New Karma Role: Brig Technician

[EvadableMoxie]

So basically the question is why is giving Security their own doctor okay, but giving them their own engineer isn't? For me, the answer to that question is that security is a shit job we often have trouble getting people to do.  The least we can do is help mitigate the increased risk of being removed from the round by giving them their own doctor (And often their own medbay as people have pointed out).

But a technician is kind of a different story.  It sucks if the brig is damaged but it isn't removing anyone from the round directly.

[Tayswift]

1 hour ago, EvadableMoxie said:

So basically the question is why is giving Security their own doctor okay, but giving them their own engineer isn't? For me, the answer to that question is that security is a shit job we often have trouble getting people to do.  The least we can do is help mitigate the increased risk of being removed from the round by giving them their own doctor (And often their own medbay as people have pointed out).

But a technician is kind of a different story.  It sucks if the brig is damaged but it isn't removing anyone from the round directly.

As Fox has stated, Brig phys is aimed to be a doctor for prisoners, not for sec. It's only over time turned into a doctor, but for security.

Making an engineer, but for security, will just legitimize powergaming in the form of building an entire department.

[EvadableMoxie]

I don't really think what it was intended to be is all that relevant, beyond perhaps illustrating that intentions and outcomes don't always align. Either way, it's far more relevant is what it is and why that's okay, but this wouldn't be.

Edited April 27, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[Tayswift]

The point is that even though SOP says the brig phys's duties are caring for prisoners, they've power creeped into caring for sec.

If we add in a role that right off the bat says "build a parallel station for sec" on the tin, then that's going to be 10 times worse.

Edit: IMO, it's fine that the brig phys extends into supporting security. But it is technically an overextension, so it keeps you a little more restrained. A brig engineer would not even have the appearances of not powergaming security.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Tayswift
Clarify

[Sonador]

Just chiming in to say that if you are instructing brig physicians to only heal prisoners and otherwise ignore injured/dying people, including security staff, in the brig, you should probably remove the role. You are asking medical staff to ignore the Hippocratic nature of their role and expecting them to adhere to it as a gameplay rule is unrealistic and shortsighted. It is far more reasonable to expect discretion from and subsequently reprimand a "Brig Technician" for building SecurityStation(tm) instead of hanging around and being lazy when there's no damage to the brig to repair, than it is to instruct *medical personnel* to not perform *medical care.*

While we're on the subject of roles doing shit they're not supposed to, let's talk about magistrates interfering with the warden and HoS'es ability to administer the brig, which is far more problematic than an EMT being an EMT.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Sonador

[Someonewithapen]

Additionally: Good luck getting some officers to prefer limping over to Medbay after dealing with a criminal when there's a questionably qualified doctor not three yards to their left. Telling an Brig Phys to specifically not heal anyone but prisoners is, as mentioned, a breach of that delightful Hippocratic Oath but as well crippling security in any situation where they will inevitably need surgery after dealing with the issue (Shadowlings, Terror Spiders, any high damage antagonist.) Brig Phys is also already restricted by what they can get from other departments, as I know all to well. If a Brig Phys doesn't need a cloning pod/cyro tube/chemistry station, then the respective department for the materials could easily tell them "No." And then report them for B&E when the doctor tries to get it themselves.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Someonewithapen

[Biffthegreat]

What if the role of brig technician was instead changed away from engineering to a more caretaker role.

Add:

In addition to basic tools for minor damage. Add Janitorial equipment, lights and to keep the brig clean, and neat. As well as cleaning up any blood and removing corpses and SSD. This would be more roleplay based, cleaning up messes and replacing lights, as well as encouraging sec to properly process evidence to keep rooms clear and clean. 

Remove:

Engineering access to stop powergaming (simple tools only in a closet in sec).

 

 

In this way its sort of a brig specific engi-janitor hybrid. Because engineering/janitor rarely fix the minor issues in the Brig and it can be frustrating for them with lack of access and busy security.

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Biffthegreat

[WingedYordle]

... just get an engineer mode cyborg station at brig. Done.

*Flexes*

[Benjaminfallout]

Idea: Have assistants do it.

[Fox McCloud]

An even better idea: actually having the department that has the responsibility of taking care of the problem their job was designed for to handle it.

 

I apologize for the bit of snark, but really, I don't understand, at all, this notion of "let's add an existing job to my department only it's loyal to my department alone".

 

No department is meant to be an island unto itself; no department is meant to be immune to the risks and incompetencies of having to deal with another department; security is no exception. Before someone brings up how ridiculous science can get at times; that's not an excuse for other departments to be just as ridiculous. You don't resolve a problem by creating another similar problem so they're both equal; you resolve the problem where it occurs.

 

I'm further perplexed why this mentality crops up specifically with regards to security as a department; what is it that somehow set security apart from needing/deserving their own special role within that department? (The only exception I can recall is a few very very brief suggestion for a mining doctor). If that's the case, why shouldn't medical get their own engineering job, loyal to medical? Why shouldn't mining get their own science researcher role? Why shouldn't science get their own security officer *loyal only to them*? What is it about security, as a department, that specifically draws people to want to make it self-sufficient?

 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Fox McCloud

[WingedYordle]

10 minutes ago, Fox McCloud said:

An even better idea: actually having the department that has the responsibility of taking care of the problem their job was designed for to handle it.

 

I apologize for the bit of snark, but really, I don't understand, at all, this notion of "let's add an existing job to my department only it's loyal to my department alone".

 

No department is meant to be an island unto itself; no department is meant to be immune to the risks and incompetencies of having to deal with another department; security is no exception. Before someone brings up how ridiculous science can get at times; that's not an excuse for other departments to be just as ridiculous. You don't resolve a problem by creating another similar problem so they're both equal; you resolve the problem where it occurs.

 

I'm further perplexed why this mentality crops up specifically with regards to security as a department; what is it that somehow set security apart from needing/deserving their own special role within that department? (The only exception I can recall is a few very very brief suggestion for a mining doctor). If that's the case, why shouldn't medical get their own engineering job, loyal to medical? Why shouldn't mining get their own science researcher role? Why shouldn't science get their own security officer *loyal only to them*? What is it about security, as a department, that specifically draws people to want to make it self-sufficient?

 

^ Exactly 

[davidchan]

While I certainly don't agree with OP's proposed new role, and wouldn't be the least upset if the brig phys got removed from the brig or cut entirely, I do feel that at least part of the drive for more mixed department job slots is an attempt to get more people to play in a department, specifically Security as on high pop rounds even a full security dept can feel vastly outnumbered and unable to aptly do their jobs. If the server pop continues to rise we will eventually have to add jobs/job slots to various departments just to accommodate the growth.

Problem is, ever since security got loyalty ensured detectives, brig phys, IAA/Lawyers they've felt entitled as a department to have people garunteed never to have antag motives to kill them, and the sacred green square on their SecHUD to always ensure such loyalty.

[Norwest]

On 4/27/2018 at 12:44 PM, Fox McCloud said:

No department is meant to be an island unto itself

Are we playing the same game?

Sorry for my own snark, but the SS13 departments are so siloed that it spawned its own gamemode. "Departments should cooperate" is certainly a nice sentiment, but mechanically-speaking, it's a Herculean task. Let's go over the specifics:

-Poor communications: Departments have different radios, and with very few individuals having the encryption keys for multiple departments (Geneticists and the Brig Physician being interesting exceptions). Even Command members are generally restricted to the comms of their own departments and the secret Command channel, with any inter-departmental communication being carried out either in person, via PDA, or over the spammed Common chat. GoodSam the Helpful Scientist might want to give Medbay a hand, but he has no easy means of communicating with them, nor of listening to their issues to know exactly what they need and when.

-Territory and territoriality: Departments have their own, well-marked turf, and departmental members are justifiably cantankerous about others stepping foot in that area. ID-locked doors and trespassing laws keep departmental members away from each other outside of emergencies or antagonist activity. Face-to-face interaction between members of different departments is generally rare and limited to common areas (or Medbay, since Mebay gets traipsed over despite doctors' protests nearly every shift). When your only interactions with another department are via yelling at them over general comms or banging on their front door, I think it's fairly obvious why inter-departmental relations might be somewhat strained.

-Few means of inter-departmental compellence: As a frequent Chief Engineer, I see this issue crop up quite a bit with regards to the station goals. I need Cargo to send me the BSA crate, or Botany to actually get some plant DNA samples for effing once. I ask 'em over general comms to carry out whatever action I need done, and wait, and wait, and wait...When Cargo blows its points on pizzas and party hats instead of ordering what I need, or Xenobiology dismisses me outright, my options are extremely limited. I can ask 'em nicely or try to guilt-trip the offending party into compliance, ask the relevant Head of Staff to discipline them, or hope that the Captain will take time from every other task they have to address my fairly minor inter-departmental issue. My only other forceful options are downright illegal: refusing medical care to another department as the CMO, cutting power or venting atmos as the CE, telescience-stealing gear as the RD - well, I'm sure you can see how practices like those were institutionalized into the Nations gamemode. It's downright infuriating at times, and it shouldn't be any wonder that more-seasoned players spend extra effort to avoid ending up reliant on other departments in the first place.

These are all examples of centrifugal factors, as Hartshorne would call them: social forces which divide people and push them apart. The station has divided physical geography, segregated communications, underdeveloped command structures, and a siloed departmental architecture which encourages strife rather than cooperation. Forcing cooperation, like with the science R&D update a year or so ago (removing Science's autolathe in the hopes that they'd go to Cargo instead) largely just results in players implementing a work-around. In cases where one can't be implemented, such as the station goals, there certainly are interactions, just not good ones. The flipside is categorized as centripedal forces, or things which bring people together, and currently there's a lot missing:

-Few shared departmental goals: Engineering keeps the lights on, Medbay keeps the crew healthy, Sec keeps 'em safe, Research powergames like crazy...all well and good in theory, but in practice these general aims don't interact closely with each other. There are a couple exceptions to this rule, such as the station goals (primarily Cargo/Engineering, although Botany and Science get involved in the BSA and DNA Vault), but by and large different departments don't have much reason to go out of their way to cooperate.

-A lack of focus on individuals: as a Engineer or Scientist , for example, your remit is (technically) the entire bloody station. You're supposed to either maintain or improve, respectively, the entire Cyberiad - or worse, Metastation - with no guidance provided beyond that. I'm sure you've heard of the importance of singling people out when trying to compel action during an emergency, i.e. pointing at someone when saying "call 911" instead of just asking a crowd as a whole? Consider that same phenomenon here, and how to overcome it; I've got some suggestions below, but I'm sure there are others.

-Few means of rewarding good behavior: As a frequent Command player, I would kill for my own medal box - and I'm not talking about that bloody captaincy medal. There's a quote attributed to Napoleon about how "a soldier will fight long and hard for a length of colored ribbon," and as a Captain, I've seen clear positive effects of handing out medals appropriately. I try to do my best by congratulating helpful people via announcements, but I'd love to see actual mechanical, institutionalized means of promoting and rewarding cooperation and good player behavior.

 

You've argued pretty clearly how you want to encourage inter-departmental interactions, and at least in theory I'm not opposed. My issue with that is that not all interactions are good ones, and that the current game mechanics allow unwanted player behaviors while preventing or suppressing desirable ones. Using that as a rhetorical starting point, let's talk about achievable means of encouraging positive behaviors:

-Medal box: As mentioned, gib relevant medals plz. Seriously, I would love to be able to decorate helpful people in an in-game way. Other means of giving either individuals or departments an 'attaboy' would always be appreciated - a "Most Helpful Department" trophy that the Captain could hand out, for instance?

-More inter-departmental goals: Additional means of congratulating one department assisting another at round end, for instance. Game mechanics like Medbay getting a tally of how many members of other departments were healed or saved during the shift ("3 Security Officers, 1 Scientist, and 2 Botanists were revived inside Medbay this shift/8830 health points were gained back in Medbay," etc.), or everyone getting the option to commend a particular department at round-end ("[Science] was commended the most this shift, by 12 non-Science players"), would provide some means of encouragement for desirable behavior.

-Departmental assignments: The generic members of large departments (Scientists, Engineers, Security Officers, etc.) start with an 'assignment' to another department. They get an armband and relevant radio encryption key in their packs at roundstart, along with an initial briefing reading something like "You have been assigned to the Medbay/Science/etc. department. You are to assist them as best you can." This would cut out the issues of a lack of comms and the deindividuation issue of being a single person in a larger department: when someone in Medbay starts complaining about the broken window in the front lobby, Joe Schmoe the Medbay Engineer is positioned to both hear about the issue (due to having access to Medbay's comms) and act (due to having a greater sense of responsibility towards Medbay than any other Engineer).

Of course, I'm sure any Sec players reading this are already wincing at the thought of Sec comms being compromised from the very start by some well-meaning effort like this - but if the person with Sec comms is mindshielded, then the issue is moot, no? I'd trace the efforts which led to the Brig Physician and this proposed Brig Technician as trying to overcome the antagonist issue in this same way, and although I agree that the proposed Brig Technician role doesn't have enough to do currently, I do appreciate the effort at making a Sec/Engineering hybrid rather than the usual in-game response of "say ; ENGIS TO BRIG PLEASE and pray that someone actually responds." Certainly, as CE I've blown off Sec asking for help with something in order to deal with some other issue, because I've no particular attachment to dealing with their issues, and no reward for prioritizing helping them.

 

In that sense, I would argue that the Brig Physician is largely a positive force for inter-departmental cooperation, rather than being a "departmental island," as you put it. They have both Medical and Security comms, along with access to both departments, and remit to help patients in both areas. In practice, while Brig Physicians will set up surgery nearly every shift, I honestly can't even remember the last time I've seen one set up cryo or cloning (sometime this past January, perhaps?). Brig Physicians carry out surgery because the two ORs are usually overworked by the massive player population and all the injuries they accrue, but for other issues (making meds, cloning, getting viruses, etc.) Brig Physicians work through Medbay in an honestly-heartwarming example of inter-departmental cooperation. If you want to make them more inter-departmental, then I'd suggest making the BrigPhys a Medical role rather than a Security one, and placing them under command of the CMO rather than the HoS. While they'll still spend most of their time in the Brigbay due to simple circumstance, it'll provide the Brig Physician with more of a reason to be in the Medbay, and encourage them to participate more over there rather than just staying in Sec.

You could do the same with the OP's proposed 'Brig Technician' role, too. Rename them to the 'High-Security Engineer' or something similar, and have them start in Engineering under the command of the Chief Engineer; their only Sec-specific gear would be Brig access and a Security encryption key. Rather than being just responsible for helping in the Brig, they'd be responsible for any restricted area that needs a pair of hands (or when there's no engieborgs, again); you could further encourage that by having them start with a basic trashbag and a box of lightbulbs to indicate their role's mundane remit. With a roundstart mindshield, they could be trusted have Sec comms without turning it into a massive RNG gamble of "will they roll antag and compromise Security comms from the get-go?" Without their own office to turn into a fortress, though, and still being otherwise treated as a regular Engineer, the role's mechanics would encourage them to act merely as an Engineer with the goal of helping out Security in particular.

 

 

Tl;dr version: Departments can interact in bad ways (yelling over comms) as well as good ones. The focus should be on encouraging good interactions, rather than just any interactions whatsoever.