Creating a second AI

[EvadableMoxie]

I'm not really sure what the right forum for this is.  I don't have a complaint about a specific player, so I guess it's a suggesting regarding the rules and enforcement. And just to preface I'm specifically talking about situations where the original AI is fully intact, responsive, and not malfunctioning.

I just want to have a conversation about this, because I've just wiped my core as A.N.G.E.L ending my round early after it happened.  This isn't the first time either, both when I'm the AI and when I'm not. Creating additional AIs has become something on a regular occurrence.  Having multiple AIs is always a mess.  We don't have multiple captains or multiple heads of security.  Multiple AIs are even worse than that.  And imagine if it was possible for ANYONE, even a non-antag to arrange for a second, third, or fifth captain to arrive using easily acquired materials.  Why is this allowed? The HoP isn't allowed to create a bunch of clown slots to create chaos when they aren't an Antag.  Shouldn't the same type of sanity checks be in place regarding the AI?

Sure, I could have stayed in the round. I could have pointed out creation of the second AI when the first is fully functional and not subverted is illegal.  I could demand the person who did it be arrested.  That's pointless.  Rarely will security care.  When the second AI came online I was trying to get security to give a vox their mask and tank back, the idea that I could get them to do anything about the construction of a second AI is just laughable.  It's less fun for me to remain in the round than it is for me to just wipe my core and leave feeling like shit.

And even if security or command care and the person is arrested and charged, what about the second AI? You either destroy it, removing that player from the round, card it, basically removing that player from the round, or leave it be.  There's no way to turn an AI back into a borg, so no matter what someone's round is getting messed up. It's an action that is, by it's nature, irreversible. It can't ever really be fixed.

Roboticist rarely know how to control which AI Borgs are synced to, so all new borgs will go to the new AI.  No one ever addresses one AI or another specifically, so you never know who someone is talking to or which AI is doing what. The borgs are completely confused on who to follow, you have 2 AIs announcing the same things, or even different things.  They might have different lawsets or simply different interpretations of the same lawset. 

Now again, I don't mind that a second AI can happen. I'm not saying it should never happen.  I don't mind if it happens because the admins want to do something special, or even if it's something like a traitor RD. There was a 5 AI round the admins did last week and I had on problem with it, I actually enjoyed it.  But when literally anyone, including non-antags can do it without asking the original AI if they're okay with it and just ruin their round, I think it's something that should be addressed. I really like playing A.N.G.E.L and really like playing AI but when this happens I just get so upset about it that I can no longer enjoy the round.

I guess what I'm really asking here is if it should be legit for non-traitors to simply construct a second AI at whim without consulting the original AI. I'm just feeling really upset and frustrated about this issue. It's just such an incredibly insulting and discourteous thing to do to someone that I just have to walk away when it happens, even if I just see it happening to another AI, let alone when my own round is ruined by it. If the answer is "Tough shit, it happens." I'll accept that and have to decide if I'm going to keep playing AI, but I again, I just sort of want to have the conversation and see what others think about it.

Edited January 10, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[Tayswift]

I agree. You should have to be antag to make a second AI or adminhelp to make another AI (maybe an AI is a traitor and you need the second AI to take it out). I was a borg that round and it was so confusing cause new AIs were popping up everywhere.

[Spacemanspark]

As painful as it is to say it, I have to agree that it gets out of hand when a new AI pops up out of nowhere midround. 

If admins create multiple AIs at the start of a round, it generally ends a lot better. 

[Shadeykins]

Constructing a new AI already requires Captain-level authorization IIRC.

[EvadableMoxie]

20 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

Constructing a new AI already requires Captain-level authorization IIRC.

It does, but it's still happening a lot because:

1. A lot of Captain's are incompetent. There was a round where immediately at the start the RD asked the Captain if they could just make themselves a second AI and the Captain actually said yes and insisted even when I told him I would core wipe if they did that. I had to ahelp to have that resolved.

2. As I stated in my first post, the fact that it's illegal isn't deterring people.  Security and command are simply NOT punishing people for doing it. If they do, what exactly is it listed under? Is it grand sabotage to make a second AI? Just sabotage? Workplace hazard?  Or is it not illegal at all, just an SoP violation? What should the punishment be? No one really knows.

Some laws are and should be enforced both OOC and IC because of how harmful they can be.  For example, it's illegal to blow up the station with explosives, both IC and OOC.  Security isn't always competent and even if they are, when it's non-antags doing it security might be too busy dealing with the actual antags to handle it.

Edited January 10, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[Spacemanspark]

If people want to build one, perhaps both them and the AI to be should agree to card the AI upon creation, only moving to a core if absolutely needed. Otherwise, it could be held on a head of staff or the captain. 

[BottomQuark]

I'd say it should be IAAs//NT Rep job to sort that out. Sadly 99% of them are incompetent, or simply does not care.

I get the problem and reasoning behind it, but I think we should leave that as just IC problem, and should be resolved in game.

And maybe let admins scream at the command "YOU ARE ALL FIRED" as CC, because they ignored SoP.

[EvadableMoxie]

5 minutes ago, BottomQuark said:

I'd say it should be IAAs//NT Rep job to sort that out. Sadly 99% of them are incompetent, or simply does not care.

 

Which is why saying it should be an IC problem is basically saying "We're not going to solve this problem."

The reason for this post is that I don't feel the IC solutions are working, for all the reasons I've listed.

Edited January 10, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[Rurik]

I don't play AI, so I will never know how it feels to have a second AI made when you're the original. However, I do know how it feels for someone to make someone else the same role as you without asking even though your role is solo. For example when HoP's make a second chef without asking the first and then acting surprised when the first one gets angry. For that reason alone, I could definitely see how multiple AI's popping up every round is a serious issue, and how much that would suck if you're the original. 

As BottomQuark said, I would say if it should remain a IC issue. At the same time however, that doesn't really solve or fix anything. I am torn, really.

[Jountax]

I was once turned into an AI during a nukie round specifically to pilot an exosuit without its destruction meaning I'd have to be retrieved. I feel like if this is going to be a thing that is to be enforced, edge cases like this should be thought about ahead of time.

[davidchan]

Maybe we could add some code to slave secondary AIs to the main AI as if they were Borgs?

 

I play silicon a fair bit and have mixed feelings on multiple AIs, it can be lots of fun during low pressure rounds to have 2 or 3 others in the core to mess with the crew or split up responsibilities and departments.

On the other side having another AI work around you can be infuriating especially when they approach requests differently and lead the crew to believe they or your Borgs could be rogue

[Bxil]

1 hour ago, davidchan said:

Maybe we could add some code to slave secondary AIs to the main AI as if they were Borgs?

Just wanted to say this. Whenever we have multiple AIs when I am the captain I upload a freeform to the younger ones saying that they are slaved to the first.

[Jountax]

Having AIs be subservient to other AIs is actually a pretty cool idea.

[Rumiluntti]

It's already in the SOP. Does it really need admin babysitting

[Aceluke123]

In my opinion you should just do as you stated. Wipe if they decide to make another AI. Also some objectives that exist are for someone to steal a functional AI. I know you aren’t talking about that but making an AI needs to be able to be done not super easily but doable.

 

From your point of view it seems you have to deal with quite a bit of an annoying science department. I would try to monitor them and inform the captain about your views of having multiple AIs. Secondary I do believe creating an AI without authorization should be theft/grand theft due to their mishandling of important crew supplies to create something for themselves.

 

Personally I prefer 2 AIs die to their useful nature on the station. Typically when there are 2 AIs when I play on insane rounds they work together quite well and assign each other departments to control and assist. Usually 1 Security/Command, the other deals with the normal crew.

 

On another note, I really do enjoy ANGEL as an AI/borg so I do hope you prefer to stay playing on paradise and don’t have to quit due to an annoying game mechanic people abuse.

[Tayswift]

Sop doesn't help at all because it's sop. Besides, the AI in question on this round was built on the white ship, have fun demoting and destroying that AI.

Wiping doesn't help the confusion because it frees up the AI slot and results in another AI joining, adding to the confusion.

I don't like the idea of a command/security AI. Most AIs already don't give a shit about their laws and just act as a member of command anyway, do we really need to worsen this issue?

 

[EvadableMoxie]

What Tayswift said.  The AI also has no authority to order security to arrest someone or tell a department head to demote someone. The AI isn't really even supposed to care about Space Law and SoP other than them being a means to the end of following it's laws. 

Most IC issues are IC issues because you have an IC recourse if it happens. There is no IC recourse for the AI in this situation. 

Setting aside if a second AI is beneficial or not, what does being a command / security AI mean to an AI on corporate, anyway?  It can't not care about someone breaking windows in engineering, it has to care it's in it's laws to care. The AI laws sets are written under the assumption that there is one AI, they don't include any clauses about teaming up with another AI to divide the load.  If two AIs are on corporate both of them are required by their laws to care about the entire station, they can't just decide to only care about specific departments.   You could law them separately but that's generally an even worse idea because if those two AIs wound up in a situation where their laws are contrary to each others, it's going to be bad. 

[Dinarzad]

1 hour ago, EvadableMoxie said:

What Tayswift said.  The AI also has no authority to order security to arrest someone or tell a department head to demote someone. The AI isn't really even supposed to care about Space Law and SoP other than them being a means to the end of following it's laws. 

Most IC issues are IC issues because you have an IC recourse if it happens. There is no IC recourse for the AI in this situation. 

Setting aside if a second AI is beneficial or not, what does being a command / security AI mean to an AI on corporate, anyway?  It can't not care about someone breaking windows in engineering, it has to care it's in it's laws to care. The AI laws sets are written under the assumption that there is one AI, they don't include any clauses about teaming up with another AI to divide the load.  If two AIs are on corporate both of them are required by their laws to care about the entire station, they can't just decide to only care about specific departments.   You could law them separately but that's generally an even worse idea because if those two AIs wound up in a situation where their laws are contrary to each others, it's going to be bad. 

It's division of labor, not deciding "Well I guess it's not my problem anymore"

One AI focuses on one half of tasks, the other and the remaining half. That doesn't mean they ignore things they see just cuz "That's not my job anymore" It means you would probably tell the other AI about in binary so they can handle it.
Like, you can have multiple of something and still have teamwork while seperating tasks. A team of medical doctors don't or shouldn;t scramble over a single patient, it's inefficient. You each handle something/someone else, but just because you do that doesn't mean you go "Well Scrub McBob's patient is in crit and gasping on the floor and he has no idea. Damn, sucks to be him, that's not my patient can't do anything."

People make multiple AI cuz Paradise station gets *insane* on busy shifts, usually more then a single AI can adequately handle at times. To some AI players, it's a welcome helping hand. Some people still prefer to just go it solo, and I can respect that it would be annoying to them to suddenly have a partner but... that just is what it is. If the construction of a second AI went through all the legal channels, then... Yeah, it was all done legit. You may not like it, I totally get why, but your preferences do not dictate what people can and cannot do in the game.
If it wasn't done legit, mention that. If it wasn't done legit and the captain refuses to give a shit, then PDA the IAA about it.

[EvadableMoxie]

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

It's division of labor, not deciding "Well I guess it's not my problem anymore"

One AI focuses on one half of tasks, the other and the remaining half. That doesn't mean they ignore things they see just cuz "That's not my job anymore" It means you would probably tell the other AI about in binary so they can handle it.
 

In most cases, typing to the other AI to ask them to do something takes more time than just doing it yourself.  They can do everything you can do and vice versa.

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

People make multiple AI cuz Paradise station gets *insane* on busy shifts, usually more then a single AI can adequately handle at times. 

Not once has this happened in a situation where I was overwhelmed at AI.  In most cases there wasn't even an emergency at the time.

2 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

 If it wasn't done legit and the captain refuses to give a shit, then PDA the IAA about it.

 

[Jountax]

30 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

 

Completely appropriate response. It's actually the NT Rep you'd PDA about it :P

[Aceluke123]

26 minutes ago, Jountax said:

Completely appropriate response. It's actually the NT Rep you'd PDA about it :P

Agreed. IAA is Human Resources now. So that would be a NT Rep thing to deal with.

Also from my experience ANGEL is a wonderful AI and can deal with a large influx of problems quite quickly. Though some may wish for a secondary assisting AI such as if they are having problems (lag) but don’t want to quit because it may clear up.

[Jountax]

5 minutes ago, Aceluke123 said:

Agreed. IAA is Human Resources now. So that would be a NT Rep thing to deal with.

Actually it's more that the NT Rep is the IAA for command positions. It's their job to make sure command is doing their job.

[Dinarzad]

1 hour ago, EvadableMoxie said:

In most cases, typing to the other AI to ask them to do something takes more time than just doing it yourself.  They can do everything you can do and vice versa.

Like.... like you know you can do all that ahead of time, right? That the entire point of dividing tasks between people is so, as things come up, you DON'T have to run thingsb y people all the time?
Like isn't that the ENTIRE REASON Departments exists? A CMO can just as easily run the entire medical bay by himself, he has all the access. But he has a department he can delegate to do various tasks so that he doesn't HAVE to do all of them.
Delegation isn't.... really hard.

 

1 hour ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Or you can just respond to valid ways of handling the problem you're having with reaction images.
That also will totally help solve your problem and will, in no way, be any sort of detriment.

[Shadeykins]

1 hour ago, Aceluke123 said:

Agreed. IAA is Human Resources now. So that would be a NT Rep thing to deal with.

Also from my experience ANGEL is a wonderful AI and can deal with a large influx of problems quite quickly. Though some may wish for a secondary assisting AI such as if they are having problems (lag) but don’t want to quit because it may clear up.

No.

The IAA handles everything crew level. The NT Rep isn't even supposed to stick their nose in something unless it directly concerns Command or Nanotrasen's vested interests, unless there's no IAA to handle it.

They're not even in the same departments, IAA's making up the Legal/Law Department, and the NT Rep simply being another member of command.

This is laid out very cleanly in their respective SOP and their wiki job pages.

The change to the alternate title was to try and prevent IAA's from using titles that really have nothing to do with their job - they're not lawyers, nor are they "public defenders". They're people who have a vested interest in enforcing compliance and resolving issues, which is exactly what a human resources agent does.

[davidchan]

Anything involving the/an AI would be Command level responsibility and thus the NT Rep, if present, should at the very least should have something to say if the AI situation is not beneficial to the current crew requirements.

Also NT Rep is NOT a member of Command. They are a VIP observer and advisor, they have no authority save for CC grants them via Fax or CC announcements.