Suggestion: Non Karma Racial Stuff

[Fethas]

Okay so due to recent things on dark sight various issues have come up, namely racial pro, cons and how to balance.

Another idea is a trait system, some thought needs to be done on that as well as coding.

I would like to focus on baseline suggestion on the NON KARMA races WITHOUT traits first however.

So i am gonna list what each race has and we can go on suggestions from there.

 

Humans:

Pros: Pale fleshy things,

Cons: PALE FLESHY THINGS,

Other:...fleshy things?

Unathi:

Pros: Darksight(3), Claws

Cons:

Other: Racial temperature intolerance (cold not as impactful as you think), Can eat some simple mobs(mouse,Chick/Chicken,Lizards,crabs,Butterflys,Parrots,Tribbles)

Tajaran:

Pros:Darksight(Value in flux due to PR but say 6), Claws

Cons:

Other: Racial temperature intolerance (heat not as impactful as you think), Can eat some simple mobs(mouse,Baby Chicks,Butterfly,Parrots,Tribbles)

Vulpakanin

Pros:Darksight(Value in flux due to PR but say 6), Claws

Cons:

Other: Can eat some simple mobs(mouse,Chick/Chicken,Lizards,crabs,Butterflys,Parrots,Tribbles)

Skrell:

Pros:Can Breath under water

Cons:Very Weak Alchohal Tolerance

Other:Has a headpocket to store one item.

Diona:

Pros:Do not need to eat, Regen in light, Do not need to breath, Space proof, Feels No Pain, Can Wear socks, No Blood

Cons:SLOWSLOWSLOWSLOW, Takes damage in dark, Damage from plant-b-gone

Other: Can absorb Nymphs.

 

No there is a bunch of PR related to darksight right now, such as a PR for flashs related to darksight. I am not focusing on darksight, if it comes up in relation to something fine, but i am looking of what pros and cons can be added to any of the races listed to make them more flavorful..and not in the wanting to cook them sense..

 

..Though if we HAD to cook them...

Edited January 3, 2018 by Fethas

[Tayswift]

9 minutes ago, Fethas said:

Skrell:

Pros:Can Breath under water

Cons:

Other:Has a headpocket to store one item.

I would count the headpocket as a pro. But there's also alcohol weakness, which is a very significant con, since 15u of ethanol incapacitates a skrell for around 90 seconds.

[Fethas]

yeah i knew i would forget some.

[The Respected Man]

I will leave my suggestions on how to balance the races, take it or leave it. 

-laser=20 damage

Unathi:

Pros:

The darksight they already have + Immune to poisonous chems, immune to diseases (just make them immune to all level 7 viral biohazards, but not immune to viruses from virology - I do not know much in way of code but i think this can be done by having all unathi join the game with anti-bodies inside of them for all the viral biohazards such as the cold, brain rot, magnetitis and so on, but not immune to a freshly made disease from virology)

can also run slightly faster than other races

Cons: They are easier to kill than a human, for example, if 5 lasers are enough to crit a human, 4 lasers are enough to crit an unathi. They're a sly race but can get delicate

 

Tajaran: It is my opinion that they share the exact same qualities as the vulps with only a couple minor differences to tell them apart. 

 

Vulpkanin: 

Pros: The darksight they already have + resistant to cold due to insulation

Cons: Same as Unathi - they are less durable and therefore have slightly less health. 4 lasers will be enough to put them into a critical vs a human's 5 lasers and Vulps can have their heat insulation exploited by setting them on fire. A human on the other hand has no heat insulation (no fur) and will take less burn damage from being set on fire. 

 

Skrell: Keep as is

 

Diona: Keep as is

 

edit: I want to note that while it seems i am nerfing Vulps harder than unathi, this is because vulps have DOUBLE the darksight the unathi have and so i do not leave much room for a + for their race with their powerful darksight. 

Edited January 3, 2018 by The Respected Man

[Jountax]

I would make both tajarans and vulpkanins less likely to put themselves out when resisting while on fire.

The colorblindness affecting wiring (and tars/vulps all being colorblind) seems like another flavorful nerf for them (assuming the greyscale effect is removed/made optional). Same with their eyes glowing in the dark.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Jountax

[TrainTN]

2 hours ago, The Respected Man said:

I will leave my suggestions on how to balance the races, take it or leave it. 

-laser=20 damage

Unathi:

Pros:

The darksight they already have + Immune to poisonous chems, immune to diseases (just make them immune to all level 7 viral biohazards, but not immune to viruses from virology - I do not know much in way of code but i think this can be done by having all unathi join the game with anti-bodies inside of them for all the viral biohazards such as the cold, brain rot, magnetitis and so on, but not immune to a freshly made disease from virology)

can also run slightly faster than other races

Cons: They are easier to kill than a human, for example, if 5 lasers are enough to crit a human, 4 lasers are enough to crit an unathi. They're a sly race but can get delicate

Immune to all poisons, most diseases that they'll ever encounter, minor darksight, claws, and a speed boost, in exchange for being slightly more fragile than a human being? That really does not sound right to me, the karma-locked races have lesser benefits than all that. Heck, most of the karma-locked races feel like they have decent strengths but awful weaknesses that kill my interest in playing them, but that's off-topic.

As for Vulps, at least give them the Tajs' vulnerability to heat, as negligible a weakness as it is. The two species are probably going to be exactly the same no matter what because nothing makes them biologically distinct from each other. The only drawback I can think of for these three species (considering there's very little "alien" about them) is that their nutriment bars drain at an increased rate due to less developed and nuanced digestive tracts, being mostly carnivorous and thus requiring more food to compensate. Not that I actually know anything about biology and could be completely wrong about how that works, but it's the only thing I got. Of the vanilla races, diona are the only ones who are actually unique aliens and not just a human with claws who can see in the dark.

[Fethas]

yeah i kinda agree on the unathi stuff being much though i can see what you are going for (real life reptile inspiration here?)

Good effort though!

On the heat thing, Taj already have the heat intolerance its  just not as notable. The temp thing was something i was thinking on but not sure how far you want to go with it or what should do, Want to make it flavorful but not tooo annoying. 

[KingPhilipIII]

Taj definitely need their flags on their claws changed. I have no issue with the sharp flags making me bleed but if I had a nickle for every time I've had one decapitate me I could probably buy a candy bar.

[BottomQuark]

7 hours ago, The Respected Man said:

Unathi:

Cons: They are easier to kill than a human, for example, if 5 lasers are enough to crit a human, 4 lasers are enough to crit an unathi. They're a sly race but can get delicate

Unathi have scales right? I'd say scales are more resistant than skin. I'd leave the demage as default.

I'd change that on : Unathi receive 2x suffocation demage, and loose nutriment 1.5 times faster than humans.

There is no real logical reason. Just suggestion.

[Eagle982]

Why is it that Tajarans and Vulpkanin, non-karma races, have bigger benefits than a karma race like Unathi?

[Dumbdumn5]

Unathi aren't a karma race @Eagle982

[Eagle982]

2 minutes ago, Dumbdumn5 said:

Unathi aren't a karma race @Eagle982

Sir, it would seem I've been living a lie. Thank you.

[davidchan]

I'd like to point out the Unathi weakness to cold DOES affect gameplay more than people think. Breaches are extra dangerous to them because they take additional burn damage as the temperature drops and they start piling on damage sooner, so not only do they take more damage, they experience soft crit slow down sooner making a breach that a human could run through still in the yellow, an unathi might be lucky to get through before hitting crit and possibly collapse and go into hard crit, where a tajaran just might get knocked out of the green.

 

Though as far as racial changes I'd like to see considered, I have few ideas that would certainly change how races approach problems.

 

Diona: Water reliance. Inverse of Grey's, Diona should need water for their healing to take effect, whether it be making their hunger bar almost entirely reliant on water and fertilizers, to just a running requirement for them to need to regularly be splashed with water, sprayed, shower or drink a glass from time to time to prevent withering. This could also make reagents like drying powder be a soft counter to Diona as drying up their water reserves would be a way to negate their healing without necessarily killing them like atrazine.

 

Taj/Vulp: Combustion risk. Taking burn damage from lasers or other high heat sources should have a chance to combust their fur, dealing extra damage and push these races into being a bit more cautious around anyone with a laser rifle or similar fire starting weapon that could do significant harm even on a stray shot.

 

Unathi: Tail slap. Iguanas are known to use their tails as clubs when agitated, and Unathi would have the most solid/muscular tails of all races in the game currently. A tail slap attack every 15-30 seconds would be an interesting combat buff for the otherwise unexceptional race, either a tile targeted melee attack for bonus unarmed damage (perhaps even usable while cuffed  but no buckled) or a tail sweep with a high trip/disarm chance against the three tiles directly adjacent to them in which ever direction they target the attack. (One or the other, not both abilities.)

[tiredbum]

To try to keep my hatred of the furry beasts to a minimum, I would increase the chance a disarm shove would work on knocking them down, if I'm following this whole 'slender' thing right 

Edited January 4, 2018 by tiredbum

[LittleBigKid2000]

I think I heard from somewhere (I don't recall where, so don't take this as absolute, certain fact) that plantigrade (Standing on the heel, like hairless monkeys do) feet allow one to throw a stronger punch than digitigrade (Standing on the toes). If Tajara and Vulpkanin canonically have digitigrade feet, it would make sense for their punches to be weaker. It would also make sense from a game design perspective, as Vulp/Taj players would be trading raw brute damage for bleeding effects.

Unathi, in Bay lore, have plantigrade feet, and I don't recall seeing anything contradicting that in Paradise lore, so this wouldn't apply to them.

Though, I don't think small changes in unarmed attack damage or whether or not a species has sharp unarmed attacks really matters. Anyone using unarmed attacks is probably either doing it for roleplay (and thus not intending to maim or kill the person), griefing (And thus likely just playing a bald, 30 year old human wearing a grey jumpsuit), or are using krav maga, sleeping carp, or just spamming disarm, if you can call those unarmed attacks. Most people actually intent on killing someone are probably using either an actual weapon (like an E-Sword or armblade if the respective antag, or an e-gun or their baton if security) or the nearest toolbox like a true spessman.

[TrainTN]

3 hours ago, LittleBigKid2000 said:

Though, I don't think small changes in unarmed attack damage or whether or not a species has sharp unarmed attacks really matters.

I think being able to decapitate people with your bare hands does matter.

[Tayswift]

As other races power creep upward, what do people think of a thematic buff for humans? Humans are exceptional for their enormous endurance, having been endurance hunters that chased their prey for hours until it died of exhaustion, and also ran marathons and stuff. Maybe they should have a bit more stamina/be more resistant to stamina damage or something?

[Fethas]

well this is space humans, if we go there we kinda get into a whole subspecies concept of things..and that would need a overhaul of how our our species code is handled (something some of us want to do but we got a few roadblock..namely our icon code)

[TrainTN]

10 hours ago, Tayswift said:

As other races power creep upward, what do people think of a thematic buff for humans? Humans are exceptional for their enormous endurance, having been endurance hunters that chased their prey for hours until it died of exhaustion, and also ran marathons and stuff. Maybe they should have a bit more stamina/be more resistant to stamina damage or something?

Humans need to be the baseline to which everything is measured. If the other races are creeping up it would be better to nerf them back down.

[Tayswift]

Right now, cause humans don't have anything special, every species that receives a buff must get a nerf in return. Giving humans an advantage in something means other species can also be just good at something without having a drawback added on. Just a shower thought though, I don't mind the whole adding a strength along with a weakness philosophy.

 

[Nayser]

I'd argue that races are mostly in good spot right now. Humans have one strength everyone seems to forget. Lack of tails. Believe me or not it gives them advantage when it comes to disguise. You can always tell who the person is by looking at the tail, making it really hard to hide identity for species with tails and some others. The only way to completely hide for tailed species is to wear space suit without racial sprite or change their appearance, latter being hardest.

Although i'd give plasmaman some downsides, right now they are basicly vox+ with so many advantages and main one being ability to easily walk from atmosphere to space, but thats just my opinion. When i ask whats the downside of plasmaman, people always tell me that it's hard to revive them and if you take off their suit they die, latter being kind of dumb, since if you can take off some one's suit, chances are you can bash them with toolbox just as easily if not easier.

Although we shouldn't be so afraid of balance issues, if we were tortured by atmos tests in past, we certainly can survive race changes as tests to see if people are okay with it, which honestly seems a lot less harmful than the previous. (Vietnam flashbacks of scrubbers of death)

What i'm saying is, being a little brave wouldn't hurt.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Nayser

[Jountax]

Speaking of plasmamen, they are also immune to viruses. While technically a double edged sword, it's more of a downside than an upside IMO. You can't be infected by a traitor virologist sure, but how often do those happen, and when they do how often do they have hijack (which you need to have to not get banned for making a plague), and of those, how many decide to make a plague instead of the usual "make escape a death trap and emag the shuttle" route? I'd bet my bottom dollar the answer is "not many." And on top of all that, viruses are generally very easy to cure, and only those well versed in virology would know how to make something deadly enough to take seriously.

It is far more likely for your immunity to viruses to simply lock you out of beneficial ones, which can and do save people's lives when jumped by an antag who knocks them into crit and then leaves them to die.

 

Probably doesn't balance them out entirely, but I couldn't pass up a chance to rant about virology a little.

[Fethas]

so this has kinda stagnated so some final dicussion behind the scenes with powers that be lend to the idea of Diona and water and possible the unathi speed and tail be good bets.

Maybe i can add a bit more flavor to temperature tolerances, if anyone has any other ideas please get them in as i may start working on this on my days off.

[Shadeykins]

Well, if we're implementing traits - I suggest we go the tried and tested route for humans.

Humans have a certain adaptability, a general competency at things.

Give them a trait that allows them at a basic level to be marginally more competent in some designated category.

In an "attribute" system, this would look like giving them 1-2 extra attribute points in lieu of any special ability.

[Fethas]

my goal is to get to tairts..I am gonna do some baseline stuff on karma and non karma..then i need to get a framework ported/made. i got a few other things i want to do before a framework so may be a bit.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Fethas