esven Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 It's way too common for players to decide that they don't need or want to be knocked out for surgery, especially players where this is more difficult like the Vox. From a game play perspective there is no reason for them to want the anesthetic since it makes you completely vulnerable and doesn't in any way make the procedure go any more smoothly or do anything for you. I feel that to compensate the chance for surgery to fail should be increased massively for awake patients and that they should be spammed with messages indicating just how much pain they are in. As well kicking or flailing at the surgeon should probably be a possibility for players that can feel pain. Perhaps if you wanted to allow people who are awake to be operated on you could add lidocaine to the chem recipes, basically a numbing agent that can be injected into the extremities, eyes, and head so you can do more minor surgeries like bone repair, or surgeries on the brain or eyes which are done with nothing but a local anesthetic anyway. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 It still needs to be more then possible to do it without anesthesia or else ghetto surgery's will be useless. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
esven Posted June 19, 2014 Author Posted June 19, 2014 It still needs to be more then possible to do it without anesthesia or else ghetto surgery's will be useless. You could always just buff the success rates for ghetto surgical tools to compensate for the new added source of failure. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 And maybe rods or other objects could be used to bite down so there isn't as much screaming. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampyrBytes Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I've been in this situation numerous times as I usually play a geneticist, which leaves me susceptible to the bone breaking disorder. When I've also found the no breathe SE, the usual anesthetic doesn't work on me. I let the surgeon know that the anesthetic isn't going to work and then go along with how they choose to play it. Most tend to just carve me up while I'm awake, during which I make appropriate emotes to show the torture they're putting me through. The best surgeons head off to chem and get some sleep toxins for me. However, they are much fewer. The point being, it's not just the patients that choose the easy route, most surgeons will opt for the easier option too. My concern is that the added risk of failure wouldn't change the surgeon's attitude, and people would end up dying because of lazy surgeons... and when you're talking about Vox you've got the added problems that trying to clone them involves, which could lead to someone being taken out of the round because of a broken leg Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
esven Posted June 19, 2014 Author Posted June 19, 2014 I've been in this situation numerous times as I usually play a geneticist, which leaves me susceptible to the bone breaking disorder. When I've also found the no breathe SE, the usual anesthetic doesn't work on me. I let the surgeon know that the anesthetic isn't going to work and then go along with how they choose to play it. Most tend to just carve me up while I'm awake, during which I make appropriate emotes to show the torture they're putting me through. The best surgeons head off to chem and get some sleep toxins for me. However, they are much fewer. The point being, it's not just the patients that choose the easy route, most surgeons will opt for the easier option too. My concern is that the added risk of failure wouldn't change the surgeon's attitude, and people would end up dying because of lazy surgeons... and when you're talking about Vox you've got the added problems that trying to clone them involves, which could lead to someone being taken out of the round because of a broken leg Maybe but I don't think it will play out that way, most surgeons now push to use anesthesia and it doesn't even do anything. Doctors do actually generally want to save their patients. As for cloning though, on most other servers I've seen clonex consumes plasma in its production, and the chem dispensers can't just be hacked. So cloning isn't even always an option unless mining is doing their job. Compared to other servers it's amazingly convenient to clone people, all you need to clone Vox really is a tank of N2 anyway which isn't even that much of a challenge, or if you want you can just load them up with a massive amount of dexalin plus after they pop out of the tube. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkPark Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I always ask my patients if they want anesthetic/sleep toxin. Either way it's fine for me, I roleplay it out as they being a very strong minded person for not wanting anesthetic during surgery. I don't think players should be punished for not wanting anesthesia, I do not care for it in situations like aliens almost bursting out of your chest, and I find the alien extraction surgery already long enough without adding in the preparation time. I support the idea of local anesthesia/numbing agent Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone White Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I totally support adding a failure % chance on concious players who can feel pain. This goes hand in hand with a failure % rate for operating on non surgical tables (the reason I added surgical table construction to plasteel recently). This is something I was talking about with ponies recently. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDemonic Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 The amount of times I have been refused anesthesia when I scream for it after they start chopping my chest open with a scalpel is amazing I usually emote and if the surgery is something bad act traumatized afterwards It still needs to be more then possible to do it without anesthesia or else ghetto surgery's will be useless. Couldn't you strangle them until they go unconscious? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
necaladun Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I do like the idea of a random chance of them screaming/twitching causing the tools to slip. Balance issues arise when it comes to people who are unable to receive it, and ghetto surgery. From an RP perspective, I like to scream I'm being tortured (over comms is also great) if they forget. Unless it's Novus Lem, who refuses it, screams throughout it that flesh is weak, and pain is an illusion. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fathuran Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 Yep, I play surgeon a lot, and I get a bit annoyed OOCly when characters decline anesthetic. For Vox I whip up sleep toxin, but I find people's reasons for declining to be amusing, such as "I've felt worse," "I don't trust any of you," et cetera. Which is hilarious to me, because surgery without anesthetic, whether on purpose or by accident, is a very, very painful experience and can lead to long term psychological issues at times. The ONLY time I ever operate without anesthetic is for alien embryos. There simply isn't any time. Aside from that, I give people who refuse anesthetic a choice, either they accept anesthetic, or they don't consent to surgery. I've had a captain walk around with a ruptured lung and broken ribs because they consistently refused anesthetic. They kept arguing, "I can handle it, I need to be awake in case anything goes wrong." What did our doctors do? Nothing. I and others argued that it's terribly unethical and it goes against our oath as practitioners of medicine to do such a thing, so he kept coming back every 20 or so minutes to see if anyone would operate on him without putting him to sleep. Finally, the CMO said, "Fine, I'll operate on you," and as soon as the captain got on the table, he injected him with chloral hydrate, knocking him right the hell out so we can properly operate on em. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streaky Haddock Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I still make time for anaesthetic with alien embryos. I've only had one burst on me, out of like twelve. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radman2307 Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I usually play Surgeon and I've gotta say I ALWAYS knock my patients out with anesthetic unless they are literally on the brink but even then I'd generally knock'em out first. It's just really bad form/IP. Perhaps make it an admin rule that any Surgeon who conducts routine Surgeries without Anesthetic get a temp job ban - just a thought. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bone White Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I do like the idea of a random chance of them screaming/twitching causing the tools to slip. This already applies to surgeons who have shakes from e.g. high caffine dosage. Only makes sense to have to apply to the patient as well. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
esven Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 I do like the idea of a random chance of them screaming/twitching causing the tools to slip. This already applies to surgeons who have shakes from e.g. high caffine dosage. Only makes sense to have to apply to the patient as well. Doesn't coffee contain hyperzine. I'm pretty sure that's what causes the twitching during surgery. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Pretty sure it does unless no-fun-bay changed it. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qinetix Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Pretty sure it does unless no-fun-bay changed it. Just pour it into a beaker and plop it into the chem dispenser to find out. Or ask the bartender to see what is in your cup Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumiluntti Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 all you need to clone Vox really is a tank of N2 anyway which isn't even that much of a challenge, or if you want you can just load them up with a massive amount of dexalin plus after they pop out of the tube. The clone dies to oxygen poisoning before popping out of the tube if you do not disable the cloning pods power from the APC, this needs a borg or engineer to be present. Even if you succeed on that, you need to pray for the binary gods that you do not lag too much and get the antitox running and the tank on the poor bastard with sonic speeds. Now you have half finished clone, screaming for the sweet release of death. Dexalin has jack shit to do with the Vox cloning. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undoer Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Whilst I agree, I also disagree. For a lot of surgery, especially optional surgery, it makes sense to be knocked out first, but on the other hand I recently (read: A fair while ago) lost a Traitor round (Steal Corgi Meat, Escape alive and free), despite not doing anything to raise suspicion (Heck, Ian being missing wasn't even mentioned on the radio), simply because a nosy Surgeon decided to snoop through my bags, and my box, whilst performing Appendicitis Surgery, then leaving me on N2 until the round ended. Frankly, it was frustrating, and in future I'll be insisting on minor surgery (Such as Appendicitis) being done without being knocked out. I think a Local Anaesthetic would make more sense, many people IRL prefer to be awake through surgery, so it's not like it's crazy to presume people prefer to be awake through SS13 surgery (IC'ly, that is). Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 Seems rather like powergaming, adminhelp might have worked there. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigercat2000 Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 To be honest, this really should be implemented, but at the same time, I really don't want it to be. It makes it too easy for traitor surgeons. Then again, I am probably just paranoid that everyone wants my head. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 That is another thing to consider. Could having that make it too easy for antags? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldrin-Kanthos Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 I have about a 66% survival rate of surgery with anesthesia. Antag surgeons are powerful. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-7949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Me Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 Unless a patient was securely strapped to the surgery table (or such), I would totally understand the increase in failing the operation (unless you feel no pain of course... do all other races feel pain?). I would perform surgery on a patient without anesthetic, sleep-toxin or heavy intoxication under six conditions: 1. There is no avaliable anesthetic, sleep-toxin or alcoholic beverage avaliable, and the patient will die unless the procedure is performed. 2. Internal bleeding. I quickly inject 5-15u of inaprovaline, hook IV with correct blood type and hurry on with procedure. When stopped, I scan them and do regular preperations for further procedures. :shock: 3. Alien embroy. I hurry on with procedure right away. When stopped, I scan them and do regular preperations for further procedures. :? 4. Under infliction of pain or threats, I’d probably perform the surgery if it would help the patient. :oops: 5. If someone threatened someone with say, a gun, I’d of couse perfom the surgery. 6. A head giving me a direct order to get on with it. If a character said something like "Manly, manly, man-mac-manly! Though as stones! My father and grandfather did this!" or any such bullcrap, I'd tell em to get a heads approval or get my complete refusal. It totally varies on the character though. If I’d ever make my Ripper Doc Black Marketeer, I’d simply give them a shot of whiskey, cuff’em stuck to a rollerbed (does that work?), stick a gag in their mouth and whisper “Hush, this will be over soon…” before picking up the nearby glass-shard/scalpel with a smile... Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-8309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted June 27, 2014 Posted June 27, 2014 Fireaxes should be a valid part of ghetto surgery. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/1419-players-should-be-punished-for-declining-anesthesia/#findComment-8318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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