Can we start throwing people out of airlock for knowing that the station is going to have antags at the start of the round?

[Benjaminfallout]

Nothing makes me hate someone more then when I ask:

Why are you bolting the teliporter?

Why did you have the AI set the doors to max?

Why did the suit sensors message talk about finding are mangled bodies?

Why is Security going around maintenance on green at 12:02?

Etc.

And I get a response saying there "preparing." or it's "just in case."

The only time any of this should ever have is with reason. Not the "I know there are going to be antags so I better do this."

[Tayswift]

I think it's okay to assume there may be some shenanigans that happen during any particular shift, since supposedly corporate espionage is quite common in our universe where corporations have gone out of control.

However, presumably there are some calmer shifts in between the shifts that we play, so suit sensor announcements about mangled bodies and stuff is really meta. AIs bolting random stuff, especially on crewsimov, is also dumb, since a crew member could just ask for the door to be unbolted (but of course, these kind of powergaming AIs would make up some excuse not to listen). I think sec patrolling maint is okay, tho.

[Benjaminfallout]

You do bring up a good point about espionage being common. I still don't like the idea of taking action agenst antags before there descovered. That and security has no reason to enter maintenance at round start other that someone calling for help or someone's suit sensors reporting damage.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Benjaminfallout

[ZN23X]

On the other side you also have antags who speed run the gateway, syndie outpost, and gather whatever supplies they need to give them an edge within the first 10 min of a shift and use all the meta knowledge of hiding spots and whatever else every round. Guess I'm just pointing out the behavior exists on both sides. I don't approve of it in either case.

Both regularly lead to very predictable and boring rounds. 

Unsolvable problem. Some people care about winning more than anything. That will never change.

Edited April 17, 2018 by ZN23X

[Benjaminfallout]

This is a great discussion when it comes to that. I guess overall it is human nature to do everything they can to win. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Benjaminfallout
Does that link work..?

[Benjaminfallout]

God humans suck.

[Normalyman]

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[shazbot194]

I will say, I am fine with the suit sensor message, as long as it does seem like it either is a 'just in case' thing, as accidents do happen, especially with NT's great safety record, or are clearly joking. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by shazbot194

[Bxil]

I've had to deal with crewsimov AIs with shitty excuses far too much.

Or when I am a captain and the only active traitor gets permad, and security yells at me for returning to green, because "THERE IS ALWAYS MORE!"

[shazbot194]

1 minute ago, Bxil said:

Or when I am a captain and the only active traitor gets permad, and security yells at me for returning to green, because "THERE IS ALWAYS MORE!"

Just saying, from an RP standpoint, you should go to blue for like 5 minutes, then to green if nothing else happens, as it would be a little odd to go from 'EVERYONE PANIC' to 'All is good in this world'.

[Tayswift]

52 minutes ago, Benjaminfallout said:

God humans suck.

I agree, I think the only solution to this problem is to invent a time machine, go back 3.7 billion years when prokaryotic life first emerged on this planet and wipe it all from existence. Glory to synthetica!

[WingedYordle]

Just had a captain meta knowledge me as NTRep. Didn't work out to well for him.

 

He had captain hardsuit helmet on and carried his antique gun around because apparently people always break into his office for it.

Wolf pretty much told him to STFU, you are not in danger, your office is safe, return your equipment or be reported to Central for misuse

[ZN23X]

Ya echoing Wolf. One of the best ways to combat this behavior is to shame it IC. I regularly tell sec officers who do the "theres always more than 1 antag" or "something bad always happens" that they are paranoid n should go visit the psych. Shame other players for failing to react to snapping thier finger off, or seeing someone die in front of them, or explosions, etc. Just shame people for reacting to things that would realistically be awful to experience or see. When people are acting unusual IC I'll be like "What the hell is wrong with you? Do you think this is some kind of video game?"

Some people forget or simply dont know/care that per the lore, there is an indefinite amount of boring shifts where nothing goes wrong between the ones we play in, and the ones we play in are just one of the shifts where something went wrong.

From OUR perspective as the player something always goes wrong, but in the spess universe that is not the case.

Edited April 18, 2018 by ZN23X

[Sk1Tz]

I mean, you're going to have this shit happen continuously. I cannot count how many times when a non-antag civilian goes into maintenance and starts gathering unneeded shit like grenade casings. Unless you're like a roboticist and need supplies for your bots, or something similar in that matter, basic civilians shouldn't be entering the damn tunnels...

They even go into the tools storage shed and start robbing the place of its tools. Why? You don't have a job in engineering. Why the hell are you equiping yourself a full set of tools that someone useful would need later down the road? Why you taking shit from the engineers' personal tool closet? You're not an engineer, why you in here? Why you taking shit from the closets, civs?

Edited April 18, 2018 by Sk1Tz

[McRamon]

i think suit sensors announcements are ok due to besides antags there are many ways to get into critical which maybe not even possible due to game mechanics - accidental pipe explosion under your feet in maintenance, mistake with bomb you are making in science, slimes eat your ass, space carps, xeno on asteroid and so on. 

Door timers - as a HoP i am most of the time very good target for pranks and shitlers so i ask AI for door timers not because antags, this wont stop them anyway, but because greytide.

Security in maint, bolting places - not okay from my perspective.

 

2 hours ago, Sk1Tz said:

I mean, you're going to have this shit happen continuously. I cannot count how many times when a non-antag civilian goes into maintenance and starts gathering unneeded shit like grenade casings. Unless you're like a roboticist and need supplies for your bots, or something similar in that matter, basic civilians shouldn't be entering the damn tunnels...

They even go into the tools storage shed and start robbing the place of its tools. Why? You don't have a job in engineering. Why the hell are you equiping yourself a full set of tools that someone useful would need later down the road? Why you taking shit from the engineers' personal tool closet? You're not an engineer, why you in here? Why you taking shit from the closets, civs?

When i play assistant, i consider myself to be mini-engineer, if i am not antag, i often get tools and help station anywhere i can with repairs and building, or even medical help (i ask medbay for some burn and brute kits), i help bartender to make bar fancy, even make floor- and medibots, sooo.... well, you are right, civs dont need them, but assistants do. 

[Zciwomad]

It's becouse it is a "Medium-RP" server. In the spite of that, the only thing that can be done are the IC punishments: 

Breaking to Tech storage for insulated gloves? Chase those criminals and brig them. Even 5 minutes in cell is enough for everyone else to clear the maintenance from any valuable loot. OOC tears for sure, but this will teach them for the future. 

Security bragging about "there is always more antagonists" without evidence ? Force (literally FORCE) them to visit Psychiatrist. Their paranoid behaviour might be a first symptom of their inability to work there.

This way Paradise will stay as a MRP server, where it depends on you how much RP, above bare minimum, you will give. At the same time, low RP will be discouraged by IC manners by means like shame in IC, or wasting few minutes.

[rb303]

Security is already tough enough, i don't like people punishing them like this. Security patrolling maints is completely justifiable, what if a drug trade is going down there? what if someone got themselves hurt? that kinda stuff. Besides, if security shouldn't be in maints then neither should anybody else be aside from engineering and such.

And about the more antags thing, I believe that it's unreasonable to always know that there's gonna be more, but think that it's completely fine to stay on code blue- after all, why would the syndicate hire only one agent? it wouldn't make much sense.

Bolting places? i'm fine with it to an extent- on code green? No, don't do that. Code blue? sure why not- it could help prevent break-ins into secure places. Realistic enough.

Again i see all these complaints as pretty restricting in some ways, NT has multiple known enemies, ensuring some easy safety tactics is completely realistic to me.

 

[Sk1Tz]

16 minutes ago, rb303 said:

Security is already tough enough, i don't like people punishing them like this. Security patrolling maints is completely justifiable, what if a drug trade is going down there? what if someone got themselves hurt? that kinda stuff. Besides, if security shouldn't be in maints then neither should anybody else be aside from engineering and such.

And about the more antags thing, I believe that it's unreasonable to always know that there's gonna be more, but think that it's completely fine to stay on code blue- after all, why would the syndicate hire only one agent? it wouldn't make much sense.

Bolting places? i'm fine with it to an extent- on code green? No, don't do that. Code blue? sure why not- it could help prevent break-ins into secure places. Realistic enough.

Again i see all these complaints as pretty restricting in some ways, NT has multiple known enemies, ensuring some easy safety tactics is completely realistic to me.

 

If there was a drug trade going on in the tunnels, or if someone gets hurt in there, sec should wait for someone to call them over on the radio. It's cheap otherwise.

[Benjaminfallout]

23 minutes ago, rb303 said:

Security is already tough enough, i don't like people punishing them like this. Security patrolling maints is completely justifiable, what if a drug trade is going down there? what if someone got themselves hurt? that kinda stuff. Besides, if security shouldn't be in maints then neither should anybody else be aside from engineering and such.

I was saying at round start. Like 12:02 on green.

[ZN23X]

I don't have a problem with officers patrolling anywhere early because its thier job. I do have a problem with them being inherently suspicious of people 4noraisin. If I run into someone when Im patrolling maint on green I just say hi to them, maybe try to have a friendly convo, n keep walking. I dont search or even examine them.

This gets me wordlessly killed regularly, as I've pointed out, there are assholes on both sides of this issue. The bad behavior on both sides promotes the bad behavior on the other side. A case of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Also as I previously said. Unsolvable problem. We have to live with it.

The most you can do is make sure that you yourself do not get sucked into the same bad habits. Be the change you want to see and others will follow suit. Thats all we can do. Its why I'll continue getting wordlessly killed when striking convos in maint. Its worth it for the times I don't get killed and it turns into something more.

Edited April 18, 2018 by ZN23X

[Rurik]

5 hours ago, Zciwomad said:

Security bragging about "there is always more antagonists" without evidence ? Force (literally FORCE) them to visit Psychiatrist. Their paranoid behaviour might be a first symptom of their inability to work there.

As rb303 mentioned, sec is tough and busy enough, they don't need to be forced into that.

 

4 hours ago, rb303 said:

And about the more antags thing, I believe that it's unreasonable to always know that there's gonna be more, but think that it's completely fine to stay on code blue- after all, why would the syndicate hire only one agent? it wouldn't make much sense.

I always assumed lore wise, that while sabotage is commonish in the corporate space world, there are still plenty of shifts were nothing goes wrong. In this line of thinking, perhaps the Syndicate didn't want to hire ten agents on a single station and create a big ruckus, drawing heat and raising the alert in nearby airspaces.  Perhaps they wanted it go quietly, discretely, and hired one agent to do a specific action on a specific day, while keeping the rest on ice till the perfect moment. Makes sense to me imo, but that's just how I treat that situation.

 

On 4/17/2018 at 3:03 PM, Benjaminfallout said:

Why did the suit sensors message talk about finding are mangled bodies?

All the more reason to shame it IC and not set your suit sensors, (And then have someone say your likely a antag since no sensors, had that happen a few times, was great)

 

On 4/17/2018 at 3:03 PM, Benjaminfallout said:

Why is Security going around maintenance on green at 12:02?

I was under the impression patrolling the station is their job, whats the issue with this?

 

8 hours ago, Sk1Tz said:

I mean, you're going to have this shit happen continuously. I cannot count how many times when a non-antag civilian goes into maintenance and starts gathering unneeded shit like grenade casings. Unless you're like a roboticist and need supplies for your bots, or something similar in that matter, basic civilians shouldn't be entering the damn tunnels...

They even go into the tools storage shed and start robbing the place of its tools. Why? You don't have a job in engineering. Why the hell are you equiping yourself a full set of tools that someone useful would need later down the road? Why you taking shit from the engineers' personal tool closet? You're not an engineer, why you in here? Why you taking shit from the closets, civs?

Perhaps they want to fix up a place in maint, and make it look nice, like old bar, and they don't want to wait two years for the HoP to get around to them. Or perhaps the HoP refuses to let them have access, so they want to fix it up anyways. Or maybe they want tools to be prepared for the gateway, or to go space exploring. Or, perhaps they just want more tools to break into places easier/be prepared. Even if it is the latter for the reasoning, I fail to see the issue with it. Its not HRP, and assistants stealing things is about all the action sec will get on extended rounds or when all the antags are wiped out (which happens more than I would like to admit). If anything, giving sec something to do on slow rounds is a good thing.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Rurik

[Miraviel]

On 4/17/2018 at 10:14 PM, shazbot194 said:

Just saying, from an RP standpoint, you should go to blue for like 5 minutes, then to green if nothing else happens, as it would be a little odd to go from 'EVERYONE PANIC' to 'All is good in this world'.

"Confirmed Code Red threats have been properly handled or subsided on their own. It is recommended that, after 15+ minutes on Code Red without any hostile activity, Code Blue be called"

The SOP recommends 15 minutes or more (I recommend 15 minutes sharp). Announcements are also often forgotten to be used to inform the crew - if you ever change back from Red to Blue, make sure you announce that all hostilities were subdued. Code Blue gives you the room for the "but wait, there is more!" type of officers because it still lets security do random searches and demanding entry to departments. (Even moreso, they can carry a lethal weapon on them.)

15 hours ago, ZN23X said:

The most you can do is make sure that you yourself do not get sucked into the same bad habits. Be the change you want to see and others will follow suit. Thats all we can do. Its why I'll continue getting wordlessly killed when striking convos in maint. Its worth it for the times I don't get killed and it turns into something more.

I want to agree with this but I don't know how much it actually helps. Most often I got laughed at in OOC after the round for being "naive", because I "thought there are no more antags on vamp+traitor" and so on. It gets tiring after some time because usually everybody just stays silent when people ridicule command/security or even worse, join it brainlessly. It's part of the server's culture. I might point it out that we are a medium-RP server and I acted as such - and my word might be taken into actual consideration because I have a shiny light blue font - but those with the regular OOC color, not so much and this is a problem. They'll be made fun of and being made fun of sucks, they shouldn't need to be in the staff to get heard.

You also can't really get the offenders bwoinked for this because rule 0 is mostly for player complaints and we don't have rules for maintaining the medium-level roleplay. And if there is no punishment, most of these people simply won't care. If a roleplaying antagonist meets a roleplaying victim/security, then it creates a really fun experience. If not, the roleplaying side will most likely lose at light speed (followed by a "lol I 1v1'd a cling").

10 hours ago, Rurik said:

I was under the impression patrolling the station is their job, whats the issue with this?

Maintenances are for engineering to get from A to B, it shouldn't be the first place to go when you are a security guard at the start of the shift. You said you believed there are plenty of shifts when nothing goes wrong - this applies to the maintenance-crawler security guards. Why would they go to somewhere that is unlikely to have problems when officers are needed elsewhere? There are 40+ crewmembers working in their respective departments, they might and they usually do need security to perform basic security duties - throw out people who trespass or commit petty theft for example. I cannot count how often security was called to cargo or medical because people trespassed but the officers were busy with hunting ghosts on green in the maintenances. They usually don't even respond to these calls because trespassing, eh, who cares? They should care, this is their job on green and blue.

And also because greytiders are generally annoying and security would make their own job easier if they brigged these guys. For one, it deters some of them from messing with the crew for the rest of the round. For two, antagonists tend to trespass and steal stuff. If security caught them before they bought any contraband items, they could release them with a record. Later when someone calls for help with said guy's name, security will know it's someone troublesome. They'll arrive prepared.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Miraviel

[Rurik]

32 minutes ago, Miraviel said:

Maintenances are for engineering to get from A to B, it shouldn't be the first place to go when you are a security guard at the start of the shift. You said you believed there are plenty of shifts when nothing goes wrong - this applies to the maintenance-crawler security guards. Why would they go to somewhere that is unlikely to have problems when officers are needed elsewhere? There are 40+ crewmembers working in their respective departments, they might and they usually do need security to perform basic security duties - throw out people who trespass or commit petty theft for example. I cannot count how often security was called to cargo or medical because people trespassed but the officers were busy with hunting ghosts on green in the maintenances. They usually don't even respond to these calls because trespassing, eh, who cares? They should care, this is their job on green and blue.

Ah, that makes bit more sense as to why people seem irritated over it. To be fair though, if a officer is patrolling maint on green while there are active calls for help from departments, that's the fault of the officer being deficient in prioritizing. On the other hand, if no active calls are out, said officer already did a sweep of the main station, and then begins to sweep maint, that's not so bad is it?

[ZN23X]

1 hour ago, Miraviel said:

I  want to agree with this but I don't know how much it actually helps. Most often I got laughed at in OOC after the round for being "naive", because I "thought there are no more antags on vamp+traitor" and so on. It gets tiring after some time because usually everybody just stays silent when people ridicule command/security or even worse, join it brainlessly. It's part of the server's culture. I might point it out that we are a medium-RP server and I acted as such - and my word might be taken into actual consideration because I have a shiny light blue font - but those with the regular OOC color, not so much and this is a problem. They'll be made fun of and being made fun of sucks, they shouldn't need to be in the staff to get heard.

I didn't say this was easy. I've personally been playing like this since long before I was part lf the staff. I don't think that necessarily makes people care about my opinion, to some players I'm essentially now the equivalent of one of thier parents or teachers who they don't care to listen to either. I also don't get insulted by some kid who validates thier existence through video games poking fun at me. I could try super hard n use every trick in the book kick ass if I wanted to as well. If they are dumb enough to think my IC ignorance or deficiencies aren't on purpose then it kinda shows where thier head is at.

Even if my actions only inspire one other person to try n make this game a little more interesting I find it to be worth it. Plus I just quite simply have fun playing this way. I'd be bored to tears and long gone by now if all I did was obsess over the games mechanics and winning.

Edited April 19, 2018 by ZN23X

[Miraviel]

3 hours ago, Rurik said:

Ah, that makes bit more sense as to why people seem irritated over it. To be fair though, if a officer is patrolling maint on green while there are active calls for help from departments, that's the fault of the officer being deficient in prioritizing. On the other hand, if no active calls are out, said officer already did a sweep of the main station, and then begins to sweep maint, that's not so bad is it?

Definitely not! OP (and I do so too) has an issue about officers rushing into the maintenance at roundstart. It's fair game for them to enter the maintenances I think, just don't set up a tent there and wait for the antags.

2 hours ago, ZN23X said:

I didn't say this was easy. I've personally been playing like this since long before I was part lf the staff. I don't think that necessarily makes people care about my opinion, to some players I'm essentially now the equivalent of one of thier parents or teachers who they don't care to listen to either. I also don't get insulted by some kid who validates thier existence through video games poking fun at me. I could try super hard n use every trick in the book kick ass if I wanted to as well. If they are dumb enough to think my IC ignorance or deficiencies aren't on purpose then it kinda shows where thier head is at.

Even if my actions only inspire one other person to try n make this game a little more interesting I find it to be worth it. Plus I just quite simply have fun playing this way. I'd be bored to tears and long gone by now if all I did was obsess over the games mechanics and winning.

That's a great mentality, I envy you (honestly). As for me, if I'm told a hundred times I suck, I mostly believe it. No wonders why I haven't touched security/command for a good while now...