Karma Role: Convict

[necaladun]

42 minutes ago, ZN23X said:

I agree with making it roundstart only. Doesn't make sense for a perma prisoner to just appear in perma mid round.

This also means sec know how many they have to deal with at the round start, and don't have to worry about any more appearing later.

[davidchan]

Alright, finally have a keyboard so lets hit the problems areas as people see them so far.

 

Job slots: At a minimum I'd like to see 2 but for a maximum I'm not sure I care if its hard or soft capped at 4 or even 6. The more convicts the station has the more they can use them as guinea pigs or to do hard labor others can't do, and I know several security mains that would basically have their convicts running a fight club in perma during slow or extended RP rounds.

Late Joins: It's been repeatedly suggested to have a Cryosleeper in Perma to begin with, though I haven't glanced into perma in a while to know if such a thing ever got added or if it would be difficult to do. So long as Security Channel gets a late join message there is little reason Security has to get worked up about a late join unless perma is breached, which frankly this just gives them a reason to get it fixed incase carp or something does smash it up.

Self-Antagging:  

Spoiler

Convicts who are daring may attempt to escape, and their Rules of Engagement would be somewhat loosened compared to otherwise loyal crew. They are not antags and should not act like them, though they would be allowed to attack Security and Crew alike (or threaten such violence) if it could reasonably be asserted to lead to their escape (such as holding a Doctor prisoner)

As already stated, they wouldn't not be given a license to grief and under normal circumstances attacking Crew or Security would only be when such an action could result in their freedom. A Convict ditching his Janitorial detail to run into maint would only be allowed to combat people in his way or actively attempting to detain him. (I.E. pushing down the maint assistant to run past them is fine, beating them repeatedly with a toolbox is not. Disarming and stealing an ID or equipment is acceptable, killing someone solely for the purpose of looting them is not.)

And as previously stated this works against the Convict more than for them, as they have no default equipment, PDA or tools (and they would generally be restricted form having such things without permission anyways). If a passing assistant wanted to assault a Convict on a detail, it would be a simple vandalism charge and not assault. If a convict is being violent or uncooperative then they'd be opening themself up for harsher treatment from security or even Forced Cyborgification if they took it too far.

Races: While not brought up much, I'd say to start that Karma races should be black listed at least until a perma remap could account for round start Vox and Plasmamen who could just break a window and float on to the asteroid or something.

Backgrounds: It's important to note that Convicts are Convicted of a crime but that doesn't necessarily mean they are guilty. While initially I was hoping to leave it free form enough that players would be able to choose which crime and background they'd be accused of, it seems we'll probably need something a bit more solid. An RNG system would need to be set up to randomly assign crimes to a convict (similar to the old XenoArch mad libs on items) that would vary from Grand Sabotage, Manslaughter, Mutiny, Murder, Attempted Murder or Grand Theft.  Some of these crimes could be considered accidental or unintentional, encouraging a player to be more nonviolent or repentant of their crime, while others would be more malicious and encourage a more resistive convict who would want to escape. Others, such as captured Agents, would potentially given a background with them aware that since they failed their mission they are likely marked for kill by their former Syndicate allies, or perhaps hoping that if they escape with something valuable to NT they might be able to regain their trust from their former employer. Alternatively, an Antagonist Convict might be a deep cover Agent assigned to kill or clean up any captured agents on the station (think Breaking Bad).

And of course, there could be falsely accused, framed or otherwise innocent Convicts who could attempt to plea with the local magistrate, lawyer or security personnel to review their file, seek out inconsistencies and compile the data into a Fax in hopes of CC determining they were wrongfully imprisoned and could be released.

 

Human Testing Initiative: A random event for cargo could be to receive a crate or two of experimental gear: weapons, tools, virus samples, medicines or other equipment, and given a directive to test upon a Human(oid) or other sentient organic under certain conditions and gather data to send back as test results to get rewards of points or other unique gear. Some of these tests would be insanely lethal, others might trigger bad events (like a SE turning the convict into a Blob) where as others till might demand testing a new kind of surgical tool on a specific type of internal injuries.

[Splgrk]

You could also volunteer them as gateway guinea pigs.

[davidchan]

I would urge against sending convicts through the gateway since its usually a one way trip, and SOP strongly implies Security is to look out for the well being of Convicts and revive them ASAP if/when they die.

 

Also would basically be a free escape attempt for the convict since they'd be evading custody.

Edited August 2, 2018 by davidchan

[Eler00]

Sending them through the gateway should be only if they volunteer, IMO. Same as being borged.

 

[Xyd]

Love the idea.

Round start only, and have it cost higher karma, probably around 15-25 or so.

I think language like "they wouldn't not be given a license to grief and under normal circumstances attacking Crew or Security would only be when such an action could result in their freedom." Too vague and open to interpretation, leading to the role being abused as a mini-antag. Simply have them obey normal crew rules, which basically means they can still try to break out of perma, etc, along with stealing ID's and such, no more different than say greytiding for example.

Definitely sounds like a good idea. Also encourages the warden in performing their duties on extended rounds, since perma is often empty on such rounds. Well, sometimes at least...

I do hope this gets implemented and doesn't get forgotten about.

Having them spawn with a 'notice' from cc telling/informing them of their rights (which they have none) along with general SOP concerning their status on the station could help avoid confusion with the role as well.

Another idea is to include them into traitor objectives. A traitor might be tasked with freeing the convict from perma for example.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Xyd

[Fursamie]

On 8/2/2018 at 10:53 AM, davidchan said:

The 'antag status' detected earlier was supposed to be a shoe in for the potential of failed or captured antag agents with goals or objectives to survive and escape, while regular convicts may not have had violence convictions and this would be more inclined to just do what it takes to survive a round or potential assassinations.

Wouldn’t this go for everyone? If I saw someone with a  gun and e-dagger running after me you fucking bet I’m gonna drop a banana peel and cave their skull in with a toolbox.

On 8/2/2018 at 3:52 PM, ZN23X said:

Could argue that anyone can take any role and make it antaggy. Rules exist and are enforced for everyone in every role.

Not.. Really? You can’t make a security officer antagonistic because their sole purpose is to fight those kinds of people. You can’t make a xenobiologist antaggy because their job is to research the new “Xeno” species - slimes. You can’t make the chef antaggy because their job is about cooking.

Have you noticed that none of these jobs/people have strong bonds to the Syndicate?A convict DOES, however. Failed “escape alive and free” agents, innit? So some people would think “If IC-wise, I used to be a syndicate agent, doesn’t that mean I can still act like one? Horay me! Time to go on a murder spree!!”

Also, more karma =/= trustworthy.

[ZN23X]

9 hours ago, Fursamie said:

Not.. Really? You can’t make a security officer antagonistic because their sole purpose is to fight those kinds of people. You can’t make a xenobiologist antaggy because their job is to research the new “Xeno” species - slimes. You can’t make the chef antaggy because their job is about cooking.

Have you noticed that none of these jobs/people have strong bonds to the Syndicate?A convict DOES, however. Failed “escape alive and free” agents, innit? So some people would think “If IC-wise, I used to be a syndicate agent, doesn’t that mean I can still act like one? Horay me! Time to go on a murder spree!!”

People have gotten banned for acting antag like as literally every single job on the station. That was my point. Same thing would happen if someone playing this role breaks the rules. Having IC justification for breaking rules doesn't give people the right to, and plenty of people break them without IC justification. If someone is dumb enough to think they can use this role as a means to subvert the rules then they'll be dealt with promptly.

[McRamon]

But this will happen and will give other players and admins trouble. And it is fun and games until 15-30 minutes into the round, after that security most likely won't have time to interact with  perma prisoners. I really see more negative things than positive in that idea.

[Fursamie]

1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

People have gotten banned for acting antag like as literally every single job on the station. 

My point was that because of the lenience on whether you could, say, kill that AFK warden coming to check on you and hold the station hostage while you arm up on the Armoury or not leads to confusion. “Is this too far” would be a question players ask when PM’d by admins on their antaggy behavior. There is no clear answer. One may think it’s ridiculous and the other may think nothing was wrong /because/ of the leeway given on a Convict’s antaggy behavior.

1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

Having IC justification for breaking rules doesn't give people the right to, and plenty of people break them without IC justification.

But Convicts - who DO have IC justification will beg to differ, as most (if not all) would believe that they’re special BECAUSE they have IC justification.

[BqRel]

I feel like the best way to handle it is to only give the "antag" status to convicts who are selected to be antags, just like any other role. Convicts could randomly be assigned a crime they were arrested for, ranging from non-violent to EoC territory. 

It's also countered by the karma cost, at least slightly. Even with a small cost, it would make people think twice before being a shitlord and wasting those karma points on nothing, and there's plenty of talk about making it cost more. Karma point rules seem to (mostly) be about roles with traits that make them noticeably different in roleplay (NT Rep, Magistrate), or something that could potentially be abused if left unchecked (Blueshield, Magistrate again), and I feel that the Convict role would fit nicely in both categories.

[Biffthegreat]

1 hour ago, Fursamie said:

My point was that because of the lenience on whether you could, say, kill that AFK warden coming to check on you and hold the station hostage while you arm up on the Armoury or not leads to confusion. “Is this too far” would be a question players ask when PM’d by admins on their antaggy behavior. There is no clear answer. One may think it’s ridiculous and the other may think nothing was wrong /because/ of the leeway given on a Convict’s antaggy behavior.

But Convicts - who DO have IC justification will beg to differ, as most (if not all) would believe that they’re special BECAUSE they have IC justification.

As far as I understand it...

Killing anyone SSD/AFK would be against the rules.

Killing the warden as a perma prisoner (unless an antag) would be against the rules.

Slipping the warden, stealing their ID and escaping wouldn't be. 

 

Consider the following (possible) convicts:

Convicted for distributing pacifist literature

Convicted for running black market sales of soap

Convicted for stealing station equipment

Convicted for industrial espionage

 

None of these would have an IC justification for any violence beyond slipping the warden and running off. Perhaps tazing/cuffing them. They would have no more IC reason to commit violence than any other member of crew who is brigged/permad, and if the role cost a reasonable amount of Karma, people wouldn't abuse it (twice).

 

[Fursamie]

9 hours ago, Biffthegreat said:

As far as I understand it...

Killing anyone SSD/AFK would be against the rules.

Killing the warden as a perma prisoner (unless an antag) would be against the rules.

Slipping the warden, stealing their ID and escaping wouldn't be. 

 

I didn’t actually mean it, it was supposed to be a joke. Aspiring comedian here

9 hours ago, Biffthegreat said:

Consider the following (possible) convicts:

Convicted for distributing pacifist literature

Convicted for running black market sales of soap

Convicted for stealing station equipment

Convicted for industrial espionage

 

None of these would have an IC justification for any violence beyond slipping the warden and running off. Perhaps tazing/cuffing them. They would have no more IC reason to commit violence than any other member of crew who is brigged/permad, and if the role cost a reasonable amount of Karma, people wouldn't abuse it (twice).

Well, first, I need to clarify something. I thought it would be like the survivor in CM, where the game whips up some randomly generated story and tells it to you via the chat when the round starts. And, it would be in your notes(memories) so you could check them at any time. OP said some convicts would be previous agents and would be ranked higher for the kill objective as they don’t want any loose ends.

Some people would take this as a bootleg antag token of sorts. Like an antag ticket. But you’re not really an antag. But the possible crimes you posted are good ideas. I would like to keep the convict down to any other mid round perma prisoner, only difference is that (unless they’re actually a traitor) won’t be associated with EoCs and are probably in perma for an accidental plasma leaking which some doofus on security who didn’t read space law deemed it grand sabotage. And they aren’t allowed to be more....physical when escaping, because (granted most of the time admins will know that convict1 took it too far but) admins aren’t Gods. They don’t know what is EXACTLY right or wrong in every situation, so they have to rely on their opinion. Which gets them shitted on in either ban appeals or admin complaints.

So, as said in another post, one admin may think the madman must be locked in a real jail for crippling the warden who came to check on them to the point where they just started speaking Chinese instead of en-.. Galatic common and one may think nothing was wrong with it.

also according to SoP just kill yourself once and they have to clone you - go back to perma without a fuss but do it again and assuming there’s enough biomass and nobody’s currently being cloned, you’ll get cloned automatically. EZ escape

[Aletmagne]

Honestly, the concept of convicts and security has so much going for it it could be an entirely new server. Not sure whether its scope can be reined back to fit into Paradise but its legit cool

[Splgrk]

On 8/2/2018 at 3:41 PM, davidchan said:

1 hour ago, Aletmagne said:

Honestly, the concept of convicts and security has so much going for it it could be an entirely new server. Not sure whether its scope can be reined back to fit into Paradise but its legit cool

That's just old prison station, isn't it? Is that still a thing?

[Aletmagne]

I had no idea that was a thing. I was thinking of that counterstrike gamemode where you have CTs as prison wardens