New Karma Role: Brig Technician

[SkeletalElite]

Kind of like brig physician but a mind shielded engineer who's job is to maintain and improve security.

Same karma cost as brig phys

[thatdanguy23]

I wonder if it would be better to tie this and the pod pilot into one role, maybe

[BottomQuark]

Funny, I actually asked HoS/CE if I could be "Security Engineer" a couple days ago :^). ((CE did not aprove for unknown reason?))

The problem with that would be:

• Even if brig gets breached from time to time, there is not much hull to fix there.
• Besides making autolathe,body scanner, surgery table, making back-up SMES and maybe reinforcing floor there is nothing to do.
• Brig phys has something to do, sec officers or prisonners always get demaged, and brig-engineer? Uh....

I REALLY like the idea. But I'd expand his resposibility to also help security outside the brig. Like, helping them break in certain areas etc.
I actually would main that job. I love the idea.

Spoiler

So, we would also need SoP for him, I suggest something like that:

1. The Brig Technician/Security Engineer may not, under any circumstance, arrest anyone
2. The Brig Technician/Security Engineer may not, under any circumstance, hinder Security’s work
3. The Brig Technician/Security Engineer may not, under any circumstance, directly alter a sentence, or attempt to contest one with Security personnel. Contacting a Magistrate/IAA/NT Representative is still acceptable
4. The Brig Technician/Security Engineer is permitted to carry a flash and a can of pepperspray
5. The Brig Technician/Security Engineer must keep security equipment operational.
6. The Brig Technician/Security Engineer should cooperate with Brig Physician, Warden and HoS and consctrust any needed equipment.
7. The Brig Technician/Security Engineer must attemp to repair breaches if there are no available Station Engineers and brig is fully operational.
8. The Brig Technician/Security Engineer is permitted to leave brig in order to gather needed equipment or help security personnel if engineering assistance is needed.

 

[SkeletalElite]

2 hours ago, BottomQuark said:

snip because this post is getting long

When I thought of this Idea in my head I thought you could also tie in some of the other suggestions that people suggest for new security roles but always get shot down because there is not enough for them to do. Like someone suggested in the security a thread a person who's job is to go out and get more stuff for security (from cargo or science). Maybe this roll can tie into that as well. The brig technician could go order a bunch of AeGs or worth the brig phys to have a bunch of implants delivered to sec to be put in officers. I think it would be a positive thing to move that stuff out of the warden's jurisdiction because I think a lack of leadership makes sec stressful to play. If we were to phase this kind of thing out of the Warden's duties instead and give the warden more emphasis on dispatching / keeping track of everything that's happening and letting the Head of Security know whats important and helping give the HoS who can have a hard time leading on his own a helping hand could improve leadership in security

 

Also another reason I liked this idea was that often times people like to do projects to build and expand new stuff in their departments, but security isn't one that can really do that and this would make it to where it is. They could build high security airlocks, reinforce the armory from space and make it harder to raid. Build various machines that would make sec's life easier. Help expand the operations of brigbay. More competent technicians could possibly end up with brig bay being a mini med bay, with cloning and chemistry and all. None of this stuff is stuff that players can't do. It's just stuff no one has time for since currently security has their hands tied doing other things most of the time and don't have the time to commit and finish projects like these. Sometimes an over achieving brig phys might accomplish this type of thing, but that is very rare and I thought pretty much every other department gets upgrades throughout the shift, so why not make sec consistently get upgrades too.

 

The brig tech would make that consistency. They would bring in new stuff from science, make sure brig bay is up to snuff, build new machines that would assist sec, they could reinforce areas of the brig should it be deemed necessarily, and they would be taking burden away from the warden allowing him to spend more time doing things more important

Edited April 12, 2018 by SkeletalElite

[Someonewithapen]

Totally not just liking this idea because it takes less off my work load as Brig Phys, but as well it would help save confusion when the Physician is slinking around engineering for tools and materials, and then hacking vendors to get the little things she likes, then hears an officer trying to get into a room and we just decide "Oh, here. We've got the tools, let's try our luck." and-

Yeah, having a Brig Engineer or giving the Pilot some more Engineering credentials would be nice.

[ZN23X]

Any engineer could try to sign up for this role any round. Engineering borgs frequently DO make it thier job to maintain and upgrade the brig.

I'd totally give the thumbs up for this role if I was the HOS or Warden.

I also do minor engineering stuff as pilot (patching breaches n such). Already have the tools and EVA. Even makes sense from an RP perspective as pilots have the knowledge to maintain thier space pod.

Edited April 12, 2018 by ZN23X

[McRamon]

why should it be something like brig phys? 

brigh tech could be more like some assault officer, with tools to hack and break antag forts. With additional responsibilities to maintain brig, reinforcing it, building more cameras in maints and so on. Yes, it could be pod pilot reworked as a engineer officer who have engineering tools, some assault tools (few c4 or something) and pod. He should not go and arrest people or patrol station (unless he is only available officer) and should be called if officers need to get somewhere they cant without help

[BottomQuark]

49 minutes ago, McRamon said:

brigh tech could be more like some assault officer, with tools to hack and break antag forts. With additional responsibilities to[...]

Yes, it could be pod pilot reworked as a engineer officer who have engineering tools.

Yeah, sounds like sec pod pilot.

[Someonewithapen]

It would be nice if the Brig Tech could also cooperate with the Brig Phys in regards to IPC/Cyborg repairs as well.

[SkeletalElite]

Turning pod pilot into an engineer isn't really what I had in mind and I think a lot of pod pilot players play pod pilot to be an officer with emphasis on space stuff. Changing them into an engineer would turn off many players who like the way the role currently is, myself included

[Coldflame]

I think this has some balance implications worth considering but that aside:

It'd probably be more intuitive and enjoyable were this role an officer with access to tools/sec hardsuit/materials rather than an engineer based in security (a la brig phys). Giving them the dual role of brig improvements and that of a field engi (tactical breaches and such) would make it a dynamic and interesting role. I can't forsee this having great powergaming potential honestly outside of making the brig more secure than it already is. 'Security Technician' might be a better idea for the name.

An engineer in security brig-phys style wouldn't be a very interesting role to play longer term tbh, it would likely involve doing the same constructions every round.

Rolling it into pilot could be a decent idea but I'm unsure what this would bring to the table in that case outside of buffing a role that's already officer+.

[BottomQuark]

31 minutes ago, Coldflame said:

An engineer in security brig-phys style wouldn't be a very interesting role to play longer term tbh, it would likely involve doing the same constructions every round

*points to shitton of people tired of station goals* You said anything?
Engineering itself involves doing THE SAME things over and over again.
Like setting up engine/station goals/etc.
That would be REALLY interesting for people that play engineers to actually play as part of the security.

[Fox McCloud]

Absolutely not.

 

One of the reasons science is so reviled is that they're not only strong, but one of the more self-sufficient departments. Making departments more self-sufficient is a step in the wrong direction. Departments are meant to have to rely on others when things go  awry or mistakes are made. This self-sufficiency does exist, to a certain degree, in all departments, but that's not a reason to expand it. Overall, there should probably be a reduction in self-sufficiency, not an increase of it.

[SkeletalElite]

2 hours ago, Fox McCloud said:

Absolutely not.

 

One of the reasons science is so reviled is that they're not only strong, but one of the more self-sufficient departments. Making departments more self-sufficient is a step in the wrong direction. Departments are meant to have to rely on others when things go  awry or mistakes are made. This self-sufficiency does exist, to a certain degree, in all departments, but that's not a reason to expand it. Overall, there should probably be a reduction in self-sufficiency, not an increase of it.

 Literally any department can make it self completely self sufficient by getting some tools and a few machines (almost no scientists ever denies requests that aren't completely ridiculous) and sec is the only exception to that because no sec officers have time to do all the preparation required. It's not that uncommon that you see private RnDs built in engineering, and that's something cargo could do even easier than engineering if anyone there was bothered enough to pester science. The Technician gives sec an equal chance for the brig to have self sufficiency as the other departments currently have and that self sufficiency isn't something leaving the other departments any time soon. To leave sec as the least self sufficient department when they're the most important department doesn't make any sense

Edited April 17, 2018 by SkeletalElite

[Tayswift]

Okay, but that's kinda powergamey and it's kinda frowned upon. Having an official position in sec for the purposes of building a self contained security department is officially saying it's okay for that to happen. Also, the brig engineer would be mindshielded.

[Fox McCloud]

I can just about guarantee what will happen with the "Brig Technician"; invariably, he'd probably have basic engineering access, much like the brig physician has basic medbay access.

 

On the whole, much like the brig physician, there's not going to be a whole lot of pressure or responsibility except when things go wrong in a major way (ie: sec gets bombed or something). This gives them an incredibly amount of free time to do whatever he wants.

 

We already know what this leads to, with the Brig physician. The job was originally created to patch up beat up/hurt suspects/detained individuals, not security personnel. What the brig physician has become is security's private medical doctor, with setups like this considered something noble to aim for:

 

I can easily see things developing the same way for this job. The pitch is that it's to help security patch up/fix up things that go wrong. It may very well be that, at first, but having access and tools (not to mention a huge one; legitimacy via antag immunity and mindshield) will see said individual helping out security via other means. My best guess? The "gold standard" for a brig technician will end up being raiding tech storage and building security their own personal R&D lab. It also has another nasty feedback loop in that it makes it even easier for the Brig physician to do the above because it provides an easier method for acquiring various medical circuits.

 

Another issue is that it's also going to provide security with a dedicated, go-to, trustworthy hacker for breaking into just about anywhere.

 

This is what I'm getting at with self-sufficiency. Small, seemingly innocent additions can have large impacts on the behavior that develops within a department. Brig physician is a key example of this.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Fox McCloud

[Someonewithapen]

Something something paved with good intentions..

I'll cop to this. Being prepared for anything and everything as a Brig Phys is now routine for me, and while this is great when it bleeds into working other medical roles, I can see it being an issue of Powergaming. While I would not bring my infirmary to the level of Val's here (Cloning lab is just too much, and body scanner/surgery computer is for nerds), I do have the tendency to have surgery tools on hand immediately, steal ask nicely for a defrib unit, order a chemistry station, grab a few tools for the odd IPC, then loiter in the brig garden to make a shoulder holster or two - Anyone looking close enough can see how far downhill it can go.

I'm sure Sec can live without an in-home engineer.

[WingedYordle]

5 hours ago, Fox McCloud said:

I can just about guarantee what will happen with the "Brig Technician"; invariably, he'd probably have basic engineering access, much like the brig physician has basic medbay access.

 

On the whole, much like the brig physician, there's not going to be a whole lot of pressure or responsibility except when things go wrong in a major way (ie: sec gets bombed or something). This gives them an incredibly amount of free time to do whatever he wants.

 

We already know what this leads to, with the Brig physician. The job was originally created to patch up beat up/hurt suspects/detained individuals, not security personnel. What the brig physician has become is security's private medical doctor, with setups like this considered something noble to aim for:

 

I can easily see things developing the same way for this job. The pitch is that it's to help security patch up/fix up things that go wrong. It may very well be that, at first, but having access and tools (not to mention a huge one; legitimacy via antag immunity and mindshield) will see said individual helping out security via other means. My best guess? The "gold standard" for a brig technician will end up being raiding tech storage and building security their own personal R&D lab. It also has another nasty feedback loop in that it makes it even easier for the Brig physician to do the above because it provides an easier method for acquiring various medical circuits.

 

Another issue is that it's also going to provide security with a dedicated, go-to, trustworthy hacker for breaking into just about anywhere.

 

This is what I'm getting at with self-sufficiency. Small, seemingly innocent additions can have large impacts on the behavior that develops within a department. Brig physician is a key example of this.

Well said. Also that is what cyborgs are for. Repairs for brig.

[WingedYordle]

2 hours ago, Someonewithapen said:

Something something paved with good intentions..

I'll cop to this. Being prepared for anything and everything as a Brig Phys is now routine for me, and while this is great when it bleeds into working other medical roles, I can see it being an issue of Powergaming. While I would not bring my infirmary to the level of Val's here (Cloning lab is just too much, and body scanner/surgery computer is for nerds), I do have the tendency to have surgery tools on hand immediately, steal ask nicely for a defrib unit, order a chemistry station, grab a few tools for the odd IPC, then loiter in the brig garden to make a shoulder holster or two - Anyone looking close enough can see how far downhill it can go.

I'm sure Sec can live without an in-home engineer.

All I need is a advance scan and tools. Major surger can be done else where with security escort. *flexes*

[davidchan]

Sec Tech is bad idea imo. I've been saying for a while now that Detective and Brig Phys need to be physically removed from the Brig, keep them close by maybe, but not in their perimeter. The more stuff security has, the more likely they are to withdraw to their little sec haven and wait out any major disasters (Rev and Nations come to mind, but even Cult and Sling rounds have this in spades.)

Security keeps defaulting to this 'Us vs Them' attitude that makes them stomp all over non-sec/non-head roles and ignore anything that isn't valids.

Having Non-Head Roles from various departments with round start privileges to go into the brig is good on paper, but they shouldn't be loyalty implanted and HoS should not be their boss.

 

@Fox McCloud What if the server made some Heavy Duty APCs that had extra Power Cells inside (Mini-SMES effectively) and things like Cloner and Cryotubes (and arguably the Lathes) had significantly increased power drains so they'd never complete a proper cloning on a regular APC? If someone wants an All-In-One fort they need to put in the extra effort of upgrading the wiring and Powernet in their area to make use of it? 

[Zciwomad]

Another aspect of this idea is meta/powergaming antag that would try to eliminate anyone in this position, for a valid reason: Slow down, or terminate Sec progress. It's not easy for half-robust, stealth focused Syndicate Agent to operate from 01:30 to end of the shift, when other departments are trying to benefit Sec(Genes/Weapons/etc). With someone like this onboard, I would consider picking him off myself, when I usually avoid Sec and early reveal as IPC would avoid Ion weaponry.

Just imagine what someone could do, with good knowledge of Science and with a lot of spare time for sec: Teleporting officers out of combat, when they receive some damage. Every officer prescanned in cloner and with bomb that will blow up if they die, gibbing them, of course. 

[Someonewithapen]

53 minutes ago, davidchan said:

I've been saying for a while now that Detective and Brig Phys need to be physically removed from the Brig, keep them close by maybe, but not in their perimeter. The more stuff security has, the more likely they are to withdraw to their little sec haven and wait out any major disasters (Rev and Nations come to mind, but even Cult and Sling rounds have this in spades.)

I certainly wouldn't mind having an infirmary separate from the brig if it gives me more room to play with if it gets rid of that damn courtroom

1 hour ago, davidchan said:

@Fox McCloud What if the server made some Heavy Duty APCs that had extra Power Cells inside (Mini-SMES effectively) and things like Cloner and Cryotubes (and arguably the Lathes) had significantly increased power drains so they'd never complete a proper cloning on a regular APC? If someone wants an All-In-One fort they need to put in the extra effort of upgrading the wiring and Powernet in their area to make use of it? 

I can get behind this. While it would be harder to restore Cloners from the odd mad-bomber, if they were more resilient to those types of things as well that would be good.

8 minutes ago, Zciwomad said:

Another aspect of this idea is meta/powergaming antag that would try to eliminate anyone in this position, for a valid reason: Slow down, or terminate Sec progress. It's not easy for half-robust, stealth focused Syndicate Agent to operate from 01:30 to end of the shift, when other departments are trying to benefit Sec(Genes/Weapons/etc). With someone like this onboard, I would consider picking him off myself, when I usually avoid Sec and early reveal as IPC would avoid Ion weaponry.

Considering this, you would think an antagonist would jump on a Brig Phys while they're doing their shift-start run-around-the-station, but I've yet to have it happen to me, personally.

[Zciwomad]

Brig phys only patches Officers up. Nothing that they couldn't get from going to Medbay, only a little slower. What this really changes? Something that have impact after the fight. If you don't have Hijack objective, this doesn't matter at all. If one brig phys is killed, it's easy for another to replace previous one. This is why picking this role off have no reason and it's even better(from entirely Meta/Power point) to kill normal officer.

Brig Tech would try to give Sec improvement, some advantage that they wouldn't get, or that they were not that likey. Autolathes in brig... That kind of stuff. If frist Tech would start doing something(turrets/lathes/etc) it's a little harder for second to just start where previous has ended. At worse, sec improvement is slowed down. At best it's terminated. 

[Spacemanspark]

I think this would be very excessive, as others have stated.

[Vivalas]

Sounds cool but I agree that this would have negative effects in terms of powergaming and less cooperation among departments.