Security Rework

[Norwest]

 

Basic issue: Security is often understaffed, severely enough that it's a major topic of concern. The statistics are pretty clear: most people just don't find Security a fun enough job to play.

 

General causes:

A. Overpopulation: The server routinely hits over 120 players, with the map and game balanced for closer to ~50 player size. The population issue leads to moments like this, where the station's regular jobs are rapidly filled, and anyone hoping to join is left to either ghost, go as an assistant, or salt about it on Reddit. Perhaps more pertinent, though, it also leads to a ridiculously large Assistant playercount with little productive work to do (i.e. greytiding galore), and:

B. Excessive antagonist numbers: Most game modes assign antags based on the total number of players, not the total number of Security players. Combined with the overpopulation problem, this can lead to a fairly ridiculous Sec-antag imbalance once the server reaches 80+ players as it commonly does. I've often seen hilarious imbalances where antagonists like changelings, vampires, or shadowlings (who are designed to reliably win or tie a 1v1 confrontations) outnumbering Sec members at roundstart. Furthermore:

C. General overwork: Between prisoner processing, greytiders, responding to crew calls for "SEC DORMS" and the like, or simple Public Relations requirements (manning the front desk, responding to accusations of Sec misbehavior, etc), there are far too many tasks for the average Sec Officer to handle at once.

D. Being "valid:" Regular Security Officers are seen as valid targets for antagonists, which means that they're frequently attacked, killed, and taken out of the round (husked, spaced, decapitated, etc.). This is obviously fairly un-fun for the officer getting valid-ed in this fashion, which contributes to the Sec staffing issue. The two most common reasons for this include reducing Sec numbers, and taking their gear.

E. Escalation and capability gaps: Security Officers rarely "level up" throughout a round, despite there being plenty of legal methods for doing so. Few of them get implant/augment surgery, for instance, and the average officer rarely gets even basic equipment like holsters. Much of this is due to the aforementioned overwork, as there's always something else requiring their attention. However, much of this is also due to:

F. Difficulty communicating and cooperating: There's a significant lack of cooperation between different departments, and mechanically, there are few methods of encouraging that cooperation short of "Heads of Staff chatting on private Command comms." Scientists, Botanists, Engineers, and Cargo techs all lack access to Security comms and areas, and vice versa, resulting in different departments generally heading off to do their own thing (Cargonia, Engistan-Atmosia, Medistan, Scientopia, etc.).

G. A difficult learning curve: There's no "learner's course" for Security, and no way for a newbie to easily mark themselves as one without drawing trouble down on their own head. This is a problem in other jobs, of course, but the high requirements placed on Sec makes this much more notable, and more of a barrier to entry for prospective members.

Conclusion: There are some long-standing problems like the issue of Security Officers being whacked for their loot or the learning curve for the job, but the more recent issue is simply the overwhelming playerbase size and the attendant issues which go along with it.

 

Goals:

Overall: Mechanically encourage more-positive player interactions involving Security by lowering the demand on individual players, allowing for more-casual participation, and reducing the negative consequences involved with the role. Tl;dr make Security more fun to play.

A. Balance the Sec-antag numbers so that Security isn't completely overwhelmed by the threat of the day.

B. Add in specialized Sec roles to help with the overwork (and also let people play those specific elements of Sec without getting swept up in the general antagonist-hunt).

C. Try to keep Sec players from being taken out of the game quite as easily.

D. Give new players more ways to "stretch their legs" by either indicating they're a newbie, or by playing a Security role which is less-intense than the 'frontline' ones.

 

Game-mechanics changes:

A. The "AutoTraitor" approach: Currently, the AutoTraitor gamemode balances antagonists with Security Officers, the legitimate antag-hunters. New traitors are generated either from existing players or from new arrivals depending on the number of Sec players in the round, to keep from overwhelming them. I'd like to see this mechanic extended to other antags (changelings, vampires, and shadowlings in particular) to keep Security from being overwhelmed from the get-go.

B. Job auto-availability: As it stands, the only way for new jobs to appear in-game is via someone with ID Modification access (i.e. the Captain or HoP) mechanically adding new job slots, or by demoting existing players. The job-slot mechanic is intentionally slowed to a rate of one modification per minute, to prevent ridiculous imbalances, but this leads to the situation above where there simply are no jobs available whatsoever. In order to head off some of the issue of "too little work" and the attendant strain on Sec, I'd like to see the following jobs automatically increase:

           -Every ten new players above 50 (i.e. 60, 70, 80, etc.), one new job slot for each of the following: Station Engineer, Security Officer, Scientist, Medical Doctor, Constable (see below)

          -Every twenty new players above 60 (i.e. 80, 100, 120), one new job slot for: Botanist, Atmos Tech, Roboticist, Shaft Miner, Cargo Technician, Janitor, Forensics Technician (i.e. Detective, but starts with a Forensics Scanner)

          -Every thirty new players above 60 (i.e. 90, 120), one new job slot for: Chef, Dispatcher (see below)

 

New jobs:

1. Constable: A lower-intensity Security role with the duty of handling the non-antag-focused portion of Security. Expected to spend a lot of time around the Bar corralling drunks and greytiders.

2. Dispatcher: A lower-intensity Security role with the duty of watching station cameras and getting officers to where they need to be. Also positioned to assist with processing and prisoners as needed.

3. Armorer: A Science role, but starts with a mindshield and access to Sec comms. Expected to help gear up the Sec team over the course of a shift.

Spoiler

Constable:

-Two Constable positions at roundstart, with additional positions auto-increasing as player population increases (can be manually increased).

-Unlocks after 5-10 days of play (regular officers unlock after 30, if I remember correctly)

-Starting Access: Maintenance, Brig, Prison Wing, Holding Cells. Does NOT have Security or Armory access

-Starting Equipment: Constable Uniform (standard 10% melee defense), black gloves, body armor, HUDSunglasses, a Corporate Officer hat, and a Security headset. Backpack contains: a flash, pepperspray, first-aid kit, a 'Mission Briefing' paper (see below), and a copy of Security SOP. (The hat is meant to provide a visual difference between Constables and Officers, and the SOP and first-aid kit are meant to reinforce the Constable's 'Public Safety' role). Does NOT start with a tazer, stunbaton, or handcuffs (to emphasize their less-violent role, to limit the harm a shitty Constable can do, and to make them less of a target for antags).

-Starting Location: Bar (to reinforce their 'public safety' role). If possible, a separate 'Constable Ready Room' near the Bar area would also be handy.

-Starting Text: 'You are the Constable. Your job is to serve and protect the station crew.'

-Starts with a paper in their backpack (labeled 'Constable Mission Briefing'): "

[logo][br][br]Mission Briefing: Constable[br]

[br]All right, officer, time to earn that pay. Remember:[br]-As a Constable, you're out there to keep the crew safe. Let the Security Officers chase down the bad guys; your job is to keep the peace.[br]-Work with the crew when you can, even when they're breaking the law. Just saying 'please' can make arrests a lot easier for you.[br]-When someone's causing trouble and won't come in quietly, set their criminal status to *Arrest* and let the Securitron robots take them down. Better that they get hit than you![br]-Read up on Space Law and Security SOP (Standard Operating Procedure), and do your best to follow it. If you have questions about it, don't be afraid to ask IA (Internal Affairs), the Magistrate, or your boss the Head of Security for help.[br][br]Good luck out there, and stay safe! I want you coming home happy, not in a bodybag.[br][br]John Smith, Field Training Officer"  (This paper is meant to give a little guidance for someone who's brand-new to the job, rather than just dumping them in with no prompting)

---

Armorer:

-One Armorer position (unique, cannot be increased). Karma-locked, 30 points. Member of Science, answers to the RD.

-Starting Access: Maintenance, Brig, Science, R&D, Toxins, Xenobiology. Does NOT have Armory, Security, or Robotics access (the lack of Armory access helps keep the Warden relevant, and makes the Armorer less of a loot-pinata target, since they'll be outside of the Brig so often)

-Starting Equipment: Science uniform, Security headset, tool-belt with basic tools. (To emphasize their gear-focused role) Does NOT start with a tazer or handcuffs (to emphasize that they aren't supposed to be making arrests)

-Starting Location: R&D or Toxins

-Starting Text: 'You are the Armorer. Your job is to assist the station's Security team by maintaining, repairing, and improving their equipment.'

---

Security Dispatcher:

-One Dispatcher at roundstart, with more depending on station population. Can be manually increased.

-Starting Access: Maintenance, Brig, Security, Prison Wing

-Starting Equipment: Dispatcher's Uniform (already exists, just rarely used), body armor, Security beret, Security headset, HUDSunglasses. Does NOT start with a tazer or handcuffs (to emphasize that they aren't supposed to be making arrests)

-Starting Location: Security Briefing Room

-Starting text: 'You are the Security Dispatcher. Your job is to monitor the station's Security team, and to help them get where they're needed.'

 

New SOPs:

Constable - Code Green:

1. Constables are required to state the reasons behind an arrest before any further action is taken. Exception is made if the suspect refuses to stop;

2. Constables must attempt to bring all suspects or witnesses to the Brig without handcuffing or incapacitating them. Should the suspect not cooperate, the Constable should change the suspect's arrest status to *Arrest* and alert the station's Security team;

3. The Constable shall not attempt to subdue an uncooperative suspect on their own. If attacked, the Constable is expected to retreat and call for backup;

4. Constables are permitted to carry a flash, a flashbang, and a can of pepperspray;

5. Constables may not demand access to the interior of other Departments during routine patrols. Exception is made if the Constable is responding to an emergency;

6. Constables are not permitted to have weapons drawn during regular patrols;

7. Constables are permitted to conduct searches, provided there is reasonable evidence/suspicion that the person in question has committed a crime. Any further searches require a warrant from the Head of Security, Captain or Magistrate;

8. Lethal Force is not authorized unless there is a direct threat to the station's integrity or the Constable's life.

Constable - Code Blue:

1. Guidelines 1, 2, 4 and 8 are carried over from Code Green;

2. Constables are permitted to carry non-lethal equipment such as a tazer, stunbaton and handcuffs, at the discretion of the Warden or Head of Security. Lethal weapons are allowed only during severe emergencies, such as a 'Blob' organism outbreak or attack by a Syndicate strike team;

3. Constables are permitted to attempt to subdue uncooperative suspects on their own, although this is not recommended;

4. Constables may demand entry to specific Departments during regular patrols;

5. Constables may randomly search crewmembers, but are not allowed to apply any degree of force unless said crewmember acts overtly hostile. Crew who refuse to be searched may be stunned and cuffed for the search;

6. Constables are permitted to leave prisoners bucklecuffed should they act hostile.

Constable - Code Red:

1. Guidelines 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 are carried over from Code Blue;

2. Constables may arrest crewmembers with no stated reason if there is evidence they are involved in criminal activities;

3. During a Code Red, crewmembers must remain in their respective departments (Civilians are to remain in the Bar, Chapel, or Departures). Constables may forcefully relocate crewmembers to their respective Departments if necessary.

 

(The Constable SOP is taken from the Security Officer SOP, just with a greater focus on non-violent action. Let me know if you think anything should be revised here)

 

Armorer - Code Green:

1. The Armorer may not perform arrests, process prisoners, or perform searches under any circumstances;

2. The Armorer may carry a flash and a can of pepperspray;

3. The Armorer shall work to maintain, repair, and improve existing Security equipment. However, all new lethal weaponry shall be immediately transported to the Armory for secure storage, and may not be carried on the Armorer's person. Exception is made for extreme circumstances, such as a 'Blob' organism outbreak or attack by a Syndicate strike team;

4. The Armorer may manufacture implants and augments for use by Security personnel. However, installation of these implants shall be voluntary, and performed by the Brig Physician (if available);

Armorer - Code Blue:

1. Guidelines 1, 3, and 4 carry over from Code Green.

2. In addition to their existing tools, the Armorer may carry a tazer for self-defense.

Armorer - Code Red:

1. All guidelines carry over from Code Blue.

(Goes under the Science SOP)

---

Dispatcher - Code Green:

1. The Security Dispatcher may not perform arrests, process prisoners, or perform searches unless given specific permission by the Head of Security or Warden. Exception is made if there are no active Officers or Warden;

2. The Dispatcher may not unholster their weapons unless a clear and present danger to their life is present;

3. The Dispatcher may carry a flash, a flashbang, and a can of pepperspray. However, they are not to use these weapons except in self-defense. Exception is made for extreme circumstances, such as a 'Blob' organism outbreak or attack by a Syndicate strike team;

4. The Dispatcher shall monitor the station's Security personnel, and may direct them to where they are most needed. However, the Dispatcher does not outrank any other member of the Security team, and should conduct themselves accordingly;

5. The Dispatcher is expected to assist the Warden in updating and maintaining arrest records.

Dispatcher - Code Blue:

1. Guidelines 1, 4, and 5 carry over from Code Green.

2. The Dispatcher may unholster their weapons as needed, although this is not recommended.

3. In addition to their existing tools, the Dispatcher may carry a stunbaton and tazer as available.

Armorer - Code Red:

1. Guidelines 2 and 3 carry over from Code Green.

2. The Dispatcher may carry lethal weapons, at the discretion of the Head of Security.

 

Notes: The Constable is a role for either newbies (unlocks sooner, fewer responsibilities) or someone looking to play the non-violent side of Sec (fewer responsibilities). Although you can still play the role as a regular officer if you want, it's meant to let you play as the CSO/SRO archetype without forcing you into the "Sec vs. antag" shenanigans which happen most shifts. Much like the 'Global Antag Candidacy' button we have now, if you want to play Sec without having to 1v1 a vampire in Maint, go play a Constable and smoke a fat blunt with the Botanists before telling greytiders to 'just chill, man.'

By contrast, the Armorer is meant to let Sec 'scale' up as the shift goes on, by providing a mindshielded Scientist who can be trusted with Sec comms from roundstart. This is meant to keep Sec Officers from being as horribly outgunned by the usual AEG/teleshield/meth-using Science traitors who could otherwise kill the shit out of them with little effort. The job is meant for the mad-scientist sort of player: you're downright expected to make cool toys, deliver cool augments to the BrigPhys to keep 'em from getting bored, and are trusted enough by Sec that they'll actually let you put cool chem implants in their teeth.

The Dispatcher is a role for helping minimize the amount of chaos inherent with Sec: their job is to watch cameras religiously, update records, and to get officers to where they're supposed to be. Although the Warden can help with this, ultimately the Warden has too many plates to juggle at once: processing prisoners, distributing gear, checking in with perma'd prisoners, etc etc etc. The Dispatcher is effectively a second (or third, or fourth) Warden who'll be watching dem cameras, updating dem records, and generally keeping the (un-fun) chaos to a dull roar rather than a full crescendo.

 

Tweaks to existing jobs:

Spoiler

Security Officer:

-Number of officers to scale with population. With the AutoTraitor mechanic, this'll allow more antagonists as well as Officers, which should keep the game interesting.

Detective:

-Adds additional 'Forensic Technicians' to scale with player count: one Forensic Tech at 80, one at 100, another at 120, etc. The Forensic Technician role does NOT open at roundstart (not enough crimes immediately to justify 'em), but becomes available at 15 minutes into the game for new-spawning players depending on the player count.

-Forensic Technicians have the same rank and access as the Detective, and follow the same SOP.

-Forensic Technicians start with the Forensic Tech uniform, body armor, a Security beret, a Sec headset, sunglasses, a tazer, a flash, a telebaton, a forensic scanner, an evidence bag box, a pair of handcuffs, and a universal recorder. This should give 'em enough to hit the ground running.

Notes: This should help the Forensics role scale with the number of players, to keep the Detective from getting overwhelmed with 100+ players running around and causing trouble all at once. It should also let more players try the Forensics side of Sec, which is otherwise relatively inaccessible with only one Detective per game.

Head of Security:

-Karma-locked, 5 points.

Notes: This relatively minimal lock should help keep most absolute gobshits from playing the job, given how critical the HoS is to a good Sec team.

As before, these additions are primarily meant to scale the Sec team up with the total playercount per game. One Detective is definitely enough for a 40-person game, but when there's a good 115 players running around, suddenly they're a little overwhelmed. These tweaks are meant to minimize the general chaos going on; they won't prevent people from being dipshits, but they'll minimize the effect of the 'bad apple' sort of rank-and-file Sec players by increasing the numbers to compensate.

 

New antag role:

Spoiler

Hooligan:

-Starting numbers: based on # of starting Constables. 1:1 hooligan:Constable ratio, +/-1.

-Starting role: Any EXCEPT for Heads or mindshielded personnel

-Starting equipment: N/A

-Starting text: 'You are the Hooligan. You are seeking to accomplish a criminal goal through underhanded means. [br][small]Note: You are NOT allowed to kill or otherwise completely end other players' rounds. Your job as an antagonist is to make the round a little more interesting. When in doubt, type 'adminhelp' to ask if something you plan on doing is OK.[/small]'

-Starting objectives are one of the following:

1. You want to get rich. Amass at least [X] amount in credits. (This is meant to encourage petty theft and similar criminal activity)

2. You want a particularly hard-to-get item. Acquire [Y] restricted item: a TYRANT AI module (Scientists and Roboticists excluded), a combat shotgun (Cargo Techs and the QM excluded), an Atmospherics Firesuit (Engineers and Atmos Techs excluded), etc etc etc. (This is meant to encourage black-market trading, racketeering, and similar activities)

3. You've got a grudge. Ensure that Person [Z] is arrested/demoted/etc. (Not as sure about this one, since it could be taken as license to grief, but I figure I should mention it anyway)

4. You're a little crazy. [Insert Abductor-victim objective here, i.e. 'find your lover on the station,' 'amass corpses,' etc.]

Notes: The goal here is to provide a decent number of low-level antagonists who're causing minor, but measurable, amounts of trouble. This is meant to provide license to perform a little griefing, but less 'Maint murderboning' and more 'steal someone's ID to drain their bank account' and the like. This could be expanded with basic gear that could be purchased with in-game cash (insulated gloves, etc.) to provide an incentive for more low-level crime. While that might seem a bit counterproductive, I think Security would be more enjoyable if their targets weren't always well-powered antagonists and were sometimes just mundane opponents like a greytider mugging someone for cash.

 

Gear changes:

Spoiler

Security HUDs: No longer able to update Sec statuses; updating someone's arrest record will require a dedicated console. This should keep antags from being able to rapidly remove their arrest status, and force them to avoid any place with Security 'bots in it. On the flipside, this'll also make Security checkpoints important places for both Seccies and antags, since they'll have a records console there.

Security bowman headsets: Encryption keys no longer able to be removed, and Security headsets start with a video camera which can't be deactivated (idea shamelessly stolen from Colonial Marines. Antags can still steal the headset if they want, but it'll open them up to being tracked wherever they go. Additionally, it'll let Dispatchers watch cams much more closely, even when Sec Officers are running around Maint.

POSSIBLE update to stunbatons: only usable by someone with a mindshield, a la the /tg/ mindshield firing pins. This would let Constables carry 'em more safely, since they couldn't be easily stripped and used against them by greytiders. At the same time, I'd like to avoid giving all the advantages to Sec, and this seems like it might be a step too far. Thoughts?

Note: The goals here are to make Officers less likely to be attacked in the first place, and more likely to come home alive. With a camera active on them 24/7 and Dispatchers watching those cams, it's harder to just whisk away an Officer for a quick murder. On the flipside, between their HUDs being read-only and their headsets being a dangerous item to carry around, looting them for gear becomes a much less attractive plan. Should an Officer pursue an antag 1v1 into the middle of Maint, then they're still liable to get cryostung/glared/etc. and taken down quickly, of course, but it'll increase the odds of their body being recovered and the player not getting ejected from the game.

 

Quality-of-life changes:

A. The "Security Cadet" name: Much like an Engineer can call themselves an "Electrician," I'd like Sec Officers to be able to name themselves "Security Cadets" or the like. This would let a newbie announce themselves as one in a mechanically-simple fashion, without any changes in the gear or access they receive in the process. (I'd also love to see that for other jobs, but Sec has perhaps the worst learning curve, so I figure that'd be the best place to start)

B. An "Inspect" arrest status: The current standard arrest statuses are *Arrest*, Incarcerated, Paroled, or Released. This is all well and good for antag-hunting, but when dealing with Code Green-level issues like "Grey McTide might have made a stunprod, please check his pack," there's no way to mark someone for arrest without also sic'ing the bots on them. I'd like to bring someone in quietly like SOP demands, but if they go by Beepsky or an ED-209 with an *Arrest* status active, they're heading to the Brig in cuffs whether I want it or not. A yellow "Inspect" status would mean "arrest this person, but do it nicely," and work in conjunction with the standard one.

 

 

Conclusion:

This is a lot to read through, and I apologize for the length. At the same time, I think that the lack of Security players is due in large part to the job simply being unenjoyable, and I'd like to see the job made more fun rather than just focusing on the antag greentext rate. If you'd like to add to this* or suggest a rework, please keep that in mind. I'd like to see some means of rewarding success on Sec's part aside from just redtext (some way of rating how safe they kept the station...?), for instance, so if anyone's got an idea of how to implement that, I'm all ears.

 

 

 

*Slith-Skaar had suggested a rework of the X-Ray gene and implant to make it less ridiculously effective, for instance. This'd let antags get away more easily from Sec and in turn make the Detective's and Dispatchers' jobs more valuable in catching them, which I think is all-around a good idea.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Norwest

[Pewtershmitz]

Honestly, this was one of the best critics Security . I fulheartedly support this. 
This even has a fucking SoP.

[BottomQuark]

Ok so. Let me talk about roles:

1. Constable
I don't see any real reason to make another role for it, I personally as security officer prefer handling greytides than hunting antags. But why not make it alt-title for Security Officer, that would work the same as Medical Doctor and Surgeon, and it works fine in medbay.

2. Dispatcher
I'm not so sure about that one, I don't have anything against that, but do we need it? Watching cameras all the time might and propably will be boring, it sounds more like Warden's/Detective's job in free time.

3. Armorer
Someone suggested to make "Brig Technician/Brig Engineer" role here, and it basicly got denied ((even if I love the idea)). If Armorer would be a thing, I'd combine these 2 roles ((Brig tech+Armorer in one. I still love the idea of Brig Technician, even if I understand why idea was denied))

4. Detective
More than dispatcher, I'd like to see 1 additional det slot at the start of the round, and making detectives watch camera in free time ((Maybe alt-title Dispatcher?))

About "Job auto-availability", that's good idea, but I'd limit that just to general occupations like Medical Doctor/Scientist/Engineer/Security Officer/Botanist/Janitor

About "Difficulty communicating and cooperating" From what you said, you focused on inter-department communication. For me solution is to auto-assign officers to department and giving them additional radio channel. From what I know para used to have something like that, I'm not sure. 

[Pennwick]

Personally I feel the Constable, Dispatcher, and Armorer are adding too much complexity.

The constable is only needed if you add in the Hooligans and I personally feel like they're a bad idea. If they are implemented it should probably be entirely separate decision.

The dispatcher I have a lot of issue with. Who keeps an eye out, co-ordinates officers and helps with processing when needed? THE HEAD OF SECURITY. This is kinda what the head should be doing, not acting as a Sec Officer+, you're the head of the department, you're supposed to be delegating, not rushing in with your special gun and coat.

The Armorer stepping over a lot of lines that shouldn't be. Its kind of a 'security takes what it needs' thing that I sometimes worry about with the brig doctor. RnD is usually happy to print out whatever you need if you send a PDA message to the right person or get them to notice the Requests console. The issue is that you don't know who's the RnD guy and the console is almost always ignored but if science gets the message they're usually happy to provide. Delivering is a bit of an issue but they're usually willing to take a few minutes to drag you a locker of stuff. Or you could try to get Cargo to schedule a MULE pickup but getting a tech who knows how to do that is pretty rare.

If you wanted to add someone to the Brig roster I'd make it an Assistant Warden or a Brig Officer. Full SO access but not supposed to carry a gun or baton. Their job is to help with processing, watch the prisoners and attend to their needs, keep the records nice and tidy, go check with RnD for potential upgrades, and if time permits, watch the cameras. It'd take some pressure off the Warden and give a more laid back option to security types who want a round off from "catchin' the antags".

[Kyet]

You make some good points:

• We lack enough job slots to handle our population.
• Having more game modes that scale based on sec pop, rather than having static numbers, might help.
• Job auto-scaling would help too.
• There's been a lot of people bringing up 'sec cadets' for many different reasons over the years. Perhaps it is time to give them a try.

However, there are several issues with what you propose:

• You're conflating a lot of problems together. You might have more luck trying to tackle them separately. Getting consensus about what to do in tackling even ONE of these areas would be a challenge.
• There are some proposals in here which are just outright not viable. For example, the idea of a 'sec armorer'. It would drastically change game balance. Even more than brig phys, and brig phys is already disliked by some people because its being used in a way far more sec-favorable than intended. It was intended to allow a medic to treat prisoners, but it gets used as sec's personal medic and excuse to never visit medbay. Hooligans are just greytide... but worse. We get enough chaos from greytide as is, we don't want to legitimize it.
• These ideas are not prioritized. There so much here that realistically, we can't implement all of this at once even if we did agree with it all (which many won't). Instead of throwing out every possible idea, pick the... two or so ideas you think would help most, try to build consensus around those. Once they're merged, then look to iterate and improve on them.

Edited May 7, 2018 by tzo

[NoWolfie]

I really would like to see Constable role. I'm scared to try security, because there is so much to know, the responisiblity is huge, risk of ruining fun for other players is huge, also incompetence will be present, which will annoy veteran sec players. It just seems like too much of stuff to worry about, to the point it's not fun, not even considering antag threats.

With that role i can be shit while noone expects anything of me which would be amazing to get feel for security department.

As for hooligans, seems like amazing idea so people can actually do something fun once in a while without being afraid of getting bwoinked

Edited May 7, 2018 by NoWolfie

[McRamon]

hooligans or "minor antags" idea is something i was thinking for a long time, i think this one is the best option to balance antag-security interactions.

Less lethal antags and more minor antags might lower the death ratio of security but... i still see one problem with it, most of the time it is not 8 vamps who murder all security staff but one robust powergaming palyer. Doesnt matter if it is 8 vamps or 4 vamps + 4 hooligans, anyway if that one special player will gets antag, he will ruin the round. I think admins, if they see a veteran player often uses loud massmurder antag style, they should talk to him and guide to a less lethal playstile.

 

Another possible idea to balance the thing is adding antag vs antag interactions i was talking about from time to time, like a syndicate agent with cult items stealing objectives, vampires fighting changelings other for territory or maybe even wizard with mission to kill shadowlings. This might lead to interesting security-antag interactions of working together against a more powerful threat 

[Norwest]

16 hours ago, BottomQuark said:

Ok so. Let me talk about roles:

1. Constable
I don't see any real reason to make another role for it, I personally as security officer prefer handling greytides than hunting antags. But why not make it alt-title for Security Officer, that would work the same as Medical Doctor and Surgeon, and it works fine in medbay.

2. Dispatcher
I'm not so sure about that one, I don't have anything against that, but do we need it? Watching cameras all the time might and propably will be boring, it sounds more like Warden's/Detective's job in free time.

3. Armorer
Someone suggested to make "Brig Technician/Brig Engineer" role here, and it basicly got denied ((even if I love the idea)). If Armorer would be a thing, I'd combine these 2 roles ((Brig tech+Armorer in one. I still love the idea of Brig Technician, even if I understand why idea was denied))

4. Detective
More than dispatcher, I'd like to see 1 additional det slot at the start of the round, and making detectives watch camera in free time ((Maybe alt-title Dispatcher?))

About "Job auto-availability", that's good idea, but I'd limit that just to general occupations like Medical Doctor/Scientist/Engineer/Security Officer/Botanist/Janitor

About "Difficulty communicating and cooperating" From what you said, you focused on inter-department communication. For me solution is to auto-assign officers to department and giving them additional radio channel. From what I know para used to have something like that, I'm not sure. 

 

15 hours ago, Pennwick said:

Personally I feel the Constable, Dispatcher, and Armorer are adding too much complexity.

The constable is only needed if you add in the Hooligans and I personally feel like they're a bad idea. If they are implemented it should probably be entirely separate decision.

The dispatcher I have a lot of issue with. Who keeps an eye out, co-ordinates officers and helps with processing when needed? THE HEAD OF SECURITY. This is kinda what the head should be doing, not acting as a Sec Officer+, you're the head of the department, you're supposed to be delegating, not rushing in with your special gun and coat.

The Armorer stepping over a lot of lines that shouldn't be. Its kind of a 'security takes what it needs' thing that I sometimes worry about with the brig doctor. RnD is usually happy to print out whatever you need if you send a PDA message to the right person or get them to notice the Requests console. The issue is that you don't know who's the RnD guy and the console is almost always ignored but if science gets the message they're usually happy to provide. Delivering is a bit of an issue but they're usually willing to take a few minutes to drag you a locker of stuff. Or you could try to get Cargo to schedule a MULE pickup but getting a tech who knows how to do that is pretty rare.

If you wanted to add someone to the Brig roster I'd make it an Assistant Warden or a Brig Officer. Full SO access but not supposed to carry a gun or baton. Their job is to help with processing, watch the prisoners and attend to their needs, keep the records nice and tidy, go check with RnD for potential upgrades, and if time permits, watch the cameras. It'd take some pressure off the Warden and give a more laid back option to security types who want a round off from "catchin' the antags".

First off, thank you both for the critiques. I definitely appreciate you taking the time to read my spiel.

Re the Constable: Making it an alt-title means that a) newbies often won't find the title in the first place, that b) it'll have the same responsibilities and duties as any other officer, resulting in anyone wanting to greytide-wrangle getting roped into antagonist-hunting by simple necessity, not to mention that c) the role would have the same SOP, gear, and duties as normal. It also wouldn't provide an earlier-unlocked role for newbies to dip their feet into playing Sec, rendering that design goal moot. Making it an alternate-title might work for the design goal of "having a lower-intensity Sec role for experienced players," but it'd be very detrimental for the goal of "providing a simpler and easier role for newbies to learn the job." I'd argue for the necessity of the Constable position given how steep the Sec learning curve is, and how many people are scared away by that alone.

Re the Dispatcher: The issue is fundamentally one of overpopulation. Having the Detective or Warden juggle watching cams in their free time makes sense with 50-something players on the server, but that's downright impossible with 100+ players around. And as mentioned, the gear rework - making Security HUDs read-only and adding a camera to Security headsets - adds a lot more potential work. Sec Officers having their own cameras by default (as opposed to the kludged-together workarounds like carrying around a Video Camera and having someone watch one of the TVs station-wide, or carrying a GPS so that their body might be found) would be helpful for keeping them in the round if they're attacked, but it does require someone to watch 'em for the rework to actually be useful. Additionally, it provides another "lower-intensity" role for both newbies looking to learn how Security functions and experienced players looking for a slower-paced round; both the Warden and Detective roles are fairly high-intensity in practice.

Re the Armorer: I can't speak for people arguing against it, but I would suggest that anyone who has an issue with the job consider the argument I made here. In line with that same argument, a key design goal behind the Armorer role was of improving departmental cooperation and avoiding the "Security island" issue. The Armorer is a Scientist rather than a member of Security, with all the baggage attached to that - they answer to the RD, they're under Science SOP, they aren't allowed to make arrests, etc etc etc. The two key elements of the role are a mindshield and having access to Security comms from roundstart, since the goal here was to provide a Scientist who had clear communication and trust with Security.

Re the Detective: Given the original design goal of the Detective (MOAR HARDBOILED) and the issue of a lack of crimes on lower populations, I'd settled instead for having additional 'Forensic Technician' slots open up as the population increased. That being said, I'd hardly be against that myself; I've certainly run my feet ragged when playing as the Detective, and I can't count how many times I've seen cases go cold due to a Detective being overworked, delinquent, or both.

Regarding "difficulty cooperating:" I'd be for having departmental checkpoints myself, although the response from the server maintainers was that it was a no-go. On the whole I definitely agree with you there, though, and I'd definitely like to see Sec Officers start with an 'assignment' to a particular department along with the armband and encryption key to go with it. I mentioned that in my argument in the other thread, but forgot to include it here - apologies. I can understand not wanting to include departmental access or Security checkpoints in different departments, but just having comms access - hell, doing the same for other departments too - could do a lot to overcome the recurring "departmental island" issue.

 

15 hours ago, tzo said:

You make some good points:

• We lack enough job slots to handle our population.
• Having more game modes that scale based on sec pop, rather than having static numbers, might help.
• Job auto-scaling would help too.
• There's been a lot of people bringing up 'sec cadets' for many different reasons over the years. Perhaps it is time to give them a try.

However, there are several issues with what you propose:

• You're conflating a lot of problems together. You might have more luck trying to tackle them separately. Getting consensus about what to do in tackling even ONE of these areas would be a challenge.
• There are some proposals in here which are just outright not viable. For example, the idea of a 'sec armorer'. It would drastically change game balance. Even more than brig phys, and brig phys is already disliked by some people because its being used in a way far more sec-favorable than intended. It was intended to allow a medic to treat prisoners, but it gets used as sec's personal medic and excuse to never visit medbay. Hooligans are just greytide... but worse. We get enough chaos from greytide as is, we don't want to legitimize it.
• These ideas are not prioritized. There so much here that realistically, we can't implement all of this at once even if we did agree with it all (which many won't). Instead of throwing out every possible idea, pick the... two or so ideas you think would help most, try to build consensus around those. Once they're merged, then look to iterate and improve on them.

Thanks. I went for a comprehensive rework because individual reforms have been shot down on the basis of being "not comprehensive enough." Given that, I figured that I might as well propose a sweeping framework to avoid that particular critique; that being said, if there's one thing I would love to see implemented, it's scaling antagonist numbers to Sec rather than to playercount. I simply can't emphasize that enough: it (should be) a relatively easy change to implement, and one that's sorely needed given the issue of low Security numbers in the first place.

In line with your critique about ordering this all into something more compact, here's a more compact framework which should hopefully make the whole mess a little more legible. It's in order of perceived importance, but the goal is to provide ideas and inspiration rather than a list of demands - coders, please pick and choose as you see fit:

 

Dealing with the overpopulation problem:

A. Antagonist balance: Make antagonist numbers (Shadowling, changeling+vampire, traitor+vampire, etc etc etc.) scale with Security playercount, rather than total playercount.

B. Job auto-creation: Additional jobs in all departments (see above) are automatically added depending on total playercount.

Helping newbies:

A. Add an alternate "Security Cadet" title to the Security Officer role.

B. Constable: An early-unlocking role with fewer responsibilities than the standard Sec Officer job. (will also help with the overpopulation issue) Additional details, including proposed SOP and starting equipment, detailed above.

Improving department cooperation:

A. Comms: Security Officers start with an armband and encryption key of another major department in their packs (Engineering, Science, Medical, or Cargo), and their starting text would additionally state that "You are assigned to the [name] department to assist them with security-related issues." I'd like to see the same for other departments. such as giving Engineers a department to focus on and the like, minus Security (since without a mindshield, it'd be potentially compromising Sec comms from the start).

B. Armorer: A Scientist with a fancy title, a mindshield, and Security comms. Can be trusted with Sec comms from the start.

Helping newbies:

A. Add a "Security Cadet" title to the Security Officer role, for anyone wanting to indicate that they're new at the job.

B. Constable: An early-unlocking role with fewer responsibilities than the standard Sec Officer job (will also help with the overpopulation issue). Meant to be focused on the "protect and serve" side of policing, and to be well out of the way of the usual Sec-antag fight if possible. Additional details available above.

Making Sec Officers less of a target:

A. Make HUDSunglasses read-only, so that antagonists won't be able to remove an *Arrest* status as easily.

B. Add a non-deactivating camera to Security bowman headsets, so that Sec Officers can be found more easily when they're in trouble.

C. Dispatcher: the Detective and Warden have their own full-time jobs to do, and can't spend their time watching over the cameras of a half-dozen officers on their lonesome. Therefore, a 'Dispatcher' role can watch the new (and old) cameras, update records, monitor comms, manning the front desk of the Brig, etc. (it'll also help with the overpopulation issue).

Misc. proposed changes (low-priority):

A. A yellow "Inspect" status, separate from the standard *Arrest* one, so that a cooperative suspect can be brought to the Brig without getting Beepsky'd.

B. Making X-Ray less ridiculously effective, so that antagonists have an easier time of escaping Security. Currently, X-Ray provides complete full-screen vision, /and/ nightvision capability to boot. Removing the night-vision power alone would make it less effective, and therefore increase the importance of supporting roles like the Detective and Dispatcher in ensuring that an antagonist is caught.

C. Hooligan: A low-level antagonist with miscellaneous goals like enriching themselves via theft, or similar actions. Basically, an effort to encourage low-level crime and an active black market, rather than making antagonistic behavior on the server be just about the big bad antags of the round.

D. Make the HoS have a small karma-lock of 5 points. Given how critical the role is to ensuring a good Security team (and how much trouble a bad HoS can cause for the crew as a whole), this should improve the competence of the average HoS per round.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Norwest

[The Respected Man]

I just want to note that sec officers who lack a basic sense of self-preservation tend to be killed. Even when i am the HoS and i tell my officers to not enter maint alone and make it absolutely clear they will be killed and spaced, they proceed to do exactly that anyway.  It's a matter of natural selection.

So you want to nerf X-Ray and make it exactly like the thermal implants, might as well remove the x-ray implant from RnD and let thermal implants remain. 

I want to note that i and other sec mains only grab x-rays because vampires also have x-ray, it's not supposed to give me an advantage over them, it's supposed to make it even. 

edit: you are under the impression that an x-ray nerf will hurt security. An x-ray nerf will hurt the vampires. I only really want x-ray so i am even with the vampires who also have x-ray. If you nerf it, they're gonna feel it harder than sec. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by The Respected Man

[ZN23X]

Security needs more bodies in high pop, period. The current maximum sec numbers are best for around 80 pop. Anything more is too much.

Some antags spawn based on how many people are on station. Not how many security. There are sometimes traitor rounds that have 20ish traitors. When security is fully staffed they have a total of 12 bodies. One is a doctor. Two are supposed to stay in the brig. Three arent supposed to be directly handling antags unless in defense. Its honestly not even a good idea for the HOS to go in the field unless its an extreme emergency but they usually go supercop anyways and it doesn't help much.

Traitors are more well armed then security, especially if they work together cuz they can get gear that compliments each other (one with carp one with guns) while sec is stuck using the same equipment as each other, half of which is nullified once a traitor kills one newbie officer and gets a HUD and headset. God forbid if a freaking cling or vamp get thier hands on syndicate gear. Forget it.

Antags are also more likely to be given useful equipment by collabs or meta buddies whereas sec rarely gets anything extremely useful from science.

Antags are also are regularly tapped into sec comms and have the element of surprise initially whereas sec stands out like a sore thumb. Add in greytide who constantly harass security or cause other problems sec needs to deal with because they are bored that they didn't roll antag and hate authority.

It's also far more likely to get 2 or 3 experienced antags who have literally worked together countless times than it is to get a sec team that works together well (same antags love bitching about cliques...lel).

Also the general attitude of the community that authority sucks and bad guys are cool because half our players are teenagers who already have severe issues with the authority figures in thier lives (parents, teachers, boss) and want to vent thier frustration here because its a game and they are too young and dumb or just don't give a shit that sec players are also players as well so they treat them like crap and make thier jobs difficult as much as possible.

Edited May 7, 2018 by ZN23X

[Benjaminfallout]

2 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

because half our players are teenagers who already have severe issues with the authority figures in thier lives (parents, teachers, boss) and want to vent thier frustration here because its a game and they are too young and dumb or just don't give a shit that sec players are also players

Begins to clap.

[Rurik]

On 5/6/2018 at 5:21 PM, Norwest said:

B. An "Inspect" arrest status: The current standard arrest statuses are *Arrest*, Incarcerated, Paroled, or Released. This is all well and good for antag-hunting, but when dealing with Code Green-level issues like "Grey McTide might have made a stunprod, please check his pack," there's no way to mark someone for arrest without also sic'ing the bots on them. I'd like to bring someone in quietly like SOP demands, but if they go by Beepsky or an ED-209 with an *Arrest* status active, they're heading to the Brig in cuffs whether I want it or not. A yellow "Inspect" status would mean "arrest this person, but do it nicely," and work in conjunction with the standard one.

I don't agree with many of these ideas put forth for various reasons, mostly ones already stated. Some of said ideas also would also adversely affect dynamic balance between sec and antags, which currently is, at best, finicky. That being said, this idea really stuck me as brilliant, and definitely deserving of some thought for it. It would increase rp between sec and crew on green instead of just a instant taze from bot/sec officer. This would increase quality of life for both the crew and sec together.  That, in my book, is a instant plus, and I fail to see a downside to it.

Also giving a alt title of 'security cadet' or something of the sort to sec officer is worth trying, at least. It would give fellow officers a heads up on who is new, while still retaining the same amount of access and responsibility. Once again, I fail to see a downside to that.

12 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Also the general attitude of the community that authority sucks and bad guys are cool because half our players are teenagers who already have severe issues with the authority figures in thier lives (parents, teachers, boss) and want to vent thier frustration here because its a game and they are too young and dumb or just don't give a shit that sec players are also players as well so they treat them like crap and make thier jobs difficult as much as possible.

Or the 'greytide' just might be bored and forget that sec are players as well. : /

Edited May 7, 2018 by Rurik
spelling and clarification

[ZN23X]

12 minutes ago, Rurik said:

Or they just might be bored. : /

Alright I'll add either the authority issue I previously mentioned or they are too young and dumb to think of anything interesting or entertaining to do than act like assholes. I get it. I was once a stupid teenager who thought it was funny as hell to do stupid shit and either not care or even take pleasure that its making others miserable. Decade+ later I also realize how much of an idiot I was.

I'm not even saying this needs to be corrected. It literally can't be. Its part of being that age. Still doesn't take away from the fact that they lead to sec being more stressful.

You'll all eventually be my age and be like "This is what ZN was talking about..." when you are playing games against the gamers being born today. When we get older its our karma to have games ruined for us by kids who act how we used to act when we were ruining games for others. Circle of life

Edited May 7, 2018 by ZN23X

[Rurik]

Just now, ZN23X said:

Alright I'll add either the authority issue I previously mentioned or they are too young and dumb to think of anything interesting or entertaining to do than act like assholes. I get it. I was once a stupid teenager who thought it was funny as hell. Decade+ later I also realize how much of an idiot I was.

I'm not even saying this needs to be corrected. It literally can't be. Its part of being that age. Still doesn't take away from the fact that they lead to sec being more stressful.

Fair

[Norwest]

55 minutes ago, The Respected Man said:

I just want to note that sec officers who lack a basic sense of self-preservation tend to be killed. Even when i am the HoS and i tell my officers to not enter maint alone and make it absolutely clear they will be killed and spaced, they proceed to do exactly that anyway.  It's a matter of natural selection.

I don't disagree with that, and to be fair, I don't think that any of the proposals I've made have altered that. The change I've tried to make via the whole "headset camera + dedicated camera-watcher" proposal was to increase the likelihood that said dead Seccie would get recovered, and wouldn't be permanently dumped from the round. After all, natural selection here is voluntary; if people keep having unenjoyable experiences while playing as a Sec Officer, they're simply going to play as a Scientist instead and tool around with 5 AEGs in their Bag of Holding backpack. Having a "guardian angel" role like the Dispatcher increases the odds that a Sec Officer will get found and revived, and make them less likely to say "fuckit, time to play Rimworld instead."

50 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

Traitors are more well armed then security, especially if they work together cuz they can get gear that compliments each other (one with carp one with guns) while sec is stuck using the same equipment as each other, half of which is nullified once a traitor kills one newbie officer and gets a HUD and headset. God forbid if a freaking cling or vamp get thier hands on syndicate gear. Forget it.

Antags are also more likely to be given useful equipment by collabs or meta buddies whereas sec rarely gets anything extremely useful from science.

To add to what you're saying, I should note that "different antagonists cooperating to absolutely demolish Security" is enough of a common event that the term 'carpire' (i.e. a traitor giving the 17-TC Sleeping Carp scroll to a vampire to make them downright invincible) is in common use. There's an active suggestion to ban the practice entirely, for understandable reasons.

45 minutes ago, Rurik said:

I don't agree with many of these ideas put forth for various reasons, mostly ones already stated. Some of said ideas also would also adversely affect dynamic balance between sec and antags, which currently is, at best, finicky. That being said, this idea really stuck me as brilliant, and definitely deserving of some thought for it. It would increase rp between sec and crew on green instead of just a instant taze from bot/sec officer. This would increase quality of life for both the crew and sec together.  That, in my book, is a instant plus, and I fail to see a downside to it.

Thanks, and yeah, I'd love to try and mechanically encourage better Sec-crew cooperation through relatively small changes like these. Having played a solid amount of Security myself, though, I'd add that simple stress and overwork contributes to a lot of bad behavior from Security. Constantly having to put out additional brushfires and fighting murderous antagonists unsurprisingly makes for a stressful time, and one where the Sec Officer is likely to simply ignore the finer points of SOP and just goes for the mute taze-cuff-drag instead of trying to talk things out with some greytider who's breaking windows. I don't want to absolve Sec players here, mind you, but I'd point to additional jobs like the Constable and Dispatcher for assisting with that overwork and improving Sec-crew relations on the whole.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Norwest

[Kyet]

5 hours ago, Norwest said:

 

Dealing with the overpopulation problem:

1. Antagonist balance: Make antagonist numbers (Shadowling, changeling+vampire, traitor+vampire, etc etc etc.) scale with Security playercount, rather than total playercount.

2. Job auto-creation: Additional jobs in all departments (see above) are automatically added depending on total playercount.

Helping newbies:

3. Add an alternate "Security Cadet" title to the Security Officer role.

4. Constable: An early-unlocking role with fewer responsibilities than the standard Sec Officer job. (will also help with the overpopulation issue) Additional details, including proposed SOP and starting equipment, detailed above.

Improving department cooperation:

5. Comms: Security Officers start with an armband and encryption key of another major department in their packs (Engineering, Science, Medical, or Cargo), and their starting text would additionally state that "You are assigned to the [name] department to assist them with security-related issues." I'd like to see the same for other departments. such as giving Engineers a department to focus on and the like, minus Security (since without a mindshield, it'd be potentially compromising Sec comms from the start).

6. Armorer: A Scientist with a fancy title, a mindshield, and Security comms. Can be trusted with Sec comms from the start.

Helping newbies:

7. Add a "Security Cadet" title to the Security Officer role, for anyone wanting to indicate that they're new at the job.

8. Constable: An early-unlocking role with fewer responsibilities than the standard Sec Officer job (will also help with the overpopulation issue). Meant to be focused on the "protect and serve" side of policing, and to be well out of the way of the usual Sec-antag fight if possible. Additional details available above.

Making Sec Officers less of a target:

9. Make HUDSunglasses read-only, so that antagonists won't be able to remove an *Arrest* status as easily.

10. Add a non-deactivating camera to Security bowman headsets, so that Sec Officers can be found more easily when they're in trouble.

11. Dispatcher: the Detective and Warden have their own full-time jobs to do, and can't spend their time watching over the cameras of a half-dozen officers on their lonesome. Therefore, a 'Dispatcher' role can watch the new (and old) cameras, update records, monitor comms, manning the front desk of the Brig, etc. (it'll also help with the overpopulation issue).

Misc. proposed changes (low-priority):

12. A yellow "Inspect" status, separate from the standard *Arrest* one, so that a cooperative suspect can be brought to the Brig without getting Beepsky'd.

13. Making X-Ray less ridiculously effective, so that antagonists have an easier time of escaping Security. Currently, X-Ray provides complete full-screen vision, /and/ nightvision capability to boot. Removing the night-vision power alone would make it less effective, and therefore increase the importance of supporting roles like the Detective and Dispatcher in ensuring that an antagonist is caught.

14. Hooligan: A low-level antagonist with miscellaneous goals like enriching themselves via theft, or similar actions. Basically, an effort to encourage low-level crime and an active black market, rather than making antagonistic behavior on the server be just about the big bad antags of the round.

15. Make the HoS have a small karma-lock of 5 points. Given how critical the role is to ensuring a good Security team (and how much trouble a bad HoS can cause for the crew as a whole), this should improve the competence of the average HoS per round.

(I re-numbered your points in that quote, so that I can reference them independently)

1. Would require all game modes to be changed to use scaling mechanics similar to autotraitor. Might also require changes to the way jobs are assigned (to prevent people with 'sec' on high never being antag-eligible in this system)

2. Not that hard to do. Would probably be a lot of debate about thresholds.

3 & 4. Adding an alt title is easy, but if I were you, I would push for a genuine 'Security Cadet' job. I know a fair few people, including myself, support it. It won't be easy to get merged but it will solve, or at least help to address, multiple issues if it does. I envision Security Cadet similarly to how you imagine constable / dispatcher.

5. Possible. TG has such a system. Can actually already be done if officers request it at HoP office.

6. Not viable.

7. This is a duplicate of 3.

8. This is a duplicate of 4.

9. This would severely impact Sec's ability to do their jobs, as many, many officers set arrest status on the fly.

10. Headsets don't have cameras. Did you mean helmet? Like the ERT cams? Doable, but I expect a fair few to object.

11. Don't bother having a dedicated dispatcher job, just have a sec cadet do it.

12. If you want to make sec's life better, and say they lack upgrades, then nerfing one of the few genuinely useful upgrades they do have doesn't seem to be the way to go about it.

13. Not great, for reasons discussed previously.

14. This violates our policy of not karma-locking vanilla jobs.

 

Overall, if we're looking to translate this into actual github PRs, I would suggest starting with idea 2 (adding more slots at predefined crew intervals), or possibly the 'security cadet' alt job title idea. After that, the next most promising idea would probably be making 'security cadet' into a real job, separate from officer. I think this has the best chance of being merged as a variety of people seem to be in favor of it for different reasons, which might be enough of a coalition to get it passed.

Personally I still favor the piecemeal approach simply because big PRs can take a very long time to be resolved, and generate enormous amounts of discussion, etc. They're big projects. Still, if you've been specifically told by someone with actual authority over PR merging (ie: maintainers or headmins) that an overhaul would be better - I would take their advice.

Edited May 8, 2018 by tzo

[ZN23X]

There ARE some problems with a lower impact role in security such as a cadet. First, what gear will they have? Still a headset I imagine, security access, and probably also a Sec HUD. This will still make them a valuable target for antags. And they'll have this special role assigned to them which pretty much screams "I'm newbie sec". Our experienced antag players would have a field day taking advatage of this because they've repeatedly shown they'll take advantage of anything they are allowed to frequently.

On the flip side you'll also have lower impact sec who will quite frankly just still act like officers. IC we don't know if someone is a greytide or an antag half the time. It'd be impossible to regulate WHO they are allowed to arrest. Like if an officer is calling for help from maint because a vampire has them is the lower impact sec supposed to say to themself "Not my job, they are an antag, and I only handle bar fights"? That doesn't make sense from an IC perspective.

This also doesn't talk about the fact that all of these things would help sec deal with EXPERIENCED antags. Less experienced antags already struggle, especially in rounds with try hard sec. All these additions would make it even harder for less experienced antags and lead to even more behavior where newb antags either try to replicate the same strategies experienced antags use (making things more predictable and repetitive) or more of the "Oh, I know this player is robust via meta knowledge so I'll just give them my TC and have them do the work for me" leading to even more excessively imbalanced fights.

There is always gonna be antags and sec who only care about winning, this cannot be corrected, and more frequently than anything the balance of the round is going to be determined by how many try hard sec there are vs how many try hard antags. It cannot be corrected by adjusting game mechanics. As with most issues on this server, its just a behavioral mindset that can only be influenced by how we play. And to be frank, trying really hard is more rewarding than not because you die and are removed from the round less, plus you gain a bunch of fan girls/haters who constantly praise/complain about how good you are.

[Norwest]

15 hours ago, tzo said:

(I re-numbered your points in that quote, so that I can reference them independently)

1. Would require all game modes to be changed to use scaling mechanics similar to autotraitor. Might also require changes to the way jobs are assigned (to prevent people with 'sec' on high never being antag-eligible in this system)

2. Not that hard to do. Would probably be a lot of debate about thresholds.

3 & 4. Adding an alt title is easy, but if I were you, I would push for a genuine 'Security Cadet' job. I know a fair few people, including myself, support it. It won't be easy to get merged but it will solve, or at least help to address, multiple issues if it does. I envision Security Cadet similarly to how you imagine constable / dispatcher.

5. Possible. TG has such a system. Can actually already be done if officers request it at HoP office.

6. Not viable.

7. This is a duplicate of 3.

8. This is a duplicate of 4.

9. This would severely impact Sec's ability to do their jobs, as many, many officers set arrest status on the fly.

10. Headsets don't have cameras. Did you mean helmet? Like the ERT cams? Doable, but I expect a fair few to object.

11. Don't bother having a dedicated dispatcher job, just have a sec cadet do it.

12. If you want to make sec's life better, and say they lack upgrades, then nerfing one of the few genuinely useful upgrades they do have doesn't seem to be the way to go about it.

13. Not great, for reasons discussed previously.

14. This violates our policy of not karma-locking vanilla jobs.

 

Overall, if we're looking to translate this into actual github PRs, I would suggest starting with idea 2 (adding more slots at predefined crew intervals), or possibly the 'security cadet' alt job title idea. After that, the next most promising idea would probably be making 'security cadet' into a real job, separate from officer. I think this has the best chance of being merged as a variety of people seem to be in favor of it for different reasons, which might be enough of a coalition to get it passed.

Personally I still favor the piecemeal approach simply because big PRs can take a very long time to be resolved, and generate enormous amounts of discussion, etc. They're big projects. Still, if you've been specifically told by someone with actual authority over PR merging (ie: maintainers or headmins) that an overhaul would be better - I would take their advice.

Thanks for the input, @tzo; I really appreciate the effort you've put in to critiquing this. Re the new critiques you've added:

Overpopulation:

1. Auto-antags: I think you're right that it'd probably be difficult to code, but I put it as my #1 suggestion because I think it'd have an outsize impact on improving gameplay. "Aesthetic" changes like adding an Inspect status aren't any good when the entire Sec team has been facerolled by an overwhelming number of antagonists. @Allfd, I'm sure you'd know far more than me about the coding side of things; any suggestions here regarding either the implementation or effect on game balance?

2. Auto-job creation: Fair point, yes. I've suggested initial job-creation thresholds above, but there are obvious potential issues with regards to job equipment, office space, and the like. This could be addressed to some degree by having late-joining players spawn with additional equipment; a late-joining Engineer starting off with magboots in their inventory, for instance (hardsuits are all well and good, but in the age of fastmos, magboots are a very literal necessity for even minor hull breaches or similar atmos issues).

Helping newbies:

3&4. Low-intensity Sec roles: I hear what you're saying, and I'd certainly be happy to see a "Security Cadet" role in some form. However, a separate "Constable/Peace Officer" role or the like also provides a low-intensity role for more-experienced players who want to keep the peace while staying out of the way of antagonists - two birds with one stone, essentially. I don't plan on dying on this hill, but I think it's safe to say that experienced players who wouldn't play as a "cadet" (i.e. an explicitly-subordinate role) might instead play the role if it's renamed as a "community officer" or the like.

Improving department cooperation:

5. Comms: True, it can be done currently, but the extra in-game logistics and difficulty involved means that it's fairly rare, no? Certainly, I haven't seen it done myself outside of Metastation (where the departmental Sec checkpoints have encryption keys already). That being said, I imagine that actually coding this might be impractical in practice; having departmental checkpoints simplifies the whole matter by tying the new equipment to a static place at roundstart, rather than to players who'll regularly enter and exit the game.

6. Armorer: Can you elaborate, please? I doubt that having different Scientists assigned to different departments ("Here's a Medbay/Engineering/Service encryption key and armband, please assist them as able") would raise eyebrows, so I'm not clear how doing the same for Sec is unworkable out-of-hand.

Making Sec Officers less of a target:

9. Making HUDs read-only: It'd stop people from just doing so on the fly, yes, but even outside of the antagonist issue (i.e. an antag steals or prints a SecHUD and makes themselves immune to Secbots by virtue of changing their arrest status), it also leads to a lot of bad behavior on Sec's part. Part of the reason I stopped playing Warden was having to shout into Sec comms to figure out why the hell someone in custody was there, because bloody nobody ever updated arrest statuses with a note. I can't speak for the people who were arrested, but I certainly heard a lot of well-deserved complaints about "shitcurity" from people who had to wait ten minutes just to get processed.

10. Headset camera: Apologies for the confusion. To clarify, I was suggesting adding the camera to the bowman headset, Aliens-style, so that the player could wear whatever headgear they wanted (and to tie the headset's valuable ear protection to the camera). And while I agree about the potential objections, I'd also point to the issues this was meant to address, namely Sec Officers being valid-salad and being rapidly booted from the game as a result, and the issue of Security gear like flashbangs being rendered halfway-useless the moment an antagonist jumps a newbie Seccie. If anyone can suggest another way of both making Sec gear less useful for an antagonist and making Sec Officers more likely to be recovered when they die, I'm all ears.

11. Dispatcher: I hear what you're saying, but making a cadet do so every game requires both reliable and effective leadership (i.e. the HoS to single out some newbie and demand "Hey, you! Abandon whatever you'd planned and watch those cameras!") and reliable player compliance (i.e. said newbie actually doing so). I've played a lot of Command roles, primarily Chief Engineer, and I've found compliance to be extremely low in practice. Actually getting people to follow commands can be difficult, especially so when the job isn't clearly defined, and the advantage of a separate role is that it provides a clear scope of practice (i.e. "If you sign up as a Dispatcher you'll be watching cameras and updating arrest records") and an explicit choice on the player's part (i.e. the player who's picked the role will be entering the game much more likely to actually carry it out than the random cadet who's been told "oi, get over there and figure out how2camera-console"). This is meant as a "package deal" with the headset cameras and change to HUDs, as otherwise I don't see a clear need for the role, but if those changes were to be implemented then I'd argue that the necessity of a dedicated Dispatcher would rapidly become self-evident.

Misc. changes:

12. An "Inspect" status: ---

13. Changes to X-Ray: Fair point, but to quote an anonymous person from deadchat: "The moment I hear that Genetics has discovered X-Ray, I just start killing every Sec Officer I see. Once they can follow me like that, I need to thin them out." I've heard this sentiment a couple times, and although I can't speak for the validity in practice, I've seen two instances so far which seem to back this up in practice (experienced players who switched from non-lethal to lethal attacks once X-Ray began to be distributed). I don't think this behavior is something which can be cut down via admin intervention, as that'd be expecting too much from admins, so, well...*shrugs*

14. Hooligan: Fair enough. Alternatives could include money-dependent vending machines which would dispense desirable but low-availability equipment (insulated gloves, tool-belts/holsters, etc.), with the goal of encouraging a black market or similar low-intensity crime. That being said, I'm not overly wedded to the idea myself, so I've no issue with dropping it.

15. Making the HoS a karma-locked role: Apologies, I wasn't aware of that previously.

 

 

 

Thanks for the advice regarding translation into PRs. With that in mind, I'd agree that auto-job creation and the "cadet" role would be good starting points. I'd personally prefer the "cadet" position as an alt-title for the "Sec Officer" role rather than a separate job itself due to the issues that @ZN23X and I mentioned earlier, but I'd be happy either way; anything to ease the learning-cliff issue inherent in Sec would come in handy. I'd point to the "Inspect" status as another relatively easily-implemented change*, and one without many downsides that I can see.

 

 

 

 

*Near as I can tell, implementing it would involve adding a separate "Inspect" status on the Sec computer, HUD, data core records, and the basic human.dm pages ("criminal" subsection). Given that it explicitly doesn't involve any changes to bot/turret behavior or the like, though, it seems like it'd be relatively feasible.

 

 

9 hours ago, ZN23X said:

There ARE some problems with a lower impact role in security such as a cadet. First, what gear will they have? Still a headset I imagine, security access, and probably also a Sec HUD. This will still make them a valuable target for antags. And they'll have this special role assigned to them which pretty much screams "I'm newbie sec". Our experienced antag players would have a field day taking advatage of this because they've repeatedly shown they'll take advantage of anything they are allowed to frequently.

On the flip side you'll also have lower impact sec who will quite frankly just still act like officers. IC we don't know if someone is a greytide or an antag half the time. It'd be impossible to regulate WHO they are allowed to arrest. Like if an officer is calling for help from maint because a vampire has them is the lower impact sec supposed to say to themself "Not my job, they are an antag, and I only handle bar fights"? That doesn't make sense from an IC perspective.

This also doesn't talk about the fact that all of these things would help sec deal with EXPERIENCED antags. Less experienced antags already struggle, especially in rounds with try hard sec. All these additions would make it even harder for less experienced antags and lead to even more behavior where newb antags either try to replicate the same strategies experienced antags use (making things more predictable and repetitive) or more of the "Oh, I know this player is robust via meta knowledge so I'll just give them my TC and have them do the work for me" leading to even more excessively imbalanced fights.

There is always gonna be antags and sec who only care about winning, this cannot be corrected, and more frequently than anything the balance of the round is going to be determined by how many try hard sec there are vs how many try hard antags. It cannot be corrected by adjusting game mechanics. As with most issues on this server, its just a behavioral mindset that can only be influenced by how we play. And to be frank, trying really hard is more rewarding than not because you die and are removed from the round less, plus you gain a bunch of fan girls/haters who constantly praise/complain about how good you are.

Indeed, but at the end of the day, I think the current pattern of "if you play Sec you'll always hunt antags, no AEGs/teleshields, FINAL DESTINATION" is not a workable one. We need some means of easing not just the learning curve, but the round-to-round expectation placed on someone wanting to play Sec. The only Sec role I'll play at this point is the Pod Pilot, because I'm expected to patrol the station exterior and avoid the inevitable bloodbaths when some antag decides they're going to dunk on a Sec Officer or three. I'd like a role which involves not getting sucked into those godawful messes in Maintenance, and one where I'm supposed to actually help crew instead of just hunting down the worst among them; after all, part of the enjoyment of the Pod Pilot role is rescuing people who need a save. Issues of a lower-intensity role being valid-salad can be addressed in large part by where they patrol (i.e. someone who spends their time largely in Processing or public areas is in much less risk of getting slammed than someone who's expected to regularly patrol Maintenance), and also by making their equipment less-attractive to antagonists (please note my previous proposals regarding HUDs and headsets). Overall, I'd argue that there's enough of a demand for a lower-intensity role to justify the occasional in-game confusion and issues that you're talking about.

Regarding someone who's going "full murderbone," I don't see much of a mechanical method for correcting it. Admin-wise, having a protocol for discouraging that sort of behavior (a private warning to antags and a CentComm one for Sec, a dedicated ERT or antagonist like a Space Ninja, etc.) might help, and on the Sec side, giving Legal more authority (IAAs, SOP, and the Magistrate) might assist in curbing smaller excesses.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Norwest

[SkeletalElite]

I think the read only on secHUDs in unnecessary and annoying. I set anyone who takes themself off arrest to execute to prevent them from taking it off

 

Also what if hooligans were made into their own mode and we replace extended in rotation with hooligans so sec actually have something to do

Edited May 8, 2018 by SkeletalElite

[Kyet]

8 hours ago, Norwest said:

2. Auto-job creation: Fair point, yes. I've suggested initial job-creation thresholds above, but there are obvious potential issues with regards to job equipment, office space, and the like. This could be addressed to some degree by having late-joining players spawn with additional equipment; a late-joining Engineer starting off with magboots in their inventory, for instance (hardsuits are all well and good, but in the age of fastmos, magboots are a very literal necessity for even minor hull breaches or similar atmos issues).@ZN23X

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/8995

The maints probably won't merge something like this unless it uses config files. Even then, not a guarantee at all. So, to start with, I created a single 'highpop' new config file with additional job slots in it. Hopefully that can be merged.

These slots open after roundstart, so that we can ensure each department has at least a skeleton crew. If we opened them prior to roundstart, we could end up with situations in which certain departments were overstaffed and others (e.g: sec) operated on a skeleton crew.

 

Re: Armorer, the reason I say its not viable is that:

• I get the impression the maintainers hate the idea
• I hate the idea too
• Brig Phys already works like this. It was intended to treat prisoners, not sec. Now it gets used as sec's own personal mini-medbay. A sec-loyal person with R&D access could similarly turn bad, fast. Instead of outfitting sec, they could outfit themselves, they could steal all of Science' supplies without Science being able to do anything about it, etc. In short, it hands an enormous amount of power to someone who would already get the benefit of the doubt from both the crew and other security forces - which is an invitation for bad behavior.

Edited May 9, 2018 by tzo