Remove Security

[Hairy Ban Jhankri]

It's boring and useless.

/thread

Just kidding. There's more to it than that.

It's boring for all involved, it's useless as far as being reliable, and it almost always causes way more problems than the department mitigates or is even possible to mitigate, let alone mediate. 

The department could be removed, and there would only be positives to come out of it; no one will be harassed by shitsec, no more loot pinatas, no more arguing space law with admins, and it will increase RP. And I'm sure there are plenty of other positives.

There are no negatives; security rarely has a good member, and they usually aren't listened to, anyway, and gets killed by the other members through negligence, ignorance, etc. Security doesn't, or isn't able to enforce the law to begin with, so removing them isn't a problem. There are usually scientists who end up being security, anyway, and that is all that is really needed for any sort of antag deterrent. 

Any significant need for security could be mitigated with ERT use. Minor needs for departmental discipline could be handled by the heads of each department as well as IA.

As far as security players go; there are two main groups. Old veteran players, and the ones who are just starting to pick up the ropes. To the new ones; I'd say potentially being hired as some form of security by the HOP might be fun for you, or perhaps as a bouncer at the bar, if you are disappointed at the prospect of no longer having a security department. For the old ones; I'd say that to keep going back to security to try to make security good/fun again is like going back to an ex-girlfriend that does the thing you like, texting you at 3am, saying she wants to meet up, to do that thing you like, only to remember why you broke up in the first place; before she does the thing you like. It would probably be more enjoyable, less stressful, and provides more benefit to the rest of the crew, to move on to a new department. 

Really, when it comes down to it; there isn't really a need or use for security, nor benefit. It might as well be the new xeno-arch. Except for hiding bodies; it's for being a domineering asshole, and looting noobs as an antag. It would be more fun and less stressful for all, to remove security.

[WingedYordle]

Honk

[davidchan]

*Mimes a bike horn*

[BottomQuark]

Yes

[ZN23X]

Damnit, I was trying to think of something new to post that would get me lots of reactions. Foiled again.

Time to write up my "Remove Spess" post...

[davidchan]

5 hours ago, ZN23X said:

Damnit, I was trying to think of something new to post that would get me lots of reactions. Foiled again.

Time to write up my "Remove Spess" post...

Remove walls. Its 2558 people!

[Bxil]

15 minutes ago, davidchan said:

2558

2562

[James5734]

fuck yes now I can live out my valid hunting dreams instead of having to deal with all the dumb rules and regulations of security

[Mitchs98]

Yeah. Sure.

Why not.

While we're at it let's remove the rules on murderboning and turn the server into a death match. 

What could possibly go wrong?

[Xyd]

@OP

Have you seen the therapist yet? 

If not, you should.

 

[GuiltyBeans]

Removing security will in no way improve anything. At that point you would have antags with free reign over the station, especially robust antags, and constant valid hunting. Security would no longer be security, but science would pick up the slack, as well as cargo. You would have scientists with death chems and memes running around hunting antags, with Cargo ordering weapons and armor to do the same. As it was said, it would become a death match. RP would plummet to all time low, as the whole rule of 'Play the role you chose' is just tossed to the wind.

As it is we fight against valid hunters because security plays a vital roll. They're a department meant to keep peace and detain threats that pop up on a space station owned by a enormous company. Of course there are issues. Newer players don't know space law as in depth as the veterans and the veterans are so robust that the newer ones generally don't keep up with them, or if they try, get left behind because the robust one goes off on their own while dragging a Beepsky in tow. Shitcurity is a common word tossed around when people get salty as shit about how they are treated by a security officer, 9 time out of 10. Most of the times it's because they are a new player in security trying to learn the ropes. But people get so upset over some minutes of their round that I honestly feel their RP level drops. Why would you honestly get that pissed at an officer? If you aren't doing anything wrong just go with it... Like.. What is it honestly doing to you to cooperate and maybe help the guy arresting you learn? I have noticed, at times, people doing something, such as breaking into the gateway. That IS against space law, and when someone arrests that person for doing it they are slapped with the label of Shitcurity. Because OOCly yeah, fuck, it's not that big a deal. But RP wise... Why? It makes sense for them to arrest someone breaking space law. 

There's a lot to go on about here, but I don't want to build a wall for people to read. So basically, Security is important. ERT's are only reliable when admins are able to grant them and even then they are filled with the same players that play security some times, and other rolls. Play your role, don't be a greytide and for god fucking sake, if you get arrested don't be the shitter that starts screaming shitcurity because it takes you out of the round for what, 15 minutes? Sometimes being a nice guy when you get arrested will get your time lowered. I should know, I've done it. 

God I can go on and on with this, already feel like I got off subject somewhere in there..... >:/

[Xyd]

2 hours ago, GuiltyBeans said:

Shitcurity is a common word tossed around when people get salty as shit about how they are treated by a security officer, 9 time out of 10. 

 

I have noticed, at times, people doing something, such as breaking into the gateway. That IS against space law, and when someone arrests that person for doing it they are slapped with the label of Shitcurity. 

This, so much... ^^

Another thing is, some people have issues against authority, just because they are authority. And a lot of that can end up being soaked into how they play, how they interact with security, when it shouldn't.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Xyd

[Sonador]

[Regen]

Ok removing security

[McRamon]

2 hours ago, Regen said:

Ok removing security

Can you please add more antags then too? Those who have right to murderbone ofc

[ZN23X]

8 hours ago, GuiltyBeans said:

Shitcurity is a common word tossed around when people get salty as shit about how they are treated by a security officer, 9 time out of 10.

Shitcurity is yet another "allowed" derogatory term,  like furry, that all the edgy teenagers use because they aren't allowed to use the derogatory terms that have been normalized by the other garbage environments they were raised in playing other games. 

Plus they naturally have to kick and scream like the children they are any time stuff doesn't go how they want it to.

That all being said, the initial post here was clearly a troll post to stir shit up.  Stop responding to it in a serious fashion and giving it some sort of validity.

Edited May 22, 2018 by ZN23X

[Hairy Ban Jhankri]

So on one hand, thanks, GB, for the in depth analysis. On the other for a lot of people here; 

 

I'm poking fun at the state of security, and how it'd be easier to remove the whole thing with a higher success rate, than keeping it as is, or trying to improve anything. Generally poking fun at security, security players, and the way security is being handled. 

 

While serious points are being raised, though; let's break it down.

7 hours ago, GuiltyBeans said:

Removing security will in no way improve anything. At that point you would have antags with free reign over the station, especially robust antags, and constant valid hunting. Security would no longer be security, but science would pick up the slack, as well as cargo. You would have scientists with death chems and memes running around hunting antags, with Cargo ordering weapons and armor to do the same. As it was said, it would become a death match. RP would plummet to all time low, as the whole rule of 'Play the role you chose' is just tossed to the wind.

So, the joke is that antags can already have free reign, and they sometimes do, as well as there is already constant valid hunting. "Security would no longer be security" right, so, if security were removed, right. There would be no security. Which is making fun of the fact that there really isn't security to begin with. That's the joke. Security is so bad; others even have the opportunity or the inkling, to stop their own jobs, to form vigilante mobs. What is more hilarious; they actually have better capability in doing so, than security. Everything you just said; is already happening, so I don't know if you are parodying the situation as I am, or not. Sorry if I ruined the ruse and joke, if so. RP is actually at it's all time low, by the way, as well as "play the role you've chosen". Those are separate topics, though. Those points aren't apart of the joke.

8 hours ago, GuiltyBeans said:

As it is we fight against valid hunters because security plays a vital roll. They're a department meant to keep peace and detain threats that pop up on a space station owned by a enormous company. Of course there are issues. Newer players don't know space law as in depth as the veterans and the veterans are so robust that the newer ones generally don't keep up with them, or if they try, get left behind because the robust one goes off on their own while dragging a Beepsky in tow. Shitcurity is a common word tossed around when people get salty as shit about how they are treated by a security officer, 9 time out of 10. Most of the times it's because they are a new player in security trying to learn the ropes. But people get so upset over some minutes of their round that I honestly feel their RP level drops. Why would you honestly get that pissed at an officer? If you aren't doing anything wrong just go with it... Like.. What is it honestly doing to you to cooperate and maybe help the guy arresting you learn? I have noticed, at times, people doing something, such as breaking into the gateway. That IS against space law, and when someone arrests that person for doing it they are slapped with the label of Shitcurity. Because OOCly yeah, fuck, it's not that big a deal. But RP wise... Why? It makes sense for them to arrest someone breaking space law. 

 Dragging a beepsky in tow is the hilarious opposite of robust. Relying on gear, especially in excess, is the opposite of robust. Leaving coworkers behind in dangerous situations isn't robust. As far as shitcurity as a word goes; it used to be used by anyone and everyone. Including security players to other security players. It tests temperament, it's trolling, I guess, used to be used ironically, and almost nearly never used unironically. As far as everything else... People probably value their time a lot more, than those who don't mind. Simple as that, really. Falling back on the shitcurity point; hazing was a good teaching method. If an officer fucks up, and the detainee, fellow officers, command, and the rest of the crew all weigh in on saying "that move/behaviour is/was shitcurity" then lesson is learned a lot quicker, of to not do that again. So, dealing with a pissed off person is part of the learning and teaching process. Moreover; it is natural to range anywhere from mildly upset to stark raving mad when unlawfully/unnecessarily  bothered by authority figures. It isn't something that some people grasp as a concept, until they are in some form of authority, in game or otherwise. Out of character; I imagine more so for the demographics to play this game. That isn't even touching upon the vast sociological and psychological differences that you get in an multinational game. So, to wrap up this bit, it doesn't help anyone learn, not as effectively, anyway, and as far as people getting pissed; the reasons are vast. Individually, you might have to ask what exactly it is that bothers people, in the moment. Beyond that, though; law should be enforced uniformly, so it doesn't cause confusion and upset in those who emulate common behaviours. 

8 hours ago, GuiltyBeans said:

There's a lot to go on about here, but I don't want to build a wall for people to read. So basically, Security is important. ERT's are only reliable when admins are able to grant them and even then they are filled with the same players that play security some times, and other rolls. Play your role, don't be a greytide and for god fucking sake, if you get arrested don't be the shitter that starts screaming shitcurity because it takes you out of the round for what, 15 minutes? Sometimes being a nice guy when you get arrested will get your time lowered. I should know, I've done it. 

I don't know about you, but I value 15 minutes of my life. Most people do, hence why they get so upset about trivial things causing a disruption. Even 5 minutes, will usually be pretty potent. A buddy once asked my why I don't take the toll roads. I said I didn't mind the 10 minutes, and I didn't want to spend the money. He said if he could buy ten minutes of life, he would. Again, that sociological and psychological diversity facet should at least be acknowledged, for better understanding. Maybe for someone who plays several rounds a day, 15, or even 5 minutes every so often isn't a big deal. For others who play a couple rounds a week or month, it might mean more. Or it could go the other way. However you want to look at it. People vary. As far as greytide; I'd imagine those types to either want to be caught, or just want to cause problems and then leave. I don't think they are really the issue. If they are; that should be addressed immediately. As far as being meek and passive to get out of trouble; that is a fair tactic, I'm certain everyone has used it, before. Others aren't like that, and that is equally fair RP. Being horrible to deal with means you probably won't be dealt with very much in the future. I should know; I hate bothering with the meta-cliques that do it all the time. Which to be clear; I was a well known, and well liked HOS player, by antag and loyalist alike. None of this is speaking out of my ass; I'm approaching from the perspective of a clown, security, and command. All angles. I shouldn't have to play the identity card, but there you go. "expert opinion". 

[Hairy Ban Jhankri]

1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

Shitcurity is yet another "allowed" derogatory term,  like furry, that all the edgy teenagers use because they aren't allowed to use the derogatory terms that have been normalized by the other garbage environments they were raised in playing other games. 

Plus they naturally have to kick and scream like the children they are any time stuff doesn't go how they want it to.

That all being said, the initial post here was clearly a troll post to stir shit up.  Stop responding to it in a serious fashion and giving it some sort of validity.

So first, it was clearly a "troll post" in the sense of it being a lampoon. "Troll" has the implication of it being for a malicious intent, same as "stir shit up". This was indeed a joke, a caricature, a lampoon, spoof, farce, parody, for enjoyment. A possible solution does not mean a good solution; the fact that it indeed is plausible was interesting to me, as I am not sure how often something so outlandish is actually indeed able to be plausible. I am certain, that with very few tweaks, someone could have a server without security, and be absolutely fine. There have been plenty of servers without rules, even, that are dictated purely by RP, and they have surprisingly been fine. But the implication of malicious intent, is disheartening. This was, or so I thought, clearly light-hearted, and meant for the casual discussion for the purpose of opening up serious dialogue from a place of comedy and community. I think most people got the joke; I'm not sure people got the intent of the joke, though, and that it is meant to spark discussion and "think tank". These sorts of posts were quite common and well received years prior; if they are no longer welcome, or they are no longer understood, let me know, and I will cease further humour. 

For everything else; I'm not sure people remember what shitcurity means. It is the same as "captain is comdom" "ai is rouge" "George Melons is griffing me 4no Raisins". Memes. Common jokes, with associated meanings. Almost never serious. Here are some links to help explain the jokes versus when it is actually serious

 https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Shitcurity  https://www.reddit.com/r/SS13/comments/3174il/what_do_you_consider_shitcurity/

Shitcurity is a prevalent meme, because of how almost every security player falls into learning the ropes. For example; harmbatoning, which is also a meme, because of how often it happens. It is only after learning what to do, not do, how, when, why, etc, that if certain things are repeated, that it becomes an unironic use of shitsec. Or comdom. Or "Rouge". Or what have you. 

 

I'm not sure how it is derogatory, because it has never been, nor am I sure how it compares to "furry". If the meanings have evolved as such, then I must have missed a mile stone, in which the user demographics have drastically changed beyond the point of comparison. Shitsec used to mean "don't do that". If it is now a derogatory term, which compares to a term that dances on being a bannable offense, then it should be made known that insulting security dances on the line of being punishable. Officially, or unofficially, IC or OOC.

As far as kicking and screaming; it is more likely the people who use the word often; are doing so out of jokes, doing so out of intent to cause greytide, or intent to demoralize and aggravate. I strongly doubt the terms are used seriously in any real context, outside of shorthand, usually by staff. The people who use it are likely to not be very consistent in making an appearance, they probably aren't likely to care, and it is likely to be premeditated to find themselves in such a situation where they can spout off as such. IE; the problem, if it is indeed a problem to such a scale; then there is a troll problem, and not a child problem. Still children, but not the children you seem to imply. Which is probably really important to note, if no one has yet to note it.

To make that more clear; there are people who value their time, and people who don't. Then there are people who like to waste other peoples time; in this context, grey tide. Grey tide can log on, cause problems, leave, and not break any rules. Equally, so can security, but perhaps that is beside the point. People who are vested and immersed in a round, can have it broken by someone who doesn't care. If that happens once every round, ruining each one, and someone chooses to play for an entire day; they have effectively wasted their entire day, and they are likely to feel that. What did the other person waste? Nothing. They got what they wanted. Others simply don't value their time, and won't care if they have several rounds ruined or not. The motivations are different. Understanding that is kind of important.

[Benjaminfallout]

Be proactive- arrest criminals before they commit a crime.

This made me giggle like a school girl.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Benjaminfallout

[McRamon]

22 minutes ago, Benjaminfallout said:

Be proactive- arrest criminals before they commit a crime.

This made me giggle like a school girl.

What is this, a futurama reference?)

[Hairy Ban Jhankri]

28 minutes ago, Benjaminfallout said:

Be proactive- arrest criminals before they commit a crime.

Everybody is a criminal. They just haven't been found out, yet. Justice will be served. Even to CC officials. No one breaks the law, on my goddamn station. Not today. Not yesterday. Not tomorrow. Even in death, will criminal scum serve their time. Running when there is a wet floor sign up? Criminal. Otherwise why would they run? Janitor slips me with a wet floor? Criminal. Otherwise, why would they not use space cleaner? Clown makes a joke? Put them in their rightful place; perma. Don't let the crew get the idea that jokes are tolerated. We're here to work. Scientists make weapons for security? Take them. Then arrest that arms dealer, and put them away until the body rots. Medical saves the person you just beat? Accomplices and accessory to crime. Engineers don't agree to make security a fortress? Revolutionaries, obviously, otherwise they would want security to be secure. Chef doesn't make the food you want? Obviously poisoned the food. Botanists... druggies. Chaplain? Cultist in disguise. Steal their holy book for yourself. Barman? A drunk running around with a firearm. HOP? Giving away access, and I don't like it. Captain? Condom is now illegal, asshole. RD? Supplying those damned arms dealers. AI doesn't open a door to get the criminals? "Rouge". Cargo? Probably ordered weapons, at one point. We just haven't found them, yet. Mime? Doesn't speak. Hiding something. Atmos techs? Plotting to release plasma, fucking terrorists, not on my watch. Blueshield -suggests- that a head isn't a criminal? Impersonating an officer and meddling in security affairs will get you thrown away for a long time, bub. Hope you like eating twinkies and candy corn, that's all you'll be eating where we are sending you, guy. NT Rep, suggesting we aren't being productive? How about you be productive with a pick on the mining rock. All you get is a pair of shoes. Magistrate, thinks they know the law? I AM THE LAW! Lets see, who else? H-WHATS THIS, A LATE JOINED SEC OFFICER LET A CRIMINAL OUT OF THEIR CELL? Traitor. Warden suggests we can't possibly fit the entire crew into the cells? Lazy, dereliction of duty. HOS says we've gone too far? No longer fit for duty to lead. Congratulations, you are promoted to Head of Security, and you sit on your throne, as the prince of Cyber-Air.

 

EDIT: Also this 

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Hairy Ban Jhankri

[Malphystoh]

What makes a man turn neutral... >.<

 

 

[Spacemanspark]

/thread