Regarding Changelings Transformation Sting

[Kitchi Ikamura]

So, one round I was doing RnD happily, until I fell victim to the transformation sting

 

The Transformation sting is a changeling Sting that allows the changling to turn other people into someone else, although it sounds good, this can cause problems

The sting can be easily abused, I fell victim to a mass stinging where this one changeling wasn't being so discreet and started turning people into tree's in mass, thoroughly ruining a round easily, The sting should be used for Framing someone, not being a grey tide changeling or to quote on quote "meme"

 

The suggestion is, either change the way the sting works, Nerf it, Make rules regarding its use or removal entirely

I will leave a poll for people to vote on this!

 

[Ziiro]

There was a PR about this recently.

[bryanayalalugo]

Unfortunately, the times I have seen it being used, it has been used in a "memey" way, just to annoy others. I think it should be nerfed, as the sting itself is almost instant and that, if you didn't have any backups, you end up losing your old identity.

It should have a timer on how long it takes to sting someone.

[Vargh]

There are many ways to nerf the sting, because in is current state it's just a grief machine, you can go read my comment at the PR for his removal.

We can make the sting to do what the despriction say and actually damage the changeling genomes, maybe giving cellular damage or a chance for him to randomly change forms.

We could make the victim turn back to is original form after, let's say 10 minutes.

It could be a good tool to distract or frame people, for example make transformatin sting actually an hability who let you turn husks into target genomes, wich actually it could be really cool.

And i have more ideas but i will trow this ones for now.

[Shadeykins]

If you want an easy nerf to the sting, make it delete the genome you've stung the person with.

You stinging people comes at the cost of a loss of your possible identities from earlier DNA extraction stings. This makes its use call for some thinking, because it's now a tactical trade-off. This already has a balancing feature as well wherein a changeling needs to transform in order to DNA extract more than four-five people, so they can't  go around recklessly lol-stinging people with no detriment.

[Da Dman234]

I'm not in favor of removing or nerfing one of the changlings more fun abilities when the only detriment to the person stung is a name change. 

[Mitchs98]

51 minutes ago, Da Dman234 said:

I'm not in favor of removing or nerfing one of the changlings more fun abilities when the only detriment to the person stung is a name change. 

Lol? No. It changes race and name entirely. It's annoying, serves no purpose other than to meme, and is just plain useless. It COULD be useful but most people just use it to meme and upset others.

I'd be all in favor of nerfing it with any of the reasons stated above. I already hate most changelings for being murderboney jerks that think its their admin given right to do so, I hate the ones stinging everyone almost more. That's why every single round there's that one nerd that's memeing everyone I stay in my office or somewhere else no one can ever touch me provided I don't let them in, and I don't unless I know them or they have a really good reason.

Everyone shouldn't have to worry 'Oh god is this jackass going to meme me next?'. It offers very little to the round and gets old after a while.

[Da Dman234]

1 hour ago, Mitchs98 said:

Lol? No. It changes race and name entirely. It's annoying, serves no purpose other than to meme, and is just plain useless. It COULD be useful but most people just use it to meme and upset others.

I'd be all in favor of nerfing it with any of the reasons stated above. I already hate most changelings for being murderboney jerks that think its their admin given right to do so, I hate the ones stinging everyone almost more. That's why every single round there's that one nerd that's memeing everyone I stay in my office or somewhere else no one can ever touch me provided I don't let them in, and I don't unless I know them or they have a really good reason.

Everyone shouldn't have to worry 'Oh god is this jackass going to meme me next?'. It offers very little to the round and gets old after a while.

It actually serves as an incredible defense mechanism, if everyone is the same it makes things hell for security, effectively providing a mask for antagonistic actions provided nobody blatantly see's you murder someone. You can literally just grab some random person's ID and you now have an effective disguise, as half the crew is the same person and they only way to identify them is via ID.

Also, no need to get riled up over such a little thing. I personally much prefer antagonists/changlings have their fun this way then relentlessly murderboning the crew.

[Someonewithapen]

Honestly, toning down the effect of the transformation sting wouldn't hurt. Mainly because it's a bit insane to see the same name screaming bloody murder over comms twelve times at once over how f-ugly they now look.

[Malphystoh]

I enjoyed being randomly Slithed. I ended up hanging out with the real Slith most of that shift *hiss 

[WingedYordle]

13 hours ago, Shadeykins said:

If you want an easy nerf to the sting, make it delete the genome you've stung the person with.

You stinging people comes at the cost of a loss of your possible identities from earlier DNA extraction stings. This makes its use call for some thinking, because it's now a tactical trade-off. This already has a balancing feature as well wherein a changeling needs to transform in order to DNA extract more than four-five people, so they can't  go around recklessly lol-stinging people with no detriment.

I like the idea of deleting the genome.. unless... they take my DNA and change everyone to Wolf. I be OK with that.

[Doukan]

As I said in the PR the TF sting really doesn't need nerfing, it's really easily counterable as is (That guy in a hardsuit ran past me and now I'm a fat space lizard! get him!) with it's long ass cooldown and massive chemical cost (you get spotted running away from that guy who you just TF'd? RIP you most likely), and has seen variable use through the years as it fades in and out of fashion. the whole point of it is to sow chaos and confusion and that's exactly what it does.

I suspect the only reason people are getting salty about it now is because some bright sparks decided to elevate it to meme status using the DNA of the latest popular snuflakes, that'll pass, needlessly nerfing a perfectly good antag ability however would be permanent and real tragedy. It's currently overused yes but that's no excuse to hugbox yet another tactic.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Doukan
moar sodium

[bigfatbananacyclops]

It will need a nerf and a rule added in my opinion, deleting the genome after using it sounds like a real good idea, i mean, you're litterally transfering DNA to someone there's no way of duplicating it, the mainPROBLEM is, changeling players started to get DNA from Cluwnes, Plasmamans, DIona or other races that needs unique requirements. 

They randomly tsting'd people with it, people has been doing it for shits and giggles and it was not objective related at all, and clearly their DNA is endless and somehow duplicating which it shouldnt be.

Im very sure this is a rule that needs to be added, or it already is because you're clearly murderboning/ruining people's rounds randomly without being objective-related.

This is on a level of hijack objectives which changelings dont get.

Here's some examples that actually happened to me and witnessed during rounds with changelings.

I was doing medical and all i wanted to do is set up a surgery room and do my job, i went to cargo to get tools to fix my theatre, when i went there, i got transformed into a diona for absolutely no reason, the guy who turned me just walked away and did it for shits and giggles, this seriously pissed me off that i ahelped it and went to cryo, and it ruined my bloody round. because i didnt wanna walk slow all this damn shift

I wasn't the only victim of being turned into a diona, rather more people even got turned into diona's.

There was another round of a cling massively turning everyone into literal cluwnes.

I honestly think that changelings shouldnt be able to get cluwne's DNA.

i've watched other people get transformed into plasma and really it ended their whole round because medbay can't even revive them.

Or like being turned into a shadow person for no reason, and i had to be in maint this whole time

Edited October 15, 2017 by bigfatbananacyclops

[Doukan]

1 hour ago, bigfatbananacyclops said:

It will need a nerf and a rule added in my opinion, deleting the genome after using it sounds like a real good idea, i mean, you're litterally transfering DNA to someone there's no way of duplicating it, the mainPROBLEM is, changeling players started to get DNA from Cluwnes, Plasmamans, DIona or other races that needs unique requirements. 

They randomly tsting'd people with it, people has been doing it for shits and giggles and it was not objective related at all, and clearly their DNA is endless and somehow duplicating which it shouldnt be.

Im very sure this is a rule that needs to be added, or it already is because you're clearly murderboning/ruining people's rounds randomly without being objective-related.

This is on a level of hijack objectives which changelings dont get.

Here's some examples that actually happened to me and witnessed during rounds with changelings.

I was doing medical and all i wanted to do is set up a surgery room and do my job, i went to cargo to get tools to fix my theatre, when i went there, i got transformed into a diona for absolutely no reason, the guy who turned me just walked away and did it for shits and giggles, this seriously pissed me off that i ahelped it and went to cryo, and it ruined my bloody round. because i didnt wanna walk slow all this damn shift

I wasn't the only victim of being turned into a diona, rather more people even got turned into diona's.

There was another round of a cling massively turning everyone into literal cluwnes.

I honestly think that changelings shouldnt be able to get cluwne's DNA.

i've watched other people get transformed into plasma and really it ended their whole round because medbay can't even revive them.

Or like being turned into a shadow person for no reason, and i had to be in maint this whole time

In all honesty I don't think species like diona/vox/plasmaman shouldn't be TF'able if we want to apply (space) logic, then however that gives them an unfair advantage and firmly deviates from the sidegrade philosophy that's supposed to govern the non-human playable species. Yeah your round gets "ruined" but that's kinda part of the cling's job, especially since it's usually directed at the folks who're in sec/command.

Ideally we'd have species quotas (too many slimes/vox!) and this wouldn't be an issue but that's not gonna happen. Alternatively I'd suggest having "non standard" DNA like plasmaman/vox/diona/slime/cluwne/shadowpeople be non extractable ala with IPCs, said species should still be susceptible to being TF stung, just not to having their own DNA taken, that'd remove the griff potential whilst still enabling the !!fun!!.

[Machofish]

I'll frame my opinion this way: The transformation sting may not be a particularly OP from a mechanical standpoint, but it is highly damaging to the RP level of the server. The bottom line of this ability is, that the less interested a player is in their character and the less invested they are in RP, the less annoying this ability will be to them. The high investment of transform sting means that a changeling who picks it will have a much tougher time grabbing their objectives, but often that's of little concern to the players who choose it in the first place.

So this begs the question: Does this server want its players to care about RP? At present, transform sting delivers the answer as a resounding, "No. Stop caring about your stupid snowflake RP and let the shenanigans commence."

As for how 'obvious' the ability is, there is little to no indication giving away who is responsible for stinging. From personal experience, the transformation has a slight delay after the sting has been delivered, or can be delivered from a distance, meaning it's entirely possible for someone to sting and mingle into a crowd before the victim realizes they've been stung. A generic baldy greytider is really not going to care what appearance their character takes so long as they can continue cruising for valids. On the other hand, the average server regular who actively tries to contribute to the community will be moderately more upset at having their character taken away from them. It's not a question of mechanical viability - because from a mechanical standpoint, transform sting is actually pretty terrible at bringing a changeling closer to their objectives - it's a question of what sort of community mindsets and behaviors the staff want to encourage or punish by abilities like these.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Machofish

[Doukan]

5 minutes ago, Machofish said:

I'll frame my opinion this way: The transformation sting may not be a particularly OP from a mechanical standpoint, but it is highly damaging to the RP level of the server. The bottom line of this ability is, that the less interested a player is in their character and the less invested they are in RP, the less annoying this ability will be to them. The high investment of transform sting means that a changeling who picks it will have a much tougher time grabbing their objectives, but often that's of little concern to the players who choose it in the first place.

So this begs the question: Does this server want its players to care about RP? At present, transform sting delivers the answer as a resounding, "No. Stop caring about your stupid snowflake RP and let the shenanigans commence."

As for how 'obvious' the ability is, there is little to no indication giving away who is responsible for stinging. From personal experience, the transformation has a slight delay after the sting has been delivered, or can be delivered from a distance, meaning it's entirely possible for someone to sting and mingle into a crowd before the victim realizes they've been stung. A generic baldy greytider is really not going to care what appearance their character takes so long as they can continue cruising for valids. On the other hand, the average server regular who actively tries to contribute to the community will be moderately more upset at having their character taken away from them. It's not a question of mechanical viability - because from a mechanical standpoint, transform sting is actually pretty terrible at bringing a changeling closer to their objectives - it's a question of what sort of community mindsets and behaviors the staff want to encourage or punish by abilities like these.

What RP?

Outside of the closed circles of sec/command/actual honest to god snowflakes/the oh so rare entire department full of people who know how to *me correctly there isn't much of it byond not being blatantly OOC. Yeah officially the server is "medium RP" but aside from the rule against no actual OOC in IC and the vague guideline of "SS13 being an RP game" there's zilch in terms of policy nevermind reality IMO. perhaps others have a different view but I personally don't see any of it and I'm the kind of weirdo who does paragraph long *slowly raises the claw of his hand in a threatening gesture* sort of stuff.

[Machofish]

3 minutes ago, Doukan said:

What RP?

Outside of the closed circles of sec/command/actual honest to god snowflakes/the oh so rare entire department full of people who know how to *me correctly there isn't much of it byond not being blatantly OOC. Yeah officially the server is "medium RP" but aside from the rule against no actual OOC in IC and the vague guideline of "SS13 being an RP game" there's zilch in terms of policy nevermind reality IMO. perhaps others have a different view but I personally don't see any of it and I'm the kind of weirdo who does paragraph long *slowly raises the claw of his hand in a threatening gesture* sort of stuff.

So let me just, clear this up, because I think I'm not getting something here:

1. You're frustrated that there isn't more emphasis on RP in the server at present.

2. Yet you're actively speaking out against a stance that something should be changed to make RP easier for the server?

Yeah, "The situation is bad and I don't like it so let's not change things and actively resist any attempt to make it any different"? What? I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume that I'm not understanding your point of view because I'm just not getting the point: What RP-mechanic relation do you want to see here? And what would you like to see happen to make more progress towards the balance you want? At the moment it sounds like you're arguing against yourself, and this confuses me.

[Doukan]

3 minutes ago, Machofish said:

So let me just, clear this up, because I think I'm not getting something here:

1. You're frustrated that there isn't more emphasis on RP in the server at present.

2. Yet you're actively speaking out against a stance that something should be changed to make RP easier for the server?

Yeah, "The situation is bad and I don't like it so let's not change things and actively resist any attempt to make it any different"? What? I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume that I'm not understanding your point of view because I'm just not getting the point: What RP-mechanic relation do you want to see here? And what would you like to see happen to make more progress towards the balance you want? At the moment it sounds like you're arguing against yourself, and this confuses me.

Little bit of both, moar decent quality RP with people behaving nicely would be great. However the TF sting isn't necessarily antithetical to this IMO. Especially since it could be reacted too in so many ways but instead folks always choose the "shit rounds over man rounds over" approach.

It depends more on how people react to it I think, but that and RP standards in general deserve their own thread.

[TwoCam]

I've gotta say, writing a literal paragraph is pretty much the definition of HRP.

Not trying to be offensive or anything, but I don't think that having super long poses become the norm is something this community desires.

[necaladun]

Please try to keep things on track - a discussion about HRP etc is better for another thread. Keep this one about the transformation sting, please.

[Someonewithapen]

I guess you could say this thread really transformed.

I will stand by my statement that I'll agree with a nerf of the sting. A cooldown, at least. Having most of the station and/or security force suddenly turn into either the same guy or a species that cripples them greatly is less a "defense mechanism" and more along the lines of "releasing the engine" levels of antagory.

[Rumiluntti]

I would just suggest getting less attached to your character, they might die or get transformed. Welcome to the game.
It's a great way to meld into the crowd when you're not the only "Tider McGrey" with the wrong ID on you.
Makes people bother you less in general when you are wearing a wrong ID

[necaladun]

I think it's actually a good chance to define your character and all that - how would they react to being transformed, how do they act to distinguish themselves, etc? Do they care about their physical appearance, do they hate being transformed into someone they dislike, etc. 

 

[Malphystoh]

34 minutes ago, necaladun said:

I think it's actually a good chance to define your character and all that - how would they react to being transformed, how do they act to distinguish themselves, etc? Do they care about their physical appearance, do they hate being transformed into someone they dislike, etc. 

 

Do they decide that they are now the real Slith and all other Sliths must bend the knee?!! *Hiss!!! 

[necaladun]

For me, a lot of the fun (moreso with mindswap tbh) is proving who the real one is, or trying to convince people who you really are, especially without ID. It allows for some amazing RP moments.