on purpose.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Shadeykins

[SomeGuy9283]

Ree, shadey, this thread's supposed to be about lynching the Intergalatic Ace Attorneys. Get your valid points and useful discussion out of here. 

[alexpkeaton]

@Shadeykins I understand how it currently operates and that the wiki has been designed to reflect how it currently operates.  I am saying that, in my opinion, the current setup doesn't work and needs to be changed.  I made my points and I stand by them - it makes more sense if IA was under the Rep instead of the magistrate.  The NT Rep is most apt to respond to SoP issues, not the magistrate.  The NT Rep's commission is more in line with what IA does.  Yes, they have different areas of focus, but that distinction is not incongruent.  It is big picture vs. nitty gritty.

I think IA's get on their high horse often because there is no one who cares to manage them.  Magistrates don't give a shit about IA, often.  So they go rogue.  If they actually reported to someone and that someone had the time to care, maybe IA's wouldn't often spiral into a major headache for security.

[Shadeykins]

2 hours ago, SomeGuy9283 said:

Ree, shadey, this thread's supposed to be about lynching the Intergalatic Ace Attorneys. Get your valid points and useful discussion out of here. 

I've been in a few of these threads, as I've said a billion times I think we should get rid of these alt titles.

@alexpkeaton I think the crux of the issue is the Magistrate is not to involve themselves in SoP whatsoever despite ostensibly leading a department focused on it. But I digress, I do agree these alternate titles should go (ESPECIALLY Public Defender).

Edited September 4, 2017 by Shadeykins

[Kyet]

I agree with removing both the Lawyer and Public Defender titles.

Both of them encourage behavior we don't want (pointless arguing about everything, and always defending criminals, respectively).

Neither of them accurately describe the actual job that IAAs should be doing as well as the IAA title itself does.

While you could argue this is a player behavior issue, rather than a title issue, I think that misses the point.

The point is that these titles *encourage* players to behave that way, and as such, we should remove them.

Will removing them solve all issues with the IAA role? No. Of course not. But at least we won't have titles that actively encourage behavior we don't want.

To me, "don't have systems that encourage bad behavior whilst adding nothing valuable" is just common sense.

Edited September 5, 2017 by tzo

[Streaky Haddock]

I believe alt titles should convey a specialism in that role. And unfortunately, there isn't a lot of room for specialisation in IA. Maybe showing they're more knowledgable in medical SOP, or Law, or what have you.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Streaky Haddock