Remove IPC Damage Weaknesses, or...

[TrainTN]

10 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

Off the top of my head the primary one is EMP's don't kill - they do some damage and stun them for a long enough time where they can be easily killed, but it's not outright death.

I remember hearing that an IPC can survive an EMP if at the very edge of it. I don't know if it's possible in the code, but if I could, I'd make it so that EMPs only kill at direct close range, and anything beyond that just stuns/knocks out and inflicts tons of burn damage. So you either have to use an EMP grenade, or take the risk of getting right up in your target's face to one-shot them. But again, I don't know if that kind of thing would be possible to code, if it would require changing how all EMPs operate, etc.

[Jountax]

Are IPCs immune to surgical pain fail chances? If not I feel they really should be and that that is more of an oversight to be fixed than a buff to be applied. People have been pointing out that you can fix an IPC on any old random table, which is still technically true, but in ghetto surgery environments AND with no anesthesia fail chances those are some long odds for every step.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Jountax

[TrainTN]

Just now, Jountax said:

Are IPCs immune to surgical pain fail chances? If not I feel they really should be and that that is more of an oversight to be fixed than a buff to be applied. People have been pointing out that you can fix an IPC on any old random table, which is still technically true, but in ghetto surgery environments AND with surgery fail chances those are some long odds for every step.

I heard they're not immune, mostly from comical stories of somehow failing the initial step of loosening their panel with a screwdriver. I would agree that they should have no pain fail chance at all.

[Jountax]

Just now, TrainTN said:

I heard they're not immune, mostly from comical stories of somehow failing the initial step of loosening their panel with a screwdriver. I would agree that they should have no pain fail chance at all.

Think I'll poke around the code later, then. Need something to distract me from the tweak to kidans I've been failing to get to work for a bit.

[TrainTN]

6 minutes ago, Jountax said:

Think I'll poke around the code later, then. Need something to distract me from the tweak to kidans I've been failing to get to work for a bit.

Granted, it might have had something to do with usual ghetto surgery penalties, not pain penalties. It's difficult to deal with how random those can be, but still worth a check, I say. And good luck with the kidan tweaks too, I hope those work out well eventually.

[Ziiro]

My changes were as follows:

* EMPs stun them for roughly 10-15 seconds (I forget the exact number) first and foremost. It applies about 40 damage total, I think. 20% chance rolled on each limb to detach (you could lose none, you could lose all). I added a bunch of effects tied to the organs, as well: battery dumps their nutrition value, ears makes them deaf, jitter and dizzy. Voicebox stutters . THEY ALSO SCREAM WHEN EMP'D.

Reasoning: traitors can kill IPCs just as easily, it's just louder and slower. (You can EMP them and then toolbox them to death before the stun wears off). However, it's not a death sentence if an EMP happens as a workplace hazard. It also gives you a very nice nonlethal control method when dealing with antag IPCs. Also all the emp effects for organs are tied to the organs themselves, so you would get these if you somehow put them in an organic.

* No ultralube/meth equivalent

Reason: it's super unnecessary.  You can't have it both ways: Chems should be like viruses. No bad, no good.

* Take huge burn damage in general. Very weak to temperature in general. Will die before they can roll themselves out of caught on fire.

Reason: they're machines. Machines break very easily when overheating. Wires melt. Components pop.

* Limbs are very easily severed by anything sharp with enough force. E-sword de-limbs on the first or second hit. Brute can knock them off as well, but it requires hitting the limbs damage cap

Reason: it just makes sense as a trade-off for below.

* Can reattach broken limbs by themselves without a table.

Reason: i always found it arbitrary that an IPC can't plug it's own limbs in. If you wish to make a more self sufficient crew member (albeit one that has a different threshold for helplessness) this is how you do it.

* Takes 50% more damage from electrocution

Reason: again. Sensitive electronics and internal systems

* They can inject plasma or stable plasma for nutrition

Reason: putting an IPC in perma kills them slowly. This is mostly to fix that, but also allow IPCs a little less reliant on the power grid. Not that these are easily accessible chems, but still.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Ziiro

[Tayswift]

@Ziiro at least port your EMP and limb changes over, pretty please?? ?

[EvadableMoxie]

There is failure chance on IPCs surgery based on the surface you're doing the surgey on.  There's no failure chance for being awake since they don't feel pain.

That said, unlike organic surgery where failures can damage and even in some causes internal bleeding, failure on an IPC have no penalties beyond the wasted time. Despite the scary messages, failed IPC surgery steps never cause damage. 

 

As for roboticists being newbies, I've noticed the wiki considers roboticist as an "Easy" difficulty job.  I'm not sure I agree with that, I'd put it at medium along with MD.  Easy puts it on par with Janitors and cooks, which are roles that are far less likely to negatively impact someone's round by having the person doing it being incompetent.

Edited January 21, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[Streaky Haddock]

Well, you say the slips never cause damage, but what about the times when the surgery proc doesn't trigger, and you end up beating them in the head with your welding tool/crowbar?

[ZN23X]

Surgery still takes far longer as an organic. Busy round, waiting anywhere from 5-15 min for a surgery room to open, hooked to an IV, most you can do is slowly limp around cuz you are in so much pain. Surgeries on multiple sections of the body for broken bones, IB,and damaged organs. Debating whether it's a better option to just remove the IV, die, and wait for the cloning line. Ghetto surgery? Less people know that than IPC surgery, and it requires uncommon tools (knife, hatchet, unless you wanna risk the 75% fail chance of using glass instead of a knife) and has a greater failure chance on a non surgery table than even IPC surgery has.

Really curious how many IPCs would truly be happy with a 10-15 sec stun time. I know most who hate it would say "Anything is better than what we currently have" but if that was actually implemented, I'm pretty sure the majority of IPCs who hate EMP still would.

I do like the idea of them being able to pop thier own limbs back on. I Imagine from an IC perspective, removing and popping a limb back on would be as familiar to an IPC as going to the bathroom is for an organic.

Edited January 22, 2018 by ZN23X

[Shadeykins]

13 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Surgery still takes far longer as an organic. Busy round, waiting anywhere from 5-15 min for a surgery room to open, hooked to an IV, most you can do is slowly limp around cuz you are in so much pain. Surgeries on multiple sections of the body for broken bones, IB,and damaged organs. Debating whether it's a better option to just remove the IV, die, and wait for the cloning line. Ghetto surgery? Less people know that than IPC surgery, and it requires uncommon tools (knife, hatchet, unless you wanna risk the 75% fail chance of using glass instead of a knife) and has a greater failure chance on a non surgery table than even IPC surgery has.

Really curious how many IPCs would truly be happy with a 10-15 sec stun time. I know most who hate it would say "Anything is better than what we currently have" but if that was actually implemented, I'm pretty sure the majority of IPCs who currently hate EMP still would.

I do like the idea of them being able to pop thier own limbs back on. I Imagine from an IC perspective, removing and popping a limb back on would be as familiar to an IPC as going to the bathroom is for an organic.

I disagree vehemently.

A surgery for an IPC that has been EMP'd is six surgeries for just basic repairs, another one for posibrain damage, another to replace the arm charger implant, and two more to replace the microbattery/optics. You need access to a mech fabricator, nanopaste, chemistry, etc.

That's 10 surgeries, every single time an IPC gets EMP'd.

This is akin to giving people free access to a mobile emagged recycler for the cost of 2TC. It uberfucks IPCs, is untraceable, works through walls, and takes about 3 stacks of cable coil along with a competent roboticist to repair (a job that was never balanced to have room/time for repairing IPCs at that). If there's a revenant in the round, most IPC players I know of just stop playing altogether - there's just absolutely no point in being revived.

For contrast even a severely shot-up organic requires at most 4-5 surgeries and an IV.

Usually one for IB, and the organ manip surgery also fixes broken bones (which reduces the number of surgeries) which is typically done on the head/chest.

Also, cloning is an option - it's never an option for an IPC. Organics can also be kept alive and in the round via the use of chems - if an IPC needs surgery, they're probably dead and out of the round, incapable of interacting with anyone ICly.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Shadeykins

[EvadableMoxie]

3 hours ago, Streaky Haddock said:

Well, you say the slips never cause damage, but what about the times when the surgery proc doesn't trigger, and you end up beating them in the head with your welding tool/crowbar?

That's not based on failure chance, it's a bug, and it happens with organic surgery as well. Except with organic surgery it's far worse because it can cause bleeding or broken bones.

[Shadeykins]

16 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

That's not based on failure chance, it's a bug, and it happens with organic surgery as well. Except with organic surgery it's far worse because it can cause bleeding or broken bones.

No, it's based on failure chance.

If your attempt at surgery fails at initializing the surgery to begin with, you end up clubbing the person with the implement.

[EvadableMoxie]

1 minute ago, Shadeykins said:

No, it's based on failure chance.

If your attempt at surgery fails at initializing the surgery to begin with, you end up clubbing the person with the implement.

It's a bug. It happens to borgs, and borgs can't fail surgery steps. 

[Shadeykins]

Just now, EvadableMoxie said:

It's a bug. It happens to borgs, and borgs can't fail surgery steps. 

Everyone can fail surgery steps - there's an inherent failure chance if no anesthetic is being used.

[EvadableMoxie]

2 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

Everyone can fail surgery steps - there's an inherent failure chance if no anesthetic is being used.

Borgs never fail surgery steps in any situation.  Go play a medical Borg and test. You won't fail any surgery steps. 

The bug where you can't start surgery is just that, a bug.  Otherwise what you're saying is there is a failure chance on bringing up a menu which makes absolutely no sense. The initial incision rightly has a failure chance, before you get to that point you're just selecting the surgery type from a menu. That shouldn't have a chance to fail, you aren't actually doing anything. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[Shadeykins]

Bringing up the menu has always had a chance to fail.

This existed even prior to surgery having an anesthetic failure chance, it was never a bug and didn't occur with scalpels on proper op-tables.

It only ever existed in "ghetto" surgery or on improper surfaces, and now exists to some extent due to anesthetic risk chances.

[EvadableMoxie]

So you're saying that a doctor looks at a patient and thinks about what surgery they're going to do, and sometimes makes a mistake doing that and stabs them with a scalpel?

It's bug. It existed before anesthetic failure chance because it has nothing to do with anesthetic, it has to do with the game recognizing that you're trying to start a surgery.  The bug occurs when you try to do surgery on anything other than a surgery table. It'll never happen on a surgical table even on an awake patient with a ghetto implement. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[Shadeykins]

4 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

So you're saying that a doctor looks at a patient and thinks about what surgery they're going to do, and sometimes makes a mistake doing that and stabs them with a scalpel?

It's bug. It existed before anesthetic failure chance because it has nothing to do with anesthetic, it has to do with the game recognizing that you're trying to start a surgery.  The bug occurs when you try to do surgery on anything other than a surgery table. It'll never happen on a surgical table even on an awake patient with a ghetto implement. 

Starting the initial surgery has a failure chance - you're not looking at someone, you're attacking them with a scalpel/implement on help intent in order to pull up that menu.

That's not really a bug insofar as it's an oversight, and it's been around since the implementation of the surgery menu system. If you want to see it gone, I'm sure nobody will be sad to see it go - but as the system stands it makes IPC surgeries a pain due to them being incapable of receiving anesthetic.

[TrainTN]

3 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

Starting the initial surgery has a failure chance - you're not looking at someone, you're attacking them with a scalpel/implement on help intent in order to pull up that menu.

That's not really a bug insofar as it's an oversight, and it's been around since the implementation of the surgery menu system. If you want to see it gone, I'm sure nobody will be sad to see it go - but as the system stands it makes IPC surgeries a pain due to them being incapable of receiving anesthetic.

In truth, when playing Colonial Marines as a doctor, I found their menuless, freeform surgery much more practical and enjoyable. I'm not sure why this server uses the menu surgery system, as it seems like it just takes up more time by requiring additional surgeries. I'm sure there was a reasoning for it; maybe the code just doesn't exist, I'm unaware of any details.

Edited January 22, 2018 by TrainTN

[EvadableMoxie]

4 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

Starting the initial surgery has a failure chance - you're not looking at someone, you're attacking them with a scalpel/implement on help intent in order to pull up that menu.

That's not really a bug insofar as it's an oversight, and it's been around since the implementation of the surgery menu system. If you want to see it gone, I'm sure nobody will be sad to see it go - but as the system stands it makes IPC surgeries a pain due to them being incapable of receiving anesthetic.

 

It's kind of besides the point if you believe me on this or not because either way it happens to both IPCs and organics, so it's really not a factor. 

But the info I've told you is correct and easy enough to test and confirm. If it was based on failure chance there should be a chance for it to happen when you start surgery on someone who is awake using a glass shard even on a surgery table. But if you try 100 times you won't have it happen to you, because it's not at all based on failure chance. Test it if you don't believe me. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[Shadeykins]

7 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

 

It's kind of besides the point if you believe me on this or not because either way it happens to both IPCs and organics, so it's really not a factor. 

But the info I've told you is correct and easy enough to test and confirm. If it was based on failure chance there should be a chance for it to happen when you start surgery on someone who is awake using a glass shard. But there isn't, because it isn't, and it's easy to test if you don't believe me. 

Just tested it, glass always cuts into the hand but produces 100% reliable proccing of the menu.

Other surfaces it makes you attack the dude - no clue what's going on with it then, I just always assumed this was something inherent to ghetto. Prior to the introduction of surgery menus, it works exactly like this as well.

@TrainTN We used to have freeform surgery, but it was purportedly buggy and was replaced with menu surgery.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Shadeykins

[EvadableMoxie]

5 minutes ago, Shadeykins said:

Just tested it, glass always cuts into the hand but produces 100% reliable proccing of the menu.

Other surfaces it makes you attack the dude - no clue what's going on with it then, I just always assumed this was something inherent to ghetto. Prior to the introduction of surgery menus, it works exactly like this as well.

@TrainTN We used to have freeform surgery, but it was purportedly buggy and was replaced with menu surgery.

Ah, you know, I think the reason you're getting an attack and I generally don't is because there is some kind of 'safety' build into borgs. If you try to use the wrong tool on someone as a borg, you can't do it.  So a human surgeon can beat someone with a bone setter by using it in the wrong order, a borg can't. That probably is why the menu comes up without an attack for a borg, but causes an attack for an organic surgeon. 

[Streaky Haddock]

Also, not forgetting that IPCs when debrained and with their speaker set to off, can't ghost from their brain without giving their right to respawn/reconstruction. And when IPCs ARE repaired, they don't get a notification to go back in their bodies. Their bodies, which, by the way, show up as 'catatonic'. So it's entirely possible someone will bring them to life, see they're cataonic, shake their head sadly to the blueshield and then the IPC gets their shit stripped and replaced.

[Streaky Haddock]

Unlike IPCs who are hit in the chest by a hulk punch; i'm not willing to let this  bloody issue die for the sixth time.