Remove IPC Damage Weaknesses, or...

[BottomQuark]

Well quick thought:

Since I'm fine with EMP and 50% more demage they receive.

IPCs are machines, they don't feel pain. So how about, let them be able to reattach their limbs own their own. (( It will work as long as they have hands )). And make them able to perform surgery on themselves?

That would make all IPCs to be able to fix themselves preety easly as long as they have hands and tools.

I'm not sure, but the only thing IPC would need fix itself then. Would he one hand, welding tool, cables, crowbar and screwdriver.

[BottomQuark]

Not if you fix everything else first right :^)? I also don't know on what threshold limbs deattach tbh.

[Allfd]

So this is the problem with species.

Its very hard to differentiate them meaningfully without people falling into two camps.

My special snowflake needs to be the best, I play X <==> My special snowflake needs to be the best, I don't play X

IPCs are no exception,  the problem is, at the center of that scale we have the compromise position of "Everything is just reskinned humans."

 

On 1/21/2018 at 10:57 PM, Shadeykins said:

For contrast even a severely shot-up organic requires at most 4-5 surgeries and an IV.

In my perfect world, the solution to this is to make bullets embed, and lasers have the chance to damage internal organs as well.  Species with fur could have a chance of catching on fire when hit with a laser.

The alternative, is we just make IPCs more human.  We could take the starbound approach to species balancing and use the Glitch as the template.  (IPCs need to eat food to survive as they were "programmed" to behave like humans.  ICily, they don't need it, but will die without it due to thinking they need to eat.)

I think the second approach would be a pity, IPCs are unique and have unique mechanics.  Although of the two options, I see the second approach as more probable then the first.  Unique mechanics involve a ton of code snowflakes, so not only do unique mechanics come up against balance issues, they also have code issues.  Not only does everyone have to agree on the balance, but also the code.  Its way easier just to make them a subtype of human with a different skin and the ability to use *buzz and *beep.

All species being reskinned humans is not an extreme position, it is the center of the balance spectrum.  So while it  may be an unpopular position, it is the one that we are most likely to pick as a community.

[Kyet]

Saying that IPCs are underpowered is a bit... hard to believe when they're the most popular race after human (according to a suvrey I saw done awhile back).

If they were really underpowered, I suspect they wouldn't be so popular.

 

IPCs being weak to brute damage makes no sense to me. They're made of metal, and feel no pain. They should really be hardier than any organic.

There is quite simply no flesh that I know of that's better at resisting blunt trauma than metal is.

I can't think of any surface that would be better at reflecting away or radiating heat than shiny metal, either.

That said, if IPCs were to lose their vulnerability to brute/burn damage, they would need something even stronger as a weakness to compensate.

 

All species being reskinned humans is fine with me. I'd prefer each species to be more unique than that, but I'd rather have all species be reskinned humans than have species have wildly different power levels or strengths/weaknesses that make no sense.

[McRamon]

1 hour ago, tzo said:

Saying that IPCs are underpowered is a bit... hard to believe when they're the most popular race after human (according to a suvrey I saw done awhile back).

If they were really underpowered, I suspect they wouldn't be so popular.

 

IPCs being weak to brute damage makes no sense to me. They're made of metal, and feel no pain. They should really be hardier than any organic.

There is quite simply no flesh that I know of that's better at resisting blunt trauma than metal is.

I can't think of any surface that would be better at reflecting away or radiating heat than shiny metal, either.

That said, if IPCs were to lose their vulnerability to brute/burn damage, they would need something even stronger as a weakness to compensate.

 

All species being reskinned humans is fine with me. I'd prefer each species to be more unique than that, but I'd rather have all species be reskinned humans than have species have wildly different power levels or strengths/weaknesses that make no sense.

I dont think they are so metal you say they are. For a machine to be as agile as an organic being is, you probably would have to make it out of some soft synthetic material, which probably is not as good as flesh, muscles and bones are. What i really dont understand is why computers are not space proof, they dont have any blood pressure inside of their non-existatn veins. Either way, IPC are easy to destroy yet also very easy to repair. There are other factors in space which make it hard for IPC to operate normally, but that is totally not the lack of pressure. Probably making them survive space but malfunction(like blindness, "drunk" effect and hallucinations) if they dont wear space suit will make them a bit stronger, more unique and fair. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by McRamon

[Allfd]

So for the most part, insects manage to be plenty fast with a hard outer the casing.

 

Our fleshy parts just cover an internal framework or hard material with appropriate joints.  Weight is best thought of as thrust to weight ratio

Either way advanced carbon materials are way lighter and way stronger steel, we just don't have a good manufacturing process IRL.

 

Radiation seriously damages any electronics.  Biological things are actually far more resilient, in that it would take significantly longer for say a Tajaran to die then an IPC.

 

You can hardden electronics by both upping the weight such as using a few feet of lead for gamma rays, or lighter foil for alpha and beta.  But assuming you don't have room for tons of lead, your next best bet is to increase the size of your transistors.  Go from say a core i7 to looked a good solid Pentium 2.

 

But yeah I would expect IPCs to be really resiliant to shock damage (physical impact). But exceptionally vulnerable to strong magnetic fields such as emp, or any radiation.

 

EMP would probably just break them, but radiation would be more dangerous, it would not effect larger components, such as capacitors or wiring like an EMP would.  But it would destroy the nano scale transistors on any computer chips, not all at once, but slowlu, basically permenent gradual brain damage, as the posibrain begain to degrade, and the subsystems for things like motor control begain fail, a logic gate at a time.

 

What's most interesting, is that because gates are made up of many transistors, the failures would not be an overload like EMP, radiation would instead cause logic gates to begin to fail, either closed, open, or unpredictably fail in either of those two states.  This would also be unrepairable, effected components would have to be replaced.  So existentially, is an IPC software or hardware?  Is it the posibrain, or does it live in storage somehow separate?

 

Written on a phone, waiting for a show to start, sorry.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Allfd

[Pennwick]

I hope this goes somewhere. I've stopped playing myself but one thing that I noticed was that IPC always took more damage than I expected. True they're advertised to take 50% more brute and burn but it always seemed more. After a little bit of a code dive it actually seems that they take 65% more brute and burn. x2.5 from species and only x.66 for robo limbs. The math in the comments are wrong.

Also here are some hard numbers for EMPs. They come in two flavors severity 1 and severity 2.  Revenant Emps are always severity 1 no matter your distance. Other sources are typically 1 near the center and 2 futher out. For example an implant has a range of 3 and 5.

Severity 2 emps do 7 damage * 2.5 *.66 to every limb, so 11.5 to everything, roughly 120 damage. A severity 1 will do 20 times the multipliers. So 33 each limb for a total of over 300 damage. Of course some of your limbs will be lost. Not 100% on how that works but its easy to see why a second emp will almost always leave the IPC a pile of parts as robotic limbs always fall off when they reach their damage cap.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Pennwick
Added math on EMP

[Dinarzad]

10 hours ago, Allfd said:

All species being reskinned humans is not an extreme position, it is the center of the balance spectrum.  So while it  may be an unpopular position, it is the one that we are most likely to pick as a community.

I wanna put this out there right now, that if this is the direction Paradise goes, I will be the first one out the door.

To clarify, I'm not saying this as some kind of threat to prevent admins from going that direction, I'm an on again, off again player, me leaving is gonna cause no problems.
But I AM saying is so that staff members know that it very much is an extreme position to some.  The entire appeal to paradise from my side as well as others, is that the various alien races, are actually alien in some regard. They don't play identically to a human, because that's dumb. There's no reason a robot should be identical to a human, nor why a living space bird cyborg should be identical to a bipedal cat, and so on.
That is, to me, the main draw. It's what helps make things unique and while it does cause balance issues, also helps encourage immersion because you're not just acting like "Oh*beep boo;* no, the EMP is *beep boop* hurting me!"  You are actually, as a player, kind of scared of EMPs because they'll ACTUALLY destroy your hopes and dreams as an IPC/Cyborg/etc.

So I put this out there here and now, you'll lose players if you take that route. If you still feel that's the best path and this is what staff/community agree is best for the server, hey, I can respect that, you gotta do what you think is the right move, and I sure hell don't know what is anymore then anyone else does. But you should be prepared to alienate a few people in the act.

[Birdtalon]

12 hours ago, tzo said:

Saying that IPCs are underpowered is a bit... hard to believe when they're the most popular race after human (according to a suvrey I saw done awhile back).

If they were really underpowered, I suspect they wouldn't be so popular.

Wholeheartedly agree with @tzo here.

I think maybe the focus should be on some of the races which are completely underplayed. Kidan, Skrell, Drask and Diona spring to mind. Why are we constantly talking about how bad IPCs are when they're the second most popular race in the game?

[BottomQuark]

13 hours ago, tzo said:

Saying that IPCs are underpowered is a bit... hard to believe when they're the most popular race after human (according to a suvrey I saw done awhile back).

I don't know the exact numbers but I'll risk it.
Most people (including me) play X race bcs they like their style/RP, not for mechanic. I myself used to play IPC bcs they are robots! C'mon that's so cool! Even if they get fucked by EMP and by almost everything, they are still cool to play just bcs you can beep and boop and just act like a robot. ((and I am playing kidan right now that keep in mind is not "mechanically superior" race))

That said, I don't think IPCs need rework right now, tho I'd love to see them beeing able to reattach their own limbs and maybe get only burn dmg in vacuum. I don't see why their metal would get damaged, and you know, space = almost no matter = overheating.

[ZN23X]

27 minutes ago, BottomQuark said:

maybe get only burn dmg in vacuum. I don't see why their metal would get damaged, and you know, space = almost no matter = overheating.

I've always viewed the brute damage in space as, they have liquids within thier body, whether its coolant or oil or whatever, and those liquids react with a cold vacuum in a fashion that causes damage to the components containing those liquids and the plating containing those components.

I know I'm in the minority here but, I'm fine with my IPC as they are. I think the reason there is so much talk about them being revamped is BECAUSE they are the second most popular race,  hence more voices. I agree if we felt like fixing any races it should be the ones people barely play.

I primarily play a human and an IPC. I experience the benefits and detriments of both. I don't consider one superior to the other. I honestly believe people who ONLY play IPC lose sight of the benefits of being one and focus on the negative aspects far too much. I'm not gonna repeat all of them cuz I've said em too many times. Ee get a new post like this every month or two.

"This is the song that never ends..."

Edited September 14, 2018 by ZN23X

[BottomQuark]

1 minute ago, ZN23X said:

I've always viewed the brute damage in space as, they have liquids within thier body, whether its coolant or oil or whatever, and those liquids react with a cold vacuum in a fashion that causes damage to the components containing those liquids and the plating containing those components.

Alright, I'm convinced :^)

3 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

I know I'm in the minority here but, I'm fine with my IPC as they are. I think the reason there is so much talk about them being revamped is BECAUSE they are the second most popular race,  hence more voices. I agree if we felt like fixing any races it should be the ones people barely play.

Besides that, there always will be better races and worse races. ALWAYS. The only way to make everyone even, is to literally make all species just reskinned human, and I'd hate that, as much as I hate not beeing able to wear glasses as kidan, it taught me not to rely on secHUD for example, and I don't really feel a need to wear them now.
From one side it makes game harder, from the other side, I like challange :^).

But back to the topic, I don't think IPC needs rework right now, minor improvements would be nice, as I said:

38 minutes ago, BottomQuark said:

I'd love to see them beeing able to reattach their own limbs

When I think about it now, that wouldn't be that minor improvement

[ZN23X]

The only thing I'd personally like to see is making robotics so it isn't so isolated. Make it more accessible like Medbay (make the recharge area a "lobby" that is accessible to the public?) It really sucks when you have a problem only robotics can fix and you go there only to find the shutters down and have to beg for assistance on comms, being ignored half the time and not knowing if there is anyone even working in robotics or if they are dead/fucking off. As my human I can at least walk through Deadbay and visibly see there is nobody there to help me. Which makes me feel less alone than standing outside robotics.

Edited September 14, 2018 by ZN23X

[EvadableMoxie]

More people playing a race doesn't make the race stronger, so saying they can't be under-powered because they're popular is just objectively false.

The fact is nothing really matters except for EMP weakness. EMP weakness is such a massive downside that it's not even hyperbole to say that every IPC alive on the station is only alive because everyone else is allowing them to be.  The most robust SS13 player in the universe playing an IPC is trivial to kill. 

 

 

[Fursamie]

As Quark and Moxie said,

1: Because a race/species is played more often than, for example, plasmaman doesn't mean it's downsides are negated because of that.

2: Following the above, multiple people and myself included play their IPC character for roleplay. Sure it'd be great to roll changeling every so often or not have your fragile toaster ass obliterated by a wooden bat, but apparently rp & aesthetic > mechanics on paradise.

To add to the topic in general, it isn't ever stated via the wiki or lore but it's more than likely that IPCs are cheaply made. Nanotrasen roundstart gets 1 Borg which is

1. Better than an IPC in terms of taking damage
2. Space proof
3. With every module comes with a set of tools that will help the Borg do their job just as well if not better than their organic counterparts.

But with this much power by default means there has to be some sort of way to control such a powerful machines, so they'd be assigned NT approven lawsets roundstart. That's(probably idk)why  they're not free to toss the closest assistant out an airlock whenever they want. Let's assume this is common knowledge to most robotic manufacturing companies like masterrace Ward takashi or virgin zeng hu - they use cheaply made and easily accessible materials (dubbed Gamma Xtron from here on out) to make unslaved, unlawed, sentient and sapient robots.

 

[ZN23X]

41 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

More people playing a race doesn't make the race stronger, so saying they can't be under-powered because they're popular is just objectively false.

We werent saying being popular makes them stronger, we were saying maybe we should focus on making improvements to less popular races to make them more appealing instead of making a race that is already popular more appealing.

Also, players who get pissed about dying will continue to do so. You could nerf EMP, you could literally remove it, these players will move onto the next unfair thing that they want fixed. I've died alot to both EMP and everything else you can think of. After a while it all feels the same. Everyone dies frequently and unfairly. Its part of the game.

Edited September 14, 2018 by ZN23X

[Dinarzad]

12 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

We werent saying being popular makes them stronger, we were saying maybe we should focus on making improvements to less popular races to make them more appealing instead of making a race that is already popular more appealing.

IPC currently are one of, if not the, most unique of the karma races. They have the most day to day differences in their mechanics, using APCs/Cyborg rechargers for 'food', the utterly different way they have to heal themselves, feeling no pain, no breathing, such on an such forth.  This is mostly what draws people to them, the very different playing experience and RP that they provide over being human or most the other organic races.

To give other lesser played races a similar treatment is something I absolutely whole-heartedly agree, on, the more of those kinds of differences we can introduce to races the better I'd feel. I'd LOVE have weird shit with slime people that emphasizes they ARE made of sentient goo, or to emphasize the insect nature of the Kidan, use of pheromones or something. Not even necessarily BUFFS, just weird unique interactions.  You'd be surprised how much more I wanted to play Kidan when they got the click-clack sound emotes.

IPCs suffer horrible downsides from EMOPs and yet tons of people still play them because of those unique interactions and systems. Kidan, as an example, however, don't really have much of interest to make up for their big bug eyes. Yeah they have the armor, but that's very passive, there's little there that makes them FEEL different, you instead just feel like a human who can't wear goggles. That's the problem, as designing systems like that for so many species is going to be hard, but I think it's the best thing. People are a lot more willing to deal with even intense negatives, so long as the final result is different and provides a unique perspective.

Personal opinion would be to, either among staff members or the community as a whole, open threads for the current race being looked at and put forth ideas that would make sense for the creature, ignore balance and work backwards from there.
Like Grey having telekinesis. Makes sense. As ideas pile up, so there's a pool to work from, then administration can sort out via internal discussion of "I mean this makes sense and WOULD be cool, but that's broken af"

Because ultimately, at the end of the day, this has been a very talked about subject for a long time, and the end call is made with the people coding those changes and the people approving them.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Dinarzad

[ZN23X]

Imagine if Greys were as popular as IPC?

"Nerf water. Remove water"

Before someone says it, I'm aware water cannot kill you through walls. Its also infinitely more common and not questionable to have in your posession in any context.

Edited September 14, 2018 by ZN23X

[WingedYordle]

Just give them bread and let them burn toast

[EvadableMoxie]

5 hours ago, ZN23X said:

Imagine if Greys were as popular as IPC?

"Nerf water. Remove water"

Before someone says it, I'm aware water cannot kill you through walls. Its also infinitely more common and not questionable to have in your posession in any context.

I'm not sure if you're trying to actually make this argument that people are only complaining about EMPs because IPCs are popular.  If you aren't, I'm not sure why you brought it up, and if you are, well you sort of already argued against it yourself but...

While water is clearly easier to get and make than an EMP it's also far less effective.  It being less effective is a lot more important than how easy it is to get.  You spawn with an oxygen tank in your box which can be used to kill someone.  Since you spawn with it, it's infinitely easy to acquire.  This has not lead to a string of emergency oxygen tank murders. Likewise, while grays do occasionally die to fire extinguishers it's fairly rare because the best way to kill a gray is basically the same way you kill anything else: Stun, cuff, kill. If a racial weakness doesn't make it easier to kill that race with their weakness than it does to kill them by stunning, then really it isn't particularly relevant because it's only being done by someone choosing not to use the optimal route anyway.

A simple exercise: You have to fight an enemy 1 v 1, and you have to pick either a taser or an item to exploit their racial weakness.  The enemy always has a taser. For the sake of this exercise, you're trying to win.  No arguing you'd pick the weaker weapon for a more interesting fight, we're talking mechanical strengths and weaknesses here.

Slime person: A syringe gun with Frost Oil or a Taser?

Kiden: Bug Spray or a taser?

Diona: Herbicide spray or a taser?

Gray: Fire extinguisher or a taser?

IPC: EMP grenade or a taser?

In 4 out of 5 of those situations if you took the racial weakness you'd be at a disadvantage against an enemy with a taser. Against the IPC you just automatically win. That's the difference we're talking about here. It's not a subtle difference, it's pretty extreme. The racial weaknesses of other races aren't anywhere even close to what the weakness to EMPs is for IPCs. 

Racial weaknesses of other races are simply not comparable to IPC EMP weakness.  EMP weakness is on a whole other level.

 

[Ziiro]

On 9/13/2018 at 3:15 PM, Allfd said:

All species being reskinned humans is not an extreme position, it is the center of the balance spectrum.  So while it  may be an unpopular position, it is the one that we are most likely to pick as a community.

For maximum balance and gameplay, rebase to /tg/ with modularization and then just do this. I'm dead serious. Or rebase to citadel (deleting the ERP mechanics) because they have all the appearance options you could ever want, anyway.

The balance conundrum will never be solved. Specifically with something as esoteric as IPCs. The variables from moment to moment are too many. While in one round an IPC fighting a blob may prove to be simply The Best, in another they will be Ion rifled by the first nuke op.

The complexities of balancing them aside, there's also public opinion and maintainer opinion to try to deal with. Which will never reach consensus. Plus the code for them is just a mess.

Edited September 14, 2018 by Ziiro

[Allfd]

So for clarity, I don't actually think all species should just be reskinned humans... That feels like something one does because the game is about clickly PVP, which personally does not appeal to me, regardless of how true it may or may not be.

I posted what I did as more of a "Be careful what you wish for."  As like water or electricity, code changes take the path of least resistance. 

[SkeletalElite]

I dont think species should be reskinned humans. The fun part of being a different species is that they play a little differently.

[Allfd]

22 hours ago, SkeletalElite said:

I dont think species should be reskinned humans. The fun part of being a different species is that they play a little differently.

Everytime we try to make changes, they end up not sticking.  Its kinda exhausting.   We have near zero ability to make even the smallest change, that requires a massive focus of effort and will.

Then it is at continued risk for just getting removed, its just not worth it.  The species used to be far more distinct then they are now, making everything re-skinned humans has been a process that has been occurring for 3-4 years now.   I would say, over balance concerns.  It may not be a planned change, but a number of things likely came together to have the change occur anyways.

[Rurik]

Well since it seems this thread has been revived, Ill guess I'll state what I've stated before. 

IPC's are a in a good position when it comes to roleplay and feeling different from, say, a human. I'd argue that more people play IPC because it actually feels alien, not because it is strong. But, that is just conjecture, really. When it comes down to it, IPC's only have three issues.

• In sec/command roles, a IPC is easy pickings, and is seen as a loot pinata for obvious reasons. For this reason, any IPC's in this role that don't partner with other species will likely be killed without any fighting chance against a enemy with a EMP. Sticking close with other sec/crew members does help remedy this a bit, but still, it is a liability to be in a combat role as a IPC. I personally see this part of the races mechanics, and that its not meant to be played in combat roles without support, but that's just me.
• IPC's that are targets to enemy agents are very easy to kill, as long as they can find you. There is little you can do to defend yourself, if anything, assuming they use a EMP. Even if they didn't, the brute weakness will still put you at a considerable disadvantage. Its pretty much a free objective if you can isolate them.
• Finally, the EMP range (in this case I am talking about agents 2 tc nades they get) tend to be so large that killing an civi IPC, unrelated to the engagement, is quite common. An agent could use a nade to keep themselves from being tazed in a sec chase, and if a IPC happened to be in that area, they would be instantly killed.

With the last point I made, there was a PR a while back to fix it. It was meant to make the IPC's take heavy damage from a EMP, and be stunned for a decent while (half a min iirc) instead of instant death. That would of solved the issue of unwanted collateral deaths, while still making sure they are easy to kill if they are your target or your pursuer (sec). Sadly, it was shot down on the basis of being a buff to IPC, but really it was anything but. I can't speak for others, but if I knew I wouldn't kill some random IPC in the hallway I didn't see every time I prime a EMP nade, I would use it far more often.