Let Chaplains Assist against Vampires

[Corocan]

So this suggestion is here to complete one objective and that's to explore the unique relationship that the Chaplain role has with the vampire antagonists.

Officially, Chaplains are not allowed to engage in any form of direct combat with vampires. It's considered validhunting and is generally looked down upon by staff. Some would even go as far to say that the Chaplain's overstepping their boundaries by getting involved in the affairs of any vampires period but I'll address why I think that's a massive misunderstanding and a general waste of the role.

Let's begin:

1. The Chaplain could be a fighting role if the round demands it.

We very often see the Chaplain used in cult rounds in a combative capacity. It's not uncommon (in fact one could argue it's almost mandatory) for the Chaplain to be used as an invaluable asset by security to assist in capturing, deconverting, and combating cultists. I see no reason why it should be any different for Chaplains on a vampire round. This role seems to be molded by a combination of creativity from the player and how that player reacts to the round. As a result, the Chaplain's duties are wide and versatile and should be allowed to extend to Vampire hunting if security allows it.

2. The Chaplain's SPECIAL.

Similarly to the clown's ability to speak in comic sans or the Mime's ability to create walls, some roles have completely unique and inborn abilities at round start that are designed to facilitate and expand upon their special role on the station. Chaplain probably has the best inborn abilities. On top of being a conduit for the GODS the chaplain is naturally immune to the vampires' abilities (glare, bites, etc.), similarly to how they're immune to Cult magics and conversions, which is why they're so heavily sought after during cult rounds. Why is this not the same for vampire rounds, more specifically why is it not allowed?

3. The Chaplain is specifically equip to deal with Vampires.

So hearkening back to my last point, the Chaplain has specific abilities that make them immune to the vampire's abilities. They also spawn with items that vampires are specifically weak to. Examples being:

As well as holy water, which vampires are deadly weak to, which Chaplains spawn with a flask of and also the ability to make more out of any regular water.

These are invaluable counters to vampires and they're specifically made to help deal with vampires so why is it not ok for security to employ Chaplains to assist in hunting a vampire?

 

So to wrap this up, I'm not saying that Chaplains, upon realizing it's a vampire round, should be allowed to don their crusader armor, grab some beads and a sword and go to town hacking apart anyone who's bumbling about maintenance. What I am saying, is that, similarly to cult rounds, they should be allowed to supplement security in matters strictly pertaining to the apprehension (or extermination) of vampires. If you don't want this to be the case, remove these functions from Chaplain because they're clearly indicative that it should be.

 

I'm personally looking for more of an administrative mindset to this, but I am curious what the playerbase thinks as well. From what I gather, there's no concrete consensus on this issue, so I'd like to take this opportunity to bring it into the light so we can maybe get that concrete consensus in an open, public discussion. Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Corocan

[Fursamie]

I think why it's almost taboo to fight vampires as a chaplain is because most of their powers which most of the time they desperately need doesn't work on the chaplain/works to a lesser extent on the chaplain. AND, you're REQUIRED to have the chaplain bless a watertank or something to deconvert cultists, but you don't really need the chaplain to catch a vampire and then throw them in perma.

[WingedYordle]

 

No, but I could agree with this if the vampire was high powered. Security could use the chaplain as a partner, so not front lines, but allow as back up. We would lose less officers this way and less equipment to the highly experienced vampire

Edited August 26, 2018 by Trubus

[Corocan]

12 minutes ago, Fursamie said:

I think why it's almost taboo to fight vampires as a chaplain is because most of their powers which most of the time they desperately need doesn't work on the chaplain/works to a lesser extent on the chaplain.

Well, in all honestly, the Vampire's abilities are quite strong against anyone who isn't the Chaplain, so I feel like having one person who can nullify your abilities is a fair trade for a free stun, screech, jaunting, and xray. Additionally, conventional methods of fighting the Chaplain still exist. The Chaplain's immunity to these abilities doesn't tilt the favor in one way or the other; it merely levels the playing field.

 

12 minutes ago, Fursamie said:

AND, you're REQUIRED to have the chaplain bless a watertank or something to deconvert cultists, but you don't really need the chaplain to catch a vampire and then throw them in perma.

The same is true of cultists, actually. You don't need the Chaplain to beat the cult, but it certainly helps a hell of a lot if you do. As for the holy water, Chemistry can make holy water with just some wine and mercury, neither of which are at all hard to get. The only reason the Chaplain gets tasked with the holy water is they can bless an entire tank very quickly, which will typically be enough to supply for an entire round.

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Corocan

[Corocan]

1 minute ago, Trubus said:

No.

Why not?

[WingedYordle]

Just now, Corocan said:

Why not?

The no was more so directed to Fursamie.

[Fursamie]

1 hour ago, Corocan said:

The same is true of cultists, actually. You don't need the Chaplain to beat the cult, but it certainly helps a hell of a lot if you do. As for the holy water, Chemistry can make holy water with just some wine and mercury, neither of which are at all hard to get. The only reason the Chaplain gets tasked with the holy water is they can bless an entire tank very quickly, which will typically be enough to supply for an entire round.

 

I forgot about how chemists and chemical researchers can make holy water, my bad. But with cultists, you don't get deconverted instantly and you don't get deconverted at all if you aren't given a certain amount of holy water (forgot the exact amount of units). If the bartender is trying the role out or in general inexperienced, you would get a fat halt there. Same with if they ARE a competent barkeeper, most likely they'll get tired of the same chemist/scientist asking for wine for the 37th time. A chemist or 3 making holy water for security would gurantee a cult win, since they can't make it fast enough and in such large quantities to deal with a cult almost twice security's size. 

[necaladun]

It's very easy to be able to assist against cultists/vampires as a chaplain:

Get permission from the HoS, then go to the HoP, and get hired as security.

 

This goes the same for really any other job - if you want to help fight antags, join sec.

[Alliostra]

Side question: do vampires take extra damage from being shot with crossbow bolts? I paid with a crossbow for a spacepod  once during a vampire round because "vampires are vulnerable to rods through the heart.", but is that actually true?

[Irkalla]

43 minutes ago, Alliostra said:

Side question: do vampires take extra damage from being shot with crossbow bolts? I paid with a crossbow for a spacepod  once during a vampire round because "vampires are vulnerable to rods through the heart.", but is that actually true?

I feel sorry that this myth is still alive. Its some bullshit I said when I was a vamp once and it seems to still live on. No they dont take any extra damage.

[Kyet]

Sec Officers:

• Many exist
• More can be sent by centcom if you increase job slots
• More can be hired from crew, and the extras can do the job just as well
• Many copies of their gear exist, and more can be obtained

 

With Chaplains:

• Only one exists
• You cannot increase job slots to hire more if that one is permanently lost
• You cannot hire them from crew either, because while you can give them the job title, the job title does NOT confer chaplain powers
• Only one copy of their gear exists, some of their gear becomes unremovable once equipped, and getting replacements for their gear is difficult
• Practically, chaplains likely have special knowledge of how to use holy water that the average sec officer does not have

 

Given the great disparity above, it simply does not make sense for the chaplain to be wandering the station during cult/vampire rounds.

They should stay in sec, blessing water tanks, administering doses of holy water, and helping protect the brig.

 

Yes, they might be able to help on the front lines, but:

• They're effectively impossible to replace short of admin intervention, and your anti-cult/vampire efforts will be severely hurt without them, so... can you really afford to risk losing them?
• They're quite likely to be a target of the vampires/cult. So... they may need to stay in secure areas for their own safety.
• If they're killed, and sec doesn't realize it, a fake replacement chaplain can do an insane amount of damage, for example, by providing fake holy water that enables vampires/cultists to avoid being identified, or even escape.

 

For all of these reasons, chaplains shouldn't be going full crusader during cult/vampire rounds.

If they want to help, they should be staying in the brig, assisting with prisoners, while sec watches their back.

Going rambo as chaplain in these round types can really cripple the station's ability to respond to threats.

If you die... that's it. You probably won't get replaced, and nobody else can do your job.

 

The only big reason to leave the brig as chaplain during confirmed cult/vampire rounds is to use your book to erase cult runes.

That can be a major help, and is worth doing... but you should probably take at least one sec officer with you when you do so.

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by tzo

[bryanayalalugo]

With cult, chaplains are somewhat essentially, as they can provide quick access to holy water and be able to remove runes, if they have the null rod that is.

With vampires, while the chaplain is immune to their powers, chaplain isn't really essential in most cases, besides providing holy water for testing.

And with chaplains, roundstart vampires, which are usually very weak, are even weaker against the chaplains who not only are immune to vampire powers, but also have access to a weapon. In a lot of cases, chaplains would simply default to murder, the vampire in question cremated/left for dead, and the chaplain resulting uncharged for being a murderous vigilante (or complaining a lot if the rare occurrence of them being charged with murder).

[ZN23X]

We already have a problem with vampires being meta and disposing of the chaplain early to make it difficult to get holy water. Making the chaplain even more of a threat will make this worse.

That + echoing everything @tzo said.

Also never seen a chaplain fighting against cultists. They might get caught in the thick of things while trying to get rid of runes but I'm pretty sure a chaplain actively fighting cultists is valid hunting as well.

[Corocan]

2 hours ago, tzo said:

Sec Officers:

• Many exist - This is varied and depends on how many people sign up for security on roundstart.
• More can be sent by centcom if you increase job slots - Also depends on how many people sign up for the role.
• More can be hired from crew, and the extras can do the job just as well - This is extremely risky to do and is generally unconventional due to the possibility a manifest hire could be EoC, which is why you won't see it very often unless security is desperate enough for an ERT but CC can't send one.
• Many copies of their gear exist, and more can be obtained - A fair point but security's gear pales in comparison to the Chaplain's gear's effects.

 

With Chaplains:

• Only one exists - Yes, this is a natural risk in using the Chaplain. They're an extremely valuable asset and if you lose it then tough luck buttercup.
• You cannot increase job slots to hire more if that one is permanently lost - See above.
• You cannot hire them from crew either, because while you can give them the job title, the job title does NOT confer chaplain powers - See above. x2
• Only one copy of their gear exists, some of their gear becomes unremovable once equipped, and getting replacements for their gear is difficult
• Practically, chaplains likely have special knowledge of how to use holy water that the average sec officer does not have

 

Given the great disparity above, it simply does not make sense for the chaplain to be wandering the station during cult/vampire rounds.

They should stay in sec, blessing water tanks, administering doses of holy water, and helping protect the brig.

Wandering the station on a vampire/cult round isn't necessarily what I had in mind, nor is it something Chaplains are prevented from doing if they so wish. Chaplains are however specifically bared from participating in the capture or destruction of vampires, which makes no sense given their in-game functionality that suggests they were meant for more than a "bless this holy tank now never leave the brig" role.

Yes, they might be able to help on the front lines, but:

• They're effectively impossible to replace short of admin intervention, and your anti-cult/vampire efforts will be severely hurt without them, so... can you really afford to risk losing them? A dead chaplain is a blow against the crew, sure, but it's not a death blow. Utilizing a Chaplain as an effective support role for security against vampires is worth it, in my opinion, but should ultimately be left to Command's discretion. Chaplains shouldn't be prohibited by server rules to participate assuming all the proper channels are adhered to (Going through Captain, Head of Security, proper adhering to space law, etc.)
• They're quite likely to be a target of the vampires/cult. So... they may need to stay in secure areas for their own safety. So are security but they're still utilized to go about the station. And once again, this is more of a strategic decision to keep the Chaplain safe (Which is still a valid strategy!) and not really a discussion on why it's prohibited by server rules.
• If they're killed, and sec doesn't realize it, a fake replacement chaplain can do an insane amount of damage, for example, by providing fake holy water that enables vampires/cultists to avoid being identified, or even escape. If a Cultist/Vampire can appropriately impersonate the Chaplain, then Security either isn't paying attention OR they've gone through great lengths to properly mask their identity, both of which are just facets of the game and allowing the Chaplain to assist Security directly has no real bearing on that, as it could happen on ANY round.

 

For all of these reasons, chaplains shouldn't be going full crusader during cult/vampire rounds.

I've already discussed exactly what I had in mind when suggesting this idea (Which is not "going full crusader"), so I'll just go ahead and quote the original excerpt from the first post:

11 hours ago, Corocan said:

So to wrap this up, I'm not saying that Chaplains, upon realizing it's a vampire round, should be allowed to don their crusader armor, grab some beads and a sword and go to town hacking apart anyone who's bumbling about maintenance. What I am saying, is that, similarly to cult rounds, they should be allowed to supplement security in matters strictly pertaining to the apprehension (or extermination) of vampires. If you don't want this to be the case, remove these functions from Chaplain because they're clearly indicative that it should be.

 

If they want to help, they should be staying in the brig, assisting with prisoners, while sec watches their back.

That's completely contrary to the Warden's job description, which is to deal with the prisoners. Anyone can do this, but the Chaplain's special abilities are unique to them and serve no advantage to the crew by being forced to be wasted in processing.

Going rambo as chaplain in these round types can really cripple the station's ability to respond to threats.

I completely agree actually, but assuming the proper channels are adhered to and Command makes the decision to allow this, it shouldn't be a bannable offense.

If you die... that's it. You probably won't get replaced, and nobody else can do your job.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, as anyone can do anything the Chaplain does in your standard run of the mill Vampire/Cult round? What they cannot do, however, is be immune to Cult magics/Vampire abilities, which is entirely moot if you're dead set on keeping the Chaplain as far away from the fight as possible.

The only big reason to leave the brig as chaplain during confirmed cult/vampire rounds is to use your book to erase cult runes.

Anyone can do this with Soap. The only real difference is the Chaplain can break any Talisman of Veiling/Disguising used to hide runes somewhere.

That can be a major help, and is worth doing... but you should probably take at least one sec officer with you when you do so.

Precisely. The Chaplain is too vital to just let loose on the station with a taser and a badge. Not only is this a waste, but it's a major liability, like you mentioned above. They should partner with security and assist on patrols or on reports of occult activity, NOT sit in the chapel and respond to every report like a vigilante.

 

In summary, everything you've mentioned above has been more so on why a Chaplain's involvement could be a bad idea ICly if handled by the wrong people, but not so much on why it's necessary to be a server rule, which is more so the topic of debate.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, bryanayalalugo said:

With cult, chaplains are somewhat essentially, as they can provide quick access to holy water and be able to remove runes, if they have the null rod that is.

With vampires, while the chaplain is immune to their powers, chaplain isn't really essential in most cases, besides providing holy water for testing.

This is not an essential function of the chaplain, but more so one of convenience, as any one can make holy water.

 

2 hours ago, bryanayalalugo said:

And with chaplains, roundstart vampires, which are usually very weak, are even weaker against the chaplains who not only are immune to vampire powers, but also have access to a weapon. In a lot of cases, chaplains would simply default to murder, the vampire in question cremated/left for dead, and the chaplain resulting uncharged for being a murderous vigilante (or complaining a lot if the rare occurrence of them being charged with murder).

I'd argue roundstart vampires are not weak, as it's not uncommon to see a fully powered vampire within 15-20 minutes of roundstart. Additionally, if a vampire gets caught that early, it's very likely security won't have a problem apprehending them

I can understand your fear of the potential murderbone, however, this is why I've suggested that the Chaplains have to go through security and even then they're still subject to Space Law. Besides, we already see security executing and cremating underpowered vampires all. the. time. so this fear isn't something that's specific to a Chaplain, anyways.

 

 

1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

We already have a problem with vampires being meta and disposing of the chaplain early to make it difficult to get holy water. Making the chaplain even more of a threat will make this worse.

That's not really meta, that's just a good idea because it'll hamper Security's efforts in the future. I feel like that's akin to saying it's meta to try and kill the Blueshield if the Captain is your target, or something.

 

1 hour ago, ZN23X said:

Also never seen a chaplain fighting against cultists. They might get caught in the thick of things while trying to get rid of runes but I'm pretty sure a chaplain actively fighting cultists is valid hunting as well.

That's debatable, as it usually depends on whether or not security has been decimated and the Chaplain is the only real person who can turn the tide against the cult. Personally, I've seen situations where the Chaplain has taken up a sword against the Cult's constructs or aided Security in raids against a cult base on several occasions, though usually it's in the name of destroying runes or cult artifacts, but similar logic could be applied to Vampires if the staff would just allow it in an official capacity.

[ZN23X]

2 hours ago, Corocan said:

That's not really meta, that's just a good idea because it'll hamper Security's efforts in the future. I feel like that's akin to saying it's meta to try and kill the Blueshield if the Captain is your target, or something.

Whether you want to call it meta or not it doesn't disprove my point. This change would cause experienced vamps to make sure they make more of a point to eliminate the chaplain due to them being a larger threat, and it would make inexperienced vamps lives even harder. This change would not enhance vampire rounds.

If you've seen rounds where the chaplain was hunting cultists then you and any observers failed to report valid hunting. While admins are capable of seeing everything, they are not omnipresent. Or you weren't aware of the stuff that may have been happening behind the curtains. You don't know if the chaplains were bwoinked or banned for doing so. Many people do many things that they aren't supposed to do frequently, and you'll frequently find them falling SSD with no hope of recovery. Just because you've seen someone break a rule doesn't mean you are allowed to do it.

Edited August 27, 2018 by ZN23X

[McRamon]

I dont like when experts nullify newbies tator round experience, and chaplains going on killing spree every time it is cult or vamp round.

 

What if, what if we do not allow chaplains to do that on a daily basis, since chaplain should not even have combat experience, but instead we add 45 karma locked custom chaplain title which would be inquisitor and mechanically would be the same as normal chaplain, but also would mean chaplain has combat experience and his side mission would be also purging the unclean.

[Fursamie]

1 hour ago, McRamon said:

I dont like when experts nullify newbies tator round experience, and chaplains going on killing spree every time it is cult or vamp round.

 

What if, what if we do not allow chaplains to do that on a daily basis, since chaplain should not even have combat experience, but instead we add 45 karma locked custom chaplain title which would be inquisitor and mechanically would be the same as normal chaplain, but also would mean chaplain has combat experience and his side mission would be also purging the unclean.

45 karma for just extra RP is bogus. Only reason people play IPC is because "goddamnit its the FUTURE how are you NOT gonna have machines", and its 15 karma. Don't quote me on that tho

[McRamon]

Well i imagine something like that should be expensive. Like, imagine a security commissar who is allowed to execute anyone anywhere. Power like this should be given only to people who are trusted enough to not abuse such power. I think chaplain who is allowed to pick up blessed shotgun, get secborg behind and roam maints looking for unlucky newbie vamps, which are trying to get better at game, should be pretty expensive karma-wise. Anyway this is just a suggestion which most likely wont even be noticed.

9 minutes ago, Fursamie said:

45 karma for just extra RP is bogus. Only reason people play IPC is because "goddamnit its the FUTURE how are you NOT gonna have machines", and its 15 karma. Don't quote me on that tho

 

[Fursamie]

Didn't I say don't quote me on that?

But seriously, karma will never excuse getting to ruin people's rounds prematurely. Ending newbie vamp rounds and having ooc/karma justification is bullshit, so is a security commissar that can execute anyone anywhere, people would save up karma just to abuse this very aspect.

[Corocan]

15 hours ago, ZN23X said:

This change would cause experienced vamps to make sure they make more of a point to eliminate the chaplain due to them being a larger threat, and it would make inexperienced vamps lives even harder.

You say that as though experienced vampires would have no problem disposing of the Chaplain, but later say that inexperienced vampires will get crushed by one. The Chaplain's immune to most of the Vampire's abilities, so it's not really about being an experienced or inexperienced vampire, but being an experienced or inexperienced player, so I don't think your notion that this puts new vampires at an unfair disadvantage holds any water.

As for the inexperienced vamps lives becoming harder, that's what happens when you're new at something. You're not going to be good at it right off the bat. Artificially making the crew's lives harder by forcing Chaplains to be specifically prohibited doesn't change this fact one iota. If you're a bad vampire, you're going to get caught or die and that's just how it is. That player will very likely have another opportunity to antag again someday and they will learn to adapt their play style to get around these elements. Antagonists already have a large selection of tools at their disposal to help them combat the crew's efforts and it's their jobs to use these to the best of their abilities to complete their objectives.

Chaplains are already targeted by cult on cult rounds and they very often survive regardless of this fact (In fact, they're targeted for just doing what they do already). I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the Antagonists' job is to be an antagonist. Sometimes that involves killing a player and keeping them out of the round. In fact, most antagonists have objectives specifically dedicated to assassinating players already so I don't think your claim that it'll ruin the Chaplain's round, in an unfair way, makes any sense either.

15 hours ago, McRamon said:

I dont like when experts nullify newbies tator round experience.

14 hours ago, Fursamie said:

Ending newbie vamp rounds

Nobody likes getting dunked on, but that's all about the learning experience. SS13 is a cooperative game, but for the antag's case, they are against the crew which means they are competing against the various elements dedicated to thwarting their efforts. Antags have a lot of good tools at their disposal and more relaxed rule sets to complete their objectives. They'll learn to get better, as everyone does, I promise.

 

16 hours ago, McRamon said:

What if, what if we do not allow chaplains to do that on a daily basis, since chaplain should not even have combat experience, but instead we add 45 karma locked custom chaplain title which would be inquisitor and mechanically would be the same as normal chaplain, but also would mean chaplain has combat experience and his side mission would be also purging the unclean.

Well, firstly, I don't think that if this rule gets relaxed that we'll see combat Chaplains as a regular thing. There's also nothing forcing the Chaplain to do anything in the first place, merely creating room for the possibility. Additionally, I don't think a karma locked role is going to prevent any of the things you're afraid of as we still see stuff like Redshields. IC Command should be the ones regulating, and punishing if need be, the actions of the little Van Helsing.

[necaladun]

One of the big reasons for anti-validhunting rules is that non-sec hunting antags aren't held to the same standards etc as security.

 

Again, it's really easy to assist against vampries and cultists as a chaplain:

Ask the HoS to let you join security.

[Allfd]

I share Neca's concerns.

I also don't know that converting the Chaplin from an RP role to a PvP one is a direction that would be good to move in.  Further Vampires are not KOS.  Making them kill on sight adds another antag class into the PvP realm, and another game mode into PvP.   We already have NukeOps, Wizard, Shadowlings, and Changelings for that.  If anything we should remove the inquisitor gear from the priest and have it be something from cargo or CentCom.

[Corocan]

1 hour ago, Allfd said:

I also don't know that converting the Chaplin from an RP role to a PvP one is a direction that would be good to move in.  Further Vampires are not KOS.  Making them kill on sight adds another antag class into the PvP realm, and another game mode into PvP.

I agree with this concern and would like to point out I never said that the Chaplain should have the god given right to kill the Vampires. Even if the Vampires are Vampires, they're still protected by Space Law and shouldn't be killed without good reason from Space Law. Even from an IC perspective, it makes perfect sense for them to be adversaries. Furthermore, the Chaplain has no obligation, even, to engage in any form of combat with the Vampire and may remain a strictly roleplay role if they choose.

 

I understand the concerns with making this an official change, but, in my mind, the Chaplain would operate with the same exact RoE that Security is required to work with. I think Necaladun's suggestion is an excellent middle ground for this idea and requires no real change in the rule set, so I'm going to go ahead and request this thread be locked since there's a viable alternative I never really considered available.

 

Thanks for your input everyone!

Edited August 28, 2018 by Corocan

[ID404NotFound]

making a karma role that basically says it's ok to fight/murder, etc also doesn't work for stopping abuse, as the karma system doesnt reward being "good" etc, it rewards making buddies.

[ZN23X]

I just don't see the point of making things even harder for new players. I don't underatand how this change would enhance the rounds for anyone but a trigger happy chaplain. Neca has explained how you can work around this IC. Its never gonna be the permanent change you are aiming for so keep argueing till your fingers fall off. Good luck