Make team based antags have a server time minimum (like certain job roles)

[pootlovato708]

Nothing is more annoying when you are a cultist and the rest of your allies dont know how the tome works or that you should use the first talisman for a tome in the first place. Or that in the top left corner is the secret speech or that other people can hear you whispering to yourself. It just really bothers me. It kind of ruins the whole round because i feel like there is no way we can win. (i also think this should apply to things like changelings, but not to Nuke ops because they have an actual leader they have to listen too and its more self explanatory, being its a shoot practically everyone situation.)

[Kyet]

They already do.

You can read the settings here: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/blob/8ef41c45f6bd1ab804b2f37f47197e330d7cdbb5/code/game/jobs/job_exp.dm

For example, "ROLE_CULTIST = 10" means that being a cultist requires 10 hours of playtime.

All the team-based antag roles require 10+ hours of playtime.

Partner-based antag roles (like guardian) require 5+ hours of playtime.

Solo antag roles (like traitor) require 3+ hours of playtime.

 

I set all this up specifically so that we were more likely to get competent players in antag roles that require teamwork.

[pootlovato708]

21 minutes ago, tzo said:

They already do.

You can read the settings here: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/blob/8ef41c45f6bd1ab804b2f37f47197e330d7cdbb5/code/game/jobs/job_exp.dm

For example, "ROLE_CULTIST = 10" means that being a cultist requires 10 hours of playtime.

All the team-based antag roles require 10+ hours of playtime.

Partner-based antag roles (like guardian) require 5+ hours of playtime.

Solo antag roles (like traitor) require 3+ hours of playtime.

 

I set all this up specifically so that we were more likely to get competent players in antag roles that require teamwork.

Thats annoying then that i get a team full of incompetent people. Kek. Oh well what can i do. (Rhetorical question)

[Kyet]

 

5 minutes ago, pootlovato708 said:

Oh well what can i do.

I'm going to answer anyway, because lots of people ask this question, and it deserves an answer.

Ideas:

1. Accept that competence comes with time, and as there will always be players who are new to the role, there will always be some incompetence. It is unavoidable, and actually a sign that the server is healthy (because we're still attracting new players).
2. Help the more skilled players teach the less skilled, by, as a nuke op at round start, asking around about peoples' skill levels, and encouraging the idea that the most experienced operative takes team lead. Further, make a point to TELL new operatives how to do things, not just assume they know. I've lost count of the number of times that new operatives scream about their jetpack not working - but NOBODY tells them how to use it correctly.
3. If all else fails, select strategies that minimize the impact of incompetence. For example, encourage newer operatives to take items like eshields and shielded suits, which make them last longer in a fight even if they're not robust. Encourage the team to stick together. Have a medic to heal those that inevitably get injured. Rehearse the plan on the ship before you actually try doing it. Etc.

Edited February 18, 2018 by tzo

[pootlovato708]

10 minutes ago, tzo said:

 

I'm going to answer anyway, because lots of people ask this question, and it deserves an answer.

Ideas:

1. Accept that competence comes with time, and as there will always be players who are new to the role, there will always be some incompetence. It is unavoidable, and actually a sign that the server is healthy (because we're still attracting new players).
2. Help the more skilled players teach the less skilled, by, as a nuke op at round start, asking around about peoples' skill levels, and encouraging the idea that the most experienced operative takes team lead. Further, make a point to TELL new operatives how to do things, not just assume they know. I've lost count of the number of times that new operatives scream about their jetpack not working - but NOBODY tells them how to use it correctly.
3. If all else fails, select strategies that minimize the impact of incompetence. For example, encourage newer operatives to take items like eshields and shielded suits, which make them last longer in a fight even if they're not robust. Encourage the team to stick together. Have a medic to heal those that inevitably get injured. Rehearse the plan on the ship before you actually try doing it. Etc.

Haha

[Pckables]

I'll add in my 2 cents and say that even if one has 100 hours on the server and read the wiki extensively (which is currently outdated anyways), you're still going to flounder the first time you play an antag.
There is no substitute for direct experience, there are a lot of different aspects to take in depending on your role, the current state of the round, and who are your allies. It's always a lot to take in.
Not to mention the biggest aspect: Getting caught. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't want to get caught and have my first experience as a specific antag stopped early before I can get a good grasp of it, which leads to more passive play.

It's difficult, but you gotta find out which of your allies are new, teach them, know you'll probably need to rescue them at some point, and give em' a kick in the butt if they're hesitant. Experience is the best teacher.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Pckables

[necaladun]

The truly robust teach others to be more robust. If you can't teach others, then you're not really that robust.

 

 

[ZN23X]

I have almost 800 hours on the server and still don't know how to be a cultist cuz nobody who has ever converted me takes the time to show me. How many hours you want exactly?

Ive been on about 20 nukie teams and havent blown the station up once. Its always a mixed bag. Work with what you are given.Thats how it is in any department and any role in this game.

We all sometimes die and have our rounds ended unfairly. It happens to everyone from time to time. Its the nature of this game. Learn to accept that and you'll have a much better time playing. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by ZN23X

[JWaffles]

7 hours ago, necaladun said:

The truly robust teach others to be more robust. If you can't teach others, then you're not really that robust.

 

 

That's god damn right. Remember friends, true robustness bends the universe's rules. Divided, it multiplicates. If you cannot lend a hand to your smaller brethren, the higher secrets will remain evasive to you and what you already hold in hands shall crumble to dust.

You're robust for others, not for yourself. A true warrior never strays from the path.

 

6 hours ago, ZN23X said:

I have almost 800 hours on the server and still don't know how to be a cultist cuz nobody who has ever converted me takes the time to show me. How many hours you want exactly?

Ive been on about 20 nukie teams and havent blown the station up once. Its always a mixed bag. Work with what you are given.Thats how it is in any department and any role in this game.

We all sometimes die and have our rounds ended unfairly. It happens to everyone from time to time. Its the nature of this game. Learn to accept that and you'll have a much better time playing. 

The wiki article and careful experimentation is more than enough to attain highly above average proficiency. If you only sacrifice your time to think instead of waiting for somebody to explain it to you (anyway, why would you prefer a chaotic sermon about culting from a random player instead of a nicely formatted and thought out wiki article?), you'll get there quickly.

I believe one round is enough to turn somebody from a weight into a helpful cultie. For many reasons SS13 is a game which you need to actively learn - if you remain passive, playing hundreds of hours won't teach you anything. It is your duty to take care of yourself. Other players guiding you is, obviously, a beautiful thing, but it's your obligation to be smart about it, and you're much better learning the basics on wiki anyway.

 

Given that, I'd be pretty glad if at the very start of the round everybody received an information how many cult rounds (or minutes?) the other parties have played. The same would apply to conversions. It would make much easier to know who you need to take care of.

Edited February 18, 2018 by JWaffles

[necaladun]

1 hour ago, JWaffles said:

Given that, I'd be pretty glad if at the very start of the round everybody received an information how many cult rounds (or minutes?) the other parties have played. The same would apply to conversions. It would make much easier to know who you need to take care of.

We've considered a few things like that, but the major worries we had were with elitism and it causing problems for people being treated poorly due to low playtime, and people with high playtime acting as if they're in charge/the boss/etc (esp for nukies), when playtime =/= skill. 

[Pawneax]

3 hours ago, JWaffles said:

(anyway, why would you prefer a chaotic sermon about culting from a random player instead of a nicely formatted and thought out wiki article?)

I actually think that'd be kind of fun to experience IC but that's just me..

[JWaffles]

8 hours ago, Pawneax said:

I actually think that'd be kind of fun to experience IC but that's just me..

Trust me that for many reasons (such as SS13's fucked chat and chaotic display) guiding more than one player at once (or even just the one, if they are really new) it isn't that fun. At least for me. It would be, if the game was less chaotic. You speak "Look, we may use this rune to teleport stuff above it. Just touch it." and you're never fucking sure if they actually got it or it got lost among the countless spam of other (potentially important) things as well. Space Station's chat is TERRIBLE, but at least it trains quick reading and processing.

And if  you're skilled enough to teach, you're probably the one who needs to take charge of the cult and coordinate stuff anyways. Only once or twice besides my own humble person (Sollessa you're a nerd anyway!) I've seen another person take efforts to make sure shit gets done right, such as plasteel supply, people are equipped with cult gear (because, obviously, nobody reads the wiki and nobody knows about this downright OP shit we get from cult structures), there is a safeword set (and, if there's no radio in your base, somebody to relay the radio shotouts into blood voice) and caught people (how do you get caught in the flagellant's robes? =P ) are rite'd out. So if you can teach, there's much more important stuff to do anyways.

I enjoy interacting and teaching new players a lot (sometimes I go into a round with just that purpose, such as finding some newbie, buidling a space outset with him and whatnot), but cult is a bad time for it.

 

10 hours ago, necaladun said:

We've considered a few things like that, but the major worries we had were with elitism and it causing problems for people being treated poorly due to low playtime, and people with high playtime acting as if they're in charge/the boss/etc (esp for nukies), when playtime =/= skill. 

That'd be right, and that'd actually make it a terrible idea. One thing to note that it's not always elitism, but rather a preference to play with competent players. Sometimes I see old players (including mentors) side with each other and form a tag team, just because it's funnier after hours and hours of dealing with newbies / people who don't give a fuck.

Edited February 18, 2018 by JWaffles