Rework the Karama System

[finlay3110]

Why should we rework the Karma System?This is a question you may be asking as you read the title of this post. Well kind reader I am here to answer that question for you. Below will be some numerous reasons why the karama system should be re-worked. 

1. Half of the things in the karma system people do not want (I mean who wants to spend 5KP to be a barber) 

2. I shall provide a small example of something recent that happend. Someome in the bar was playing a lovely rendiction of a rick and morty melody and i have checked and no such SS13 music sheet exsists yet. Many people watched and he got praise in LOOC and yet for 4 rounds he got ZERO KP. I thought karma was created so that if you do ejoyable things you get rewarded.

3. Karma is currently being used ot reward Low rp and power gamers. For example if a clown slips half the crew/sec he gets rewarded. Or if someome robusts half the sec crew he gets rewarded. The current Karama System is being used to just reward people who do LOW rp and power game. 

4. Most people dont even provide karama during the round and if they do its normally to there friends.

 

So I suggest a change to the current karma system. 

1. Add rules to the current karma system meaning you cant give it for certain reasons (For example power gamers)

2. Remove certain karma roles/races which are not being used and decrease some of the prices (For example IPC) 

3. Add a reason to why you have karma to that player 

4. Force players at round end to provide karma to a player they believe is worthy 

Edited September 19, 2017 by finlay3110

[Doukan]

TBH I think we should just replace it with <play X days to unlock Y> with the exception of plasmapeople and maybe vox. It's a nice idea and all and is great for rewarding people but too many people get left behind.

[Streaky Haddock]

nah

[TwoCam]

Pretty much anything to fix Karma, which is a broken system that lends itself to all sorts of cliqueishness, etc would be welcome.

At the very minimum, I'd say prices generally need to be reduced by 2/3rds, and most races should be removed from the list. Leave only IPC, Plasmaman, and Vox.

I would also remove the option to disable round end karma reminders. Let everyone see a big old popup.

[Birdtalon]

2 hours ago, finlay3110 said:

So I suggest a change to the current karma system. 

1. Add rules to the current karma system meaning you cant give it for certain reasons (For example power gamers)

2. Remove certain karma roles/races which are not being used and decrease some of the prices (For example IPC) 

3. Add a reason to why you have karma to that player 

4. Force players at round end to provide karma to a player they believe is worthy 

1. Reeee power gamers boo hoo. If someone played well and entertained people why should people not be able to give them Karma just because they were good at combat/mechanics? Reverse this and stand on the other side if somebody suggested that Karma was only allowed to be given for people with good mechanics and robustness that would be ludicrous. Do you see now why this is silly?

2. IPC is one of the most popular races on the station, not to mention one of the cheaper Karma races. I know a couple of people who play Barber, just because you don't doesn't mean it needs removal.

3. This is a pretty good idea if it's optional and the receiving player can see these. So I could support this.

4. No, maybe I don't want to give Karma to anybody. Nobody should be forced to do so.

--

2 hours ago, finlay3110 said:

2. I shall provide a small example of something recent that happend. Someome in the bar was playing a lovely rendiction of a rick and morty melody and i have checked and no such SS13 music sheet exsists yet. Many people watched and he got praise in LOOC and yet for 4 rounds he got ZERO KP. I thought karma was created so that if you do ejoyable things you get rewarded.

Also to clear up this. There is a tool packaged with Paracode called "midi2piano" which will output this kind of sheet music for you automatically so this is hardly an amazing feat.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/tree/master/tools/midi2piano

Edited September 19, 2017 by Birdtalon

[Eler00]

2 hours ago, Birdtalon said:

3. This is a pretty good idea if it's optional and the receiving player can see these. So I could support this.

 

Seconded. I often don't check my Karma after a round and then wonder what I did three rounds later when I suddenly have a few more. I mean, sometimes you can pretty clearly tell what you got it for, but other times it's nearly impossible.

[FoS]

People should be able to give out karma for any reason they want. They should not be punished for not giving out karma or forced to do so if they feel that no one in the round really did anything worthy of their karma. I also disagree with karma prices being reduced, if anything some karma prices should be increased since the server is far more populated and it is much much easier to get karma now with such a high population than it was when the karma shop was implemented and paradise was still a tiny community.

There isn't a problem with the karma system, there is a problem with people's playstyles. Karma isn't about playing only antags and being robust, it isn't about only giving karma to friends, it also isn't about playing certain jobs. Karma in general is rewarded for adopting a certain playstyle.

If the only thing you're concerned about as a player is getting karma you likely are not playing in a way that will get a lot of it. If your focus is karma then your focus is probably on yourself and your personal enjoyment of the round and that is not what gets you karma. Karma is a currency that other players reward individuals who make their experience more enjoyable so you need to stop and think about how your actions will impact other people.

It's also worth noting that even if you do adopt a playstyle where you actually interact with people and make their rounds enjoyable that there is still no guarantee you'll get karma. Each person only gets ONE to give out a round and the server is highly populated so you're competing with everyone else on the server and you probably wont be able to interact with literally everyone. Stop focusing on karma. Focus on having fun and going out of your way to help other people and make sure they have fun too.

A small list of things I recently have given people karma for:

• Security officers who actually did proper arrests, spoke to people and listened to their side and tried to figure out what actually happened in a situation.
• People who see someone laying somewhere and take the time to check on them and help them to medbay instead of ignoring them.
• Antags that actually roleplay with their victims and make their deaths enjoyable instead of a silent execution.
• Crew who step in to do a job that NEEDS to be done that everyone else is neglecting to do.(example: mining isn't mining and research is halted, switching to miner and rushing to help)
• People who go out of their way to help new players ICly and answer their questions and let them learn instead of just taking over their job for them and insulting them.
• Helpful pAIs.
• Antags who give people the opportunity/option to leave before just murdering them.
• Crew who take that opportunity to leave and don't squeal instantly about the antag or come back to murder them.
• Crew in general that dont just scream about who/what killed them or about the round type when it's only a little ways into the round.

 

Don't focus on getting karma and get obsessive about checking it. Ignore karma and enjoy the game since that's what it is supposed to be about anyways. You'll get there eventually.

[Malphystoh]

I think adding the "Reason for Karma" to other players would be really neat. I'd love to hear nice notes from people about RP interactions or the rare time of robustness / antagonist  shenanigans.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Malphystoh
Plays = Players... (sigh)

[Vargh]

People can give karma for what ever they want, what i would REALLY love to see is another pop up after you karma someone with a "reason", so they guy who got karma can check the reasons later on.

[DocSocrates]

1 hour ago, Vargh said:

People can give karma for what ever they want, what i would REALLY love to see is another pop up after you karma someone with a "reason", so they guy who got karma can check the reasons later on.

I like this better than trying to make rules on why you can give karma to someone.  Getting feedback is always a plus.

[Malphystoh]

Feedback will really help people narrow down what it is they do that people like

 

[Tayswift]

Feedback would also endanger the anonymity of the karma system. You might feel compelled to give karma back to whoever gave you the karma. I think it's better if you don't know the reason, otherwise people will be driven to farm karma based on their feedback.

I think the karma system does favor certain people, but there's not much you can do to police the giving of karma. There can often be more than 100 people in the round. That's over 100 karma exchanges for a handful of admins to check, especially if karma is mandatory. They'd have to go through the logs to make sure that no powergamers got karma. Seems a little ridiculous to implement.

[Mayfox]

I am just going to use this thread to shoehorn my own suggestion before making an entirely new thread.

The only thing that does not sit right with me about the system is the name itself. "Karma" carries with it this idea of universal balance: do good things get good things, do bad things get bad things - but only half of it applies to the system.

This is a system where you spend someones approval to get rewards, I think a more fitting name for the currency would be something like "Kudos".

[Malphystoh]

Get back in your sec pod and keep your negativity to yourself!!!! HAH J/K  Those are some pretty good points :( 

[Vargh]

1 hour ago, Tayswift said:

Feedback would also endanger the anonymity of the karma system. You might feel compelled to give karma back to whoever gave you the karma.

Feedback should be anonymous and whoever put his name in the reason label gets a warning, easy

[Tayswift]

2 hours ago, Vargh said:

Feedback should be anonymous and whoever put his name in the reason label gets a warning, easy

In some cases it might not be possible, eg if you save someone and they karma you for saving them. Though I suppose it's not really that big of a deal since a lot of times you can sort of guess why you got karma. So as long as that's the case I think it should be fine.

 

3 hours ago, Malphystoh said:

Get back in your sec pod

You know me too well :)

[TwoCam]

Getting away from adding a field to the system, I would like to ask a question.

What specific design goal does the Karma system serve?

If it's to ensure a minimum competency for things, then really only magistrate, blue shield and NT Rep need to be in there. Everyone else should be time based like normal jobs.

If it's to make sure that certain races don't become to common, then it no longer serves that purpose. A few days ago I played a round where 4 members of command were IPC's. At least half of all RD's seem to be Vox too. Several species (but these two in particular) are simply quite common.

What are we trying to do by keeping this divisive system that locks content, sometimes quite a lot of content (such as easier space exploration or pod shootouts) away from a significant portion of the player base?

Other than the three roles that I listed, what really needs karma?

Edited September 20, 2017 by TwoCam

[Athavirasu Aqua]

On 19/09/2017 at 6:51 AM, finlay3110 said:

Why should we rework the Karma System?This is a question you may be asking as you read the title of this post. Well kind reader I am here to answer that question for you. Below will be some numerous reasons why the karama system should be re-worked. 

1. Half of the things in the karma system people do not want (I mean who wants to spend 5KP to be a barber) 

2. I shall provide a small example of something recent that happend. Someome in the bar was playing a lovely rendiction of a rick and morty melody and i have checked and no such SS13 music sheet exsists yet. Many people watched and he got praise in LOOC and yet for 4 rounds he got ZERO KP. I thought karma was created so that if you do ejoyable things you get rewarded.

3. Karma is currently being used ot reward Low rp and power gamers. For example if a clown slips half the crew/sec he gets rewarded. Or if someome robusts half the sec crew he gets rewarded. The current Karama System is being used to just reward people who do LOW rp and power game. 

4. Most people dont even provide karama during the round and if they do its normally to there friends.

 

So I suggest a change to the current karma system. 

1. Add rules to the current karma system meaning you cant give it for certain reasons (For example power gamers)

2. Remove certain karma roles/races which are not being used and decrease some of the prices (For example IPC) 

3. Add a reason to why you have karma to that player 

4. Force players at round end to provide karma to a player they believe is worthy 

Well, some people can RP and powergame at the same time. But still.

1. No. This is a MRP server, and you don't need to be rewarded for HRP.

2. Sure, but allow people who already spent their karma on those roles/races to refund them.

3. That's fine too.

4. If it was forced, I'd just give karma to a random person, probably. I just forget to give people karma midround.

[Shadeykins]

One of the largest issues with the karma system is not the karma system itself, but our relative lack of things that one can do with their karma.

A regular player quickly accrues (on average) enough karma to buy everything thrice over.

Otherwise...

* Karma serves to keep the rarity of certain races in check. Given that human is our most popular species (by a margin of over 50% according to survey, IIRC) it seems to be doing this function admirably. While there are instances where there is a "higher proportion" of certain species in elevated command roles, this is happenstance - the vast majority of the crew is, has, and always will be human due to simple metrics (most players play as them, all new players lack other species unlocks, and simple game mechanics).

* Karma serves to gate some of the more important jobs. If you want to play Blueshield, NT Rep, or Magistrate for instance you will need to at least put a fair amount of time into the server - this makes people who elect for these more sensitive roles at least somewhat familiar with the backdrop they're playing against compared to fresh players.

* Karma serves as an anonymous token of appreciation/admiration. Nobody is entitled to it or required to give it - it's something nice that someone can award you if they feel like it. The absence of it does not imply someone is somehow a terrible player, and the presence of it does not imply someone is a great player. Having karma merely demonstrates that select individuals found (on whatever unknown grounds) your actions worthy of merit.

As a suggestion...

* Add the ability to purchase extra loadout points (5) for 50 karma. (also add more things to the loadout options in general)

* Add the ability to purchase a single antag token for 100 karma (these are only eligible for minor traitor roles, for reference). This is probably a bit more contentious, but it's literally one token.

or

* Add the ability to spend 100 karma for a fluff item. This won't impact donations for those concerned, as the presence of more fluff items will likely drive people to want them more - meaning we'd see most people opt to donate rather than wait to accrue 100 karma.

Really, in general just add possible expenditures to karma that don't deplete in a single buy, and are 'renewable' karma dumps. This would not only give karma a more useful purpose, but it would also make karma-locked species more rare because people would be driven to save for other purposes.

[Ziiro]

Previous suggestion post on roughly the same topic.

[TwoCam]

7 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

A regular player quickly accrues (on average) enough karma to buy everything thrice over.

 

You see, the fact that this topic has come up repeatedly, people's behavior in OOC, and my own personal experience all make me doubt this statistic.

Do you have logs that you could anonymize that prove this? Otherwise, this seems highly unlikely to me for any reasonable definition of "quickly"

[Shadeykins]

2 hours ago, TwoCam said:

You see, the fact that this topic has come up repeatedly, people's behavior in OOC, and my own personal experience all make me doubt this statistic.

Do you have logs that you could anonymize that prove this? Otherwise, this seems highly unlikely to me for any reasonable definition of "quickly"

Attached files contain karma data mapped against various attributes (karma vs punches thrown, and karma vs time in medbay) for one week (first week of March to be precise). Karma attribution can be used as a rough indicator for playtime in this scenario, since this grouping includes ckeys who were active for as little as thirty seconds (and are mapped as 0 karma received). Graphs provided by Flattest.

You will note that some of the more 'active' ckeys (represented by points) received in excess of 20 karma in a week of play. We'll average to ten, for the sake of it.

10 karma/week is 1.4 karma on average per day. Your possible total expenditure on karma (for all unlocks) is 460 karma points. In the course of active play (receiving our rounded down ten karma in a week) you will, in a mere 328 days, run out of things to purchase in the karma shop in its entirety. This is assuming you're even interested in buying everything to begin with.

If you are one of those gaining twenty karma (not unheard of) during active play, you will accrue this in half the time (164 days) which is less than six months.

The high-earners for karma on the server (which I presume are the people who are relatively well-known or engaging) can unlock Plasmaman in as little as 5 weeks.

I would say that's a pretty quick accruement of karma, personally - but the idea of how quick "quickly" is, is a rather subjective thing in the first place.

[Shotz]

Karma is purely subjective and should remain so. I have the same reaction every time this comes up in OOC (so about every second round or some, seems like it): stop fretting about karma and just play the game. If somebody is entertained watching a clown slipping people all shift and give them a karma point then that's their business. Making it mandatory to provide feedback is just going to encourage even more people to farm karma; something that I feel should be discouraged. This shouldn't be a progression system that should have people grinding, it's a neat little extra feature that should encourage people to be players that other people actually want to play with.

[Rurik]

 

14 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

A regular player quickly accrues (on average) enough karma to buy everything thrice over.

Tfw you consider yourself a regular but can't afford anything interesting thrice over.

[FeiH]

You can provide karma feedback by dividing karma into categories, such as general karma (for points accrued previously), robustness, quality of RP, competency, or humour. Something like league of legends' honor system except visible only to you.

You could anonymously grant someone karma, and an extra step is added where you can pick from a pre-set list of categories. Think captain's medals.