make antags oocly valid if they attack someone

[Coldflame]

keep the ic rules on excessive force and ooc rule on validhunting, but don't bwoink people for dunking antags who start shit, make hostile antags valid oocly for sec even if non lethal options are there  (ic punishments still apply)

 

this takes all the "will i get banned" guesswork out of antag dealings, reduces admin workload, and lets situations go in more directions than the current rules allow 

[davidchan]

If you want tg rules go play on tg. 

[Coldflame]

21 minutes ago, davidchan said:

If you want tg rules go play on tg. 

that's not an argument

[ZN23X]

The more slack we cut the more players abuse it. It will not reduce admin workload it will just lead to more excessively abusive behavior that will still have to be addressed.

We already have a problem with security failing to discipline thier own for severely beating prisoners or illegal executions. If we allowed stuff like that to happen even MORE without admin intervention what posseses you to believe security will suddenly start being more responsible IC? We already rarely see officers brigged for assault when its appropriate or given perma for manslaughter or murder when they illegally execute someone or unnecessarily kill someone with excessive force. Honestly if these things WERE handled IC then admins wouldn't get involved. We would PREFER they are handled IC. THAT would reduce admin workload. 

If people are worrying if thier actions will possibly lead to them getting banned then it means the rules are serving thier purpose. They are there to make you think and be accountable for your actions.

Edited May 1, 2018 by ZN23X
Elaborating on current issues with sec

[davidchan]

7 minutes ago, Coldflame said:

that's not an argument

It is. Look at the tg community and look at the paradise community. They aren't in the same category. tg allows blatant killing of other players over minor inconveniences when either side won't back down, and antags almost always go full lethal since they know they are going to be permanently removed from a round if caught. Their rules allow and practically encourage shitty behavior with no RP, and the admins have to come up with shitty excuses why to ban someone who is clearly making the server less fun for other people, just look at their appeals forum.

I don't agree with all of paradise's rules but they serve a purpose and they send a clear signal from the staff to the community on how behavior, rp and gameplay is acceptable. Antags are still people on paradise, only the most violent and dangerous antags are killed while those that can be safely contained and transported back to CC for debriefing are captured and kept alive because ICly they are more valuable to NT if the info they possess can be extracted. Giving sec/crew the right to kill any outed antag is only going to increase valid hunting behavior while making RP drop in quality and frequency

[tiredbum]

2 hours ago, davidchan said:

It is. Look at the tg community and look at the paradise community. They aren't in the same category. tg allows blatant killing of other players over minor inconveniences when either side won't back down, and antags almost always go full lethal since they know they are going to be permanently removed from a round if caught. Their rules allow and practically encourage shitty behavior with no RP, and the admins have to come up with shitty excuses why to ban someone who is clearly making the server less fun for other people, just look at their appeals forum.

I don't agree with all of paradise's rules but they serve a purpose and they send a clear signal from the staff to the community on how behavior, rp and gameplay is acceptable. Antags are still people on paradise, only the most violent and dangerous antags are killed while those that can be safely contained and transported back to CC for debriefing are captured and kept alive because ICly they are more valuable to NT if the info they possess can be extracted. Giving sec/crew the right to kill any outed antag is only going to increase valid hunting behavior while making RP drop in quality and frequency

I mean, while I agree with this not turning into tg, what you say about antags is simply not true. It is EXTREMELY rare for a caught antag to not be executed, and if you're argument is that "It's a POSSIBILITY they won't be killed" then that is pretty weak

[ZN23X]

20 minutes ago, tiredbum said:

It is EXTREMELY rare for a caught antag to not be executed, and if you're argument is that "It's a POSSIBILITY they won't be killed" then that is pretty weak

You literally aren't supposed to be killed as an antag unless you are KOS for being a known dangerous killer or are uncobtainable (changeling, full powered vamp, etc).

Security frequently puts antags who don't fall under that description in perma. I've played hundreds upon hundreds of hours in security and I've definitely seen security perma far more antags than they've killed, so saying they just kill most antags is entirely false.

[davidchan]

29 minutes ago, tiredbum said:

I mean, while I agree with this not turning into tg, what you say about antags is simply not true. It is EXTREMELY rare for a caught antag to not be executed, and if you're argument is that "It's a POSSIBILITY they won't be killed" then that is pretty weak

Re-read space law. Murder and Mutiny are the only two crimes Security may legally execute a prisoner over, and they still need the explicit approval from the Captain or Magistrate to carry out that execution. EoC was removed from space law a long time ago

 

Quote

If the Enemy of the Corporation has not committed any Capital Crimes (see below), they are to be placed in Permanent Imprisonment (Permabrig/Solitary/Labor Camp). Otherwise, Execution is permitted, at the discretion of the Magistrate. If no Magistrate has been assigned, or is otherwise unable to authorize an execution, the Captain may authorize execution in accordance to Legal Standard Operating Procedure. Possession of Contraband alone is not enough to warrant an execution.

Shadowlings, Changelings, Hostile Wizards and Fully Powered Vampires are an exception to this, but only if there is no real means to contain them or non-lethally detain them.  Antags that do fight back with lethal force can be killed as per SOP though it's still frowned upon if there are other viable options (cultist and thralls can be deconverted, for example.)

[Miraviel]

@davidchan I'm afraid your last post is very confusing with saying EOC is not a thing then quoting a very small section of the "EOC" part of Space Law, then adding exceptions which just in fact reinforces the point you are arguing against.

To clear it up: EOC is still there and there are a lot of reasons to kill an antagonist, such as:

- Hatched shadowling: kill on sight
- Nuclear operative: kill on sight
- Confirmed changeling: kill on sight
- Wizard/Apprentices: kill on sight (as it is basically a meme round)

This leaves us with the following antagoists:

- Vampires: if they are powered - not necessarily fully powered, just simply powered - security can deem them uncontainable, execution/exilement
- Cultists & Thralls: unless they go murderboney, they have to be deconverted; if they go murderboney on a large scale and/or in massive numbers, lethal force is authorized (which is often forgotten...)
- Traitors: this is probably the only antagonist you referred to, yes, they need to commit a capital crime to get executed/exiled, otherwise they have to be put into perma

@Coldflame Seeing how many antagonists have to be or can be instantly killed by the law - and most of them don't even reach the execution chamber, just get killed on sight then tagged as DNR - I don't think we need any more encouragement of permamently eliminating antagonists from the round.

If everyone was allowed to subdue antagonists, why would NT hire a security department? And more importantly, what would a round become? The first time a changeling would kidnap an engineer, his fellow engineers would vent the hell out of that maintenance and/or electrify the airlock, zap the guy, then bust in with three more Grey McTiders and fireaxe the changeling to death. Then we all sit for 2 more hours because the other changeling is probably new and not ready to face 80 crewmembers. Keep "medium roleplay" in mind. If you see a vampire kidnapping your colleague, you should be terrified. Rules allow you to rescue someone if they are in immediate danger, which you would probably do in real life (if someone tried to kidnap your friend) but actively seeking out a psychopath? I doubt that.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Miraviel

[davidchan]

@Miraviel For the old guard, EOC used to be an actual crime in and of itself, simply being part of an organization opposed to NT in some way was justification for execution. Now it's not a crime but a category of suspects. Nuke ops aren't necessarily KoS either, given their implants detonate upon death and there is (or was) and end of round bonus points for capturing Operatives alive and getting them on the shuttle.

[ZN23X]

Related note: If anyone sees security or is a victim of sec using excessive force unnecessarily, ahelp it...

Long before I became an admin, another admin told me "While we are capable of seeing everything, we are not omnipresent. Report stuff in case we missed it."

I like to echo this cuz its true. We can't correct bad behavior if we are unaware of it. There is ALOT going on every round that we need to try to keep an eye on.

[Miraviel]

14 hours ago, davidchan said:

@Miraviel For the old guard, EOC used to be an actual crime in and of itself, simply being part of an organization opposed to NT in some way was justification for execution. Now it's not a crime but a category of suspects. Nuke ops aren't necessarily KoS either, given their implants detonate upon death and there is (or was) and end of round bonus points for capturing Operatives alive and getting them on the shuttle.

Ah, I see.

While capturing nuke ops does sound challenging, never in the last year I've seen any being captured. Even if they are downed, crewmembers beat them to death.

There is no more "capturing the ops" bonus points anymore. (However, there is a Darwin Award version which is hilarious.)

Edited May 2, 2018 by Miraviel

[EvadableMoxie]

On 5/1/2018 at 2:57 AM, Coldflame said:

this takes all the "will i get banned" guesswork out of antag dealings, reduces admin workload, and lets situations go in more directions than the current rules allow 

It wouldn't, though. 

If an antag is using lethal weaponry against someone, then lethal force is automatically authorized as per space law under the 'armed and dangerous' clause.  It is stated that is always preferable to bring them in alive, but it's not required.

Which means the only effect this would have is on those using non-lethal weapons (And even those are technically part of armed and dangerous too), and I don't feel those should automatically be met with lethal force. You just don't know if the clown threw a PDA in front of someone with the intent to fart in their face and run off, or intent to cuff them and drag them to maint to be murdered. Letting sec just adopt a 'kill 'em all' attitude is probably not healthy.

I do agree the rules can be vague, especially for antags and security, but this isn't a good way to adress the issue in my opinion. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by EvadableMoxie

[tiredbum]

I mean, I started playing ss13 at the beginning of 2017, so I can understand that maybe I don't have enough experience to stand on my point. But from my own personal experience, I have very rarely seen an antag if caught come out alive on the escape shuttle or rotting in perma. Again, you can SAY that that shouldn't be the case, but in practice it just doesn't hold up.

[necaladun]

Someone saying "Person X is a traitor and punched me once" should not give everyone the all clear to murder them. If you want lynch mobs chasing "valids" then other stations are a better bet. 

[Normalyman]

54 minutes ago, tiredbum said:

I mean, I started playing ss13 at the beginning of 2017, so I can understand that maybe I don't have enough experience to stand on my point. But from my own personal experience, I have very rarely seen an antag if caught come out alive on the escape shuttle or rotting in perma. Again, you can SAY that that shouldn't be the case, but in practice it just doesn't hold up.

Mhmm I have no idea with which security teams you play then. Normally every caught antag (if containable) will be put in perma. Of course execution or borging is also an option but that rarely happens.

Then again you must consider what the antag does after his capture, if he tries to escape over and over again or if it comes out that he has implants or powers that make him uncontainable, the only option you have is to kill him. 

I've been captured as antag every time without any exceptions and I was never murdered or executed. Most of the time I ended up in perma and sometimes I even got exiled, which was hilarious cause it was the beach gateway and I made my bar there.

Maybe it's due to the times of day you play or something else but perma has at least 2-3 prisoners each round. (Nukie, changeling or similar rounds not included)

[WingedYordle]

If Standard of Procedures was followed more closely...

Security does their own thing and ignore what current alert status it is. There are steps to follow for each colour.

Nevermind who is marked as kill on sight depending on the round, capital crime punishment is far more then just perma or execution. There is also throwing them into gateway or mining which is rarely used. 

Everyone is out to kill, doesn't matter what you are or what you do. Sadly eliminates the little roleplay Paradise all ready has.

The eliminate this OOC IC bull just to pretty much valid hunt due to their actions they commited is crap and the rules should remain the same. Let security to their job, get security more on SoP, try roleplaying slightly more.

Wolf out