Racial Suggestions Round 2: Karma races

[Fethas]

Okay as per last time i am taking suggestions of karma races what you would like to see added or changed about karma races:

These races are, Kidan, Vox, IPC, Grey, Drask, Slimes and Plasmamen.

I am not listing the pros and cons of each one this time so just get to the suggestions.

Though a bit of a disclaimer:

JUST CAUSE SUGGESTION IS MADE DOES NOT MEAN ALL WILL BE CONSIDERED DEPENDING ON HOW FEASIBLE IT IS OR HOW IT MIGHT AFFECT BALANCE SO DON'T GET UPSET IF IT SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE IGNORED. IT ALSO MIGHT BE CHANGED INTO SOMETHING YOU DIDN'T WANT DUE TO SAID BALANCE RESONS.

THE FIRST PERSON TO MENTION VOX LEAP GETS FED TO TIGER!

[TyOmaha]

nucleation for 200 karma

Edited March 21, 2018 by Ty Omaha

[EldritchSigma]

- IPCs are incredibly fragile... I know its their gimmick to be vulnerable to EMPs but really... instant kill? Who uses semiconductors and transistors in the future... or lacks emp proof materials. Make them pop off a limb, mute them and severly damage their internal components maybe. But not outright kill them. Its a joke for most antags to kill an IPC.

- Greys could get an immunity to Fluorosulphuric Acid. Because the Sulphuric Acid immunity is pretty useless considering only Fluorosulpuric Acid is used for murder. That or maybe make Sulphuric acid heal them slowly over time, kind of like Saline Glucose, just less efficient.

- Make cardtridges printable for plasmamans suits. Allow cargo to order spare plasmaman suits for some points.

- Remove Slime Squishing, Make Slimes weak to all temperature extremes, not just cold, but give them chemical resistance. Neurotoxin and Sarin should do considerable less damage considering they lack a liver and their brain is their slime core.

- Drask: Dunno make their armfins actually have a unique bashing sound because they look like they can be used for fighting. Make them maybe glow ever so slightly on their colored arm things.

- Vulnerable to heat (not fire/laser/energy/xray damage, just hot atmos), but harder bones to break. Maybe do something with their bones like... not being able to use patches with styptic powder due to having an exoskeleton. Raise brute resistance to balance that out.

 

[Blessed]

Kidan: Glowy bits that actually glow in the dark. Allow them to wear glasses or at the least huds. Light psionic abilities, able to understand which Gray is speaking to them instead of an unknown talker.

Vox: Allow cortical stacks to be implanted directly into borgs.

Grey: Decrease darksight, they're spaceship faring beings that have no use for dark vision.

Drask: Increase darksight to 6x6, glowy spines and eyes. Have a small chance (5%) not to drop items in hand due to extra thumb/Remove decay after death.

 Slimes: Easier revive, healing items/water restores their decay status to the previous stage.

Plasmamen: Remove space resistant suit.

[SkeletalElite]

How about that vox leap

Eldritch Sigma's slime changes and grey changes are cool too

Edited March 21, 2018 by SkeletalElite

[Ziiro]

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/8784

[Zairral]

Vox: Increase penalties for being maskless, like upping the toxin damage they receive. Because currently you can take off the breath mask and sit for 7 minutes (give or take) before the damage reaches 50 points, where it starts being dangerous. At the moment, being a maskless Vox isn't as life-or-death as people think it is, especially when you can down some vendor mugwort tea and be right as rain in under a minute.

Slime: They're made of water, one could give them a negative reaction to the Drying Agent chemical.

Grey: Give them other minor psychic powers to choose from at the character creation menu, so they could pick the Remote-Talk power to have or something else. Like the ability to summon a tiny flame into their selected hand on activation (like how some Wizard Touch spells work) that would give them all the benefits of holding a no-drop always-alight match; one that couldn't do anything a normal match or lighter couldn't.

Another potential ability could be one where a Grey could empathically take all/half of the pain/stamina damage of a target, at the cost of needing line-of-sight or a grab. That could also come with appropriate downsides, like getting stunned if the target is, or taking heavy brain damage should they die.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Zairral
Formatting

[Miraviel]

12 hours ago, EldritchSigma said:

- Greys could get an immunity to Fluorosulphuric Acid. Because the Sulphuric Acid immunity is pretty useless considering only Fluorosulpuric Acid is used for murder.

- Allow cargo to order spare plasmaman suits for some points.

- Make Slimes weak to all temperature extremes, not just cold, but give them chemical resistance. Neurotoxin and Sarin should do considerable less damage considering they lack a liver and their brain is their slime core.

 

10 hours ago, Blessed said:

Kidan: Glowy bits that actually glow in the dark. Allow them to wear glasses or at the least huds.

Grey: Decrease darksight, they're spaceship faring beings that have no use for dark vision.

Drask: Increase darksight to 6x6, glowy spines and eyes.

 

7 hours ago, Zairral said:

Vox: Increase penalties for being maskless, like upping the toxin damage they receive. Because currently you can take off the breath mask and sit for 7 minutes (give or take) before the damage reaches 50 points, where it starts being dangerous. At the moment, being a maskless Vox isn't as life-or-death as people think it is, especially when you can down some vendor mugwort tea and be right as rain in under a minute.

Slime: They're made of water, one could give them a negative reaction to the Drying Agent chemical.

I really like these suggestions (cropped the quotes a bit).

• Vox: This will be probably an unwelcomed opinion but I'd really, really love to see the brain transplant option for the Vox to be removed. It makes absolutely no sense that their brain can get used to an entirely different body, without the help of the cortical stack that is responsible for - among many other things -, breathing. Defib them, SR them, use a replica pod and turn them into a diona but don't just throw their brain into a humanized stok and call it a day. It might be more of a high RP suggestion though... But I'd like to see the cortical stack not only being a mechanical weakness (against revenant/EMP/ion) but also having an RP-value too.
• Vox 2: As Zairral said, Vox without masks are now... eh... I understand it's only 20% of the air they breathe in that is toxic for them but the damage they take is nonsense. The basic healing virus can entirely remove the need of a mask + nitrogen tank as well.
• IPC: Oh god please accept this PR in this form or another. I haven't played an IPC for months now but these guys need a buff.
• Grey: The above-mentioned fluorosulphuric immunity - well, I'd say, resistance and not complete immunity, but either works. They can already be taken down with your nearest fire extinguisher, it'd be nice if they survived at least the fluorosulphuric acid clouds.
• Drask: GLOWY SPIKES! And more of a darksight would be great, especially since they are a mainly underground species. (There isn't much to live for on the surface on Hoorlm...) But I'd be incredibly happy with a tiny bit of glowing animation alone. Gosh they are cool.
• Slime People: Emphasize more that they are made of water. The two suggestions above are great.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Miraviel

[GunDOS]

Personally, as far as plasmaman go. They only have a couple defined positive features;

A: They spawn with a spacesuit, and are space-proof. And due to the fact they wear helmets, are immune to gas/smoke.

B: They serve as a status symbol for players who’ve racked up 100+ karma.

As for negatives;

A: They explode immediately on contact with air, meaning any antag can instantly kill them by stunning/stealing their helmet. This doubles as making the plasmaman uncloneable, as they will just burst into flames again on being ejected from the cloner. And due to the lack of helmet, can’t be extinguished.

B: As antagonist changelings, if they change form they will catch on fire. And if you are not fast, you’ll die. As traitors they cannot change clothes, meaning once security disovers the bad guy is a plasmaman. Bye-bye stealth. As shadowlings, when they turn into the shadowling antags they eject their clothes, which has a high chance of killing them outright due to fire.

C: If you die as a plasmaman, that’s it for you. Cloning is arguably impossible for them, unless you either have a highly competent experienced medical team. (You need two of them for the quick method). Or you need to be put in a new body, which at that point. Why not just make them uncloneable?

My proposed solutions;

A: Instead of the plasmaman going on fire instantly, make it take several seconds. This gives you a chance to both clone them properly. And for the plasmaman to react to their attacker.

B: Instead of the plasma suit being an “exosuit” make it a jumpsuit and keeping the helmet as is. This lets you put items over it, allowing you to customise your plasmaman’s appearance somewhat. It also lets antags change clothes to preserve stealth.

C: Either change how changeling transform works, or shadowling transform works. To only ejecting clothes at the very end. Or remove shadowling and changeling from the roster of what antags plasmamen can be.

D: For the sake of synthetica, allow RnD to make the damn suits!

 

TL;DR: Plasmamen suffer from a multitude of issues, and debuffs. With very little in the way of buffs bar “muh karma status”.

Edited March 21, 2018 by GunDOS
Adds point D, and fixes some spelling errors

[EvadableMoxie]

Plasmamen don't just start with a hardsuit, they start with a hardsuit with no slowdown, which is a fairly significant advantage. The only other way to get that is to be a Vox or via Xenobiology.  Additionally, having no blood makes them immune to internal bleeding, which is a major killer, and heparin, one of the more effective poisons.

Plasmamen can be SR'd just like Slimes and Vox can, so reviving them isn't any harder than reviving those races. Easier, really, since you at least have the option to clone if you want it.

The main issue with allowing RnD to make plasmaman suits is you've just given access to hardsuits to science, and hardsuits is like the one thing science doesn't have. (Hence why plasmaman or vox are both great races for science powergaming antags) I believe other hardsuits can be used as alternative to plasmaman suits, but I'm not 100% on that.

[GunDOS]

30 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Plasmamen don't just start with a hardsuit,

It’s a soft-suit, not a hardsuit. And you don’t get slowdown from those. Movement speed, is really not an advantage considering they can’t take the suits off. In addition, they also suffer slowdown if they somehow manage to don another suit other then the standard plasma one. As for heparin, you have a point. I forgot they had no blood.

30 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

Plasmamen can be SR'd just like Slimes and Vox can, so reviving them isn't any harder than reviving those races. Easier, really, since you at least have the option to clone if you want it

They still catch on fire when S.R’d. And you cannot always rely on S.R being instantly available, that is why we have all treatment options open at roundstart. I’ve said in my previous post why it’s inpractical to clone them.

30 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

The main issue with allowing RnD to make plasmaman suits is you've just given access to hardsuits to science, and hardsuits is like the one thing science doesn't have. (Hence why plasmaman or vox are both great races for science powergaming antags) I believe other hardsuits can be used as alternative to plasmaman suits, but I'm not 100% on that

I refer to the above point, it’s not a hardsuit. And other suits can be worn instead of the plasmaman suit, the issue is the new suit does not extinguish them. This effectively kills the plasmaman before they are extinguished when they remove their original suit, making such a suit-swap inpractical for a lone plasmaman. This can be solved by my “several second” fix I posited before. If you want an example of this, I suggest setting yourself on fire. And then trying to put yourself out without stopping-dropping-and-rolling. That’s a good simulation of what it’s like.

As for your statement on powergaming antags. In my time here. I’ve seen plenty of Vox, but zero plasmaman successful antags. This however, is just my personal experience. So please take it with salt.

Edited March 21, 2018 by GunDOS
Various additions and fixes

[Allfd]

Species with fur should be harder to extinguish once on fire.

[Miraviel]

7 hours ago, GunDOS said:

A: Instead of the plasmaman going on fire instantly, make it take several seconds. This gives you a chance to both clone them properly. And for the plasmaman to react to their attacker.

I prefer this solution over the others. Science getting any more buff is a huge no for me, that department is already powergamey enough. If plasmamen don't catch on fire instantly, it'll make their cloning easier and it might solve the changeling/shadowling issue too. I would like to see this ingame.

Them being easily noticable shouldn't be changed though I think. Vox cannot morph successfully either (with genetics, they can as a changeling) and especially on lowpop, these races are rare. If you are a lone vox/plasmaman, expect to go loud! I think it's a fair price for having a softsuit at start and not having to deal with internal bleeding.

Speaking of internal bleeding: look at the new bone-repairing traitor item! Injuring loud antags is probably the best way to deal with them (as most of them are unable to be subdued) because you can cause IB + broken bones which both require surgery. Plasmamen cannot get IB and now they can fix broken bones too.

6 hours ago, GunDOS said:

As for your statement on powergaming antags. In my time here. I’ve seen plenty of Vox, but zero plasmaman successful antags. This however, is just my personal experience. So please take it with salt.

@bigfatbananacyclops is one of the most powerful antagonist I've seen on this server and he usually rolls plasmaman. I can only think of Cosmos and Chloros for now but I feel like I'm forgetting a third regular plasmaman antagonist... Check out how they operate, they make a very, very good use of their race and now that they can heal their bones - boy, I'm looking forward to their new gimmicks.

1 hour ago, Allfd said:

Species with fur should be harder to extinguish once on fire.

Also make them emit an awful smell!

Edited March 21, 2018 by Miraviel

[ZN23X]

1 hour ago, Allfd said:

Species with fur should be harder to extinguish once on fire.

I mean we ARE aiming for realism so...+1

[bigfatbananacyclops]

Asides from plasmaman having a free space suit, they cant wear anything else like a helmet or exosuit unless its fireproofed and their suit too, doing so  is a risk cause itll set people around on fire, plasmaman ALSO gets more damage with brute or lasers, they got a bigger chance of bone broke as far as i remember.

I believe every race already has a decent weakness.

Vox can die to EMP and have weak bones(higher chance of bone break) (They're loud and can be located way easier too when speaking)

Kidan cant even wear glasses, its annoying i believe they should be allowed to get special goggles. and pest spray kills them

Diona gets killed by plant b gone, they're strong but SLOW, they can self regen

Slimes, alot of stuff, cold, temperature gun, frost oil. Able to grow their own limbs.

Greys, fire extinguishers, and gets more damage, water kills them. Psionic Communication

Drasks, heat kills them, so does a temp gun. Breathing cold oxygen regenerates them (also loud)

IPC's, EMP of course. Easily repairable

Skrell, no idea but inmune to water like /the pool/, cant drown

Unathi no idea what's bad in them but they have claws and i swear i dont like the claw decap chance

Vulps, no idea. claws

Tajarans, no idea neither. and claws

Humans, bigger knockdown chance.

MY ACTUAL SUGGESTION

I suggest kidans can spawn with special goggles for them like sec huds , its impossible to play security as a kidan specially when you get flash gear, and you have no protection of it.

Raise the chance of greys extinguishing fire when they roll, litterally when theyre set on fire, theyll obviously get fire extinguished(with a intent of helping).. and thats going to kill them.

Plasmaman should atleast come out cloned but in a critical state, it's not fair to instantly take a player out once cloned then having no DOCTORS knowing how to revive. Atleast giving a chance to the doctor to put them on a cryotube before they die, seem fair.

One more suggestion even though the race isnt mentioned REMOVE CLAW DECAP CHANCE 

Edited March 21, 2018 by bigfatbananacyclops

[SkeletalElite]

29 minutes ago, bigfatbananacyclops said:

Asides from plasmaman having a free space suit, they cant wear anything else like a helmet or exosuit unless its fireproofed and their suit too, doing so  is a risk cause itll set people around on fire, plasmaman ALSO gets more damage with brute or lasers, they got a bigger chance of bone broke as far as i remember.

I was looking around to try and find this damage weakness but I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. I see no such damage modifiers in https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/blob/master/code/modules/mob/living/carbon/human/species/plasmaman.dm

 

Also I think if a non plasma man tries to put a plasma man suit on they just get "your species cannot wear this." If this is not the case, this should be made the case then the suits made printable in R&D. Also the delay on setting on fire sounds good.

Edited March 21, 2018 by SkeletalElite

[bigfatbananacyclops]

@SkeletalElite 

Weird, i imagined they do cause i feel i get more damage when hurt.

[BottomQuark]

10 hours ago, bigfatbananacyclops said:

I suggest kidans can spawn with special goggles for them like sec huds , its impossible to play security as a kidan specially when you get flash gear, and you have no protection of it.

Since I play Kidan: Yeah, I like that idea. 

In engineering, mesons are not that important, in medbay CMO starts with medical HUD implant, in security, you are basicly garbage if you play Kidan.

The only good advantage here is "Kida take 20% less brute damage". 
I never used that glow ability since it just does not work or is so weak that you cannot even notice that.
Claws are not that big deal.
And beeing unable to wear glasses is damn annoying. 

I wouldn't say that Kida are unbalanced or something.

By adding special glasses for Kidan race we remove the biggest ((and maybe the only that matter)) disadvantage they have.

Adding special goggles/HUD implants to "Racial" section in loadout that only Kida can use would be preety neat tho.

[YungCuz]

I've never seen a Unathi decap someone with just claws.
It sounds a bit...off.

Thenagaini'veneveraimedfortheheadunlessitruelywantedtokillsomeoneinmanyways.
 

[rb303]

Since I only ever play vulp I have a few suggestions.. First of all:

16 hours ago, Allfd said:

Species with fur should be harder to extinguish once on fire.

THIS, we have fur. Fur burns bad. Bonus points if people vomit when they smell burning fur.

Speaking of fur, make it so vulps have slightly higher cold resistance.

Vulps are based on dogs and foxes, so why not make them take toxic damage from eating things that contain chocolate or grapes.

Now this one I'm still not 100% certain on myself, but maybe increase their movement speed by a small amount? They're dog/wolf people,  and you could balance this by making their bones break easier. alternatively, there could be a sprint ability for them which deals stamina damage as long as you use it until you collapse.

[Chronarch]

I mean, It's not exactly the same fur that's on earth, it's chitin hair.

That's so freaking dumb

[rb303]

6 minutes ago, Chronarch said:

I mean, It's not exactly the same fur that's on earth, it's chitin hair.

That's so freaking dumb

Wait rea-

Huh. Lore is fun and all I guess but normal fur for gameplay purposes when?

Edit: there goes my idea for making them carnivores only too, I guess..

Edited March 22, 2018 by rb303

[EldritchSigma]

Chitin is suprisingly heat resistant unlike Keratin. Toxic chocolate is pretty memish. Make them like... pass out faster from oxyloss due to a faster metabolism rate or something

[Miraviel]

It would be nice to see vulps changed but try to stay on topic now, guys. (I thought the fur thing was a joke)

On 2018. 03. 21. at 1:42 AM, Fethas said:

Okay as per last time i am taking suggestions of karma races what you would like to see added or changed about karma races:

These races are, Kidan, Vox, IPC, Grey, Drask, Slimes and Plasmamen.

 

[shazbot194]

I have to keep this off topic for a second, the reason why dogs are poisoned by chocolate is because they are so small, realistically you can give them a tiny amount and they will be fine. DO NOT DO THIS, but it is possible. So realistically, it would take too much chocolate to poison a vulp, enough to kill a human. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by shazbot194